VPPs and Active Point Limits

[SableWyvern]

How is the Active Point value of a VPP calculated?

 

Specifically, say a game has a 60AP limit. Does this allow for a VPP with a 60 point pool and a 30 point control cost (theoretically, up to 60 points for the control cost once advantages are applied) OR a combined maximum of 60 points between the pool and the control cost (meaning a 40 - 20 split if the control cost is not advantaged)?

 

Thanks in advance for lending me your wisdom.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

I go with the reserve.

 

If a campaign has a 60 point cap, you don't count the active point cap of the reserve and the slots, so that is how I go with VPPs.

[caris]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

How is the Active Point value of a VPP calculated?

 

Specifically, say a game has a 60AP limit. Does this allow for a VPP with a 60 point pool and a 30 point control cost (theoretically, up to 60 points for the control cost once advantages are applied) OR a combined maximum of 60 points between the pool and the control cost (meaning a 40 - 20 split if the control cost is not advantaged)?

 

Thanks in advance for lending me your wisdom.

 

First and best answer: ask the GM.

 

Beyond that it is hard to say. Most GMs that I've played with are leery of VPPs to begin with, and actively discourage them. Most of those GMs would probably combine the pool and control cost and compare it to their campaigns active limit cost.

 

Personally, if I were to allow the player to have a VPP (not something that I let a novice player have), I would only look at the pool size for campaign active point limits, but the pool would not be allowed to reach campaign max, unless it was highly limited in sfx and what could reasonably be built with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

From the FAQ:

 

What’s the overall Active Point cost of a Variable Power Pool?

 

Technically there isn’t one — generally speaking what matters for games with Active Point caps is the size of the Pool, not the overall cost of the VPP. But if you absolutely have to derive one for some reason, use the cost of the Pool, plus the Control Cost with any Advantages applied.

 

Personally I would look at the Pool and what the VPP is trying to accomplish, not how many points are spent on it.

[Zed-F]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

I would use the pool reserve size for the AP limit. However, your GM may want to assign additional limitations on the size of the pool, for instance if you can put limitations on your pool powers to increase the number of real points worth of powers you can squeeze into it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

I would count the AP as the pool. However, this is on the basis that I view AP limits as limits on powers. Frameworks aren't powers, they are vehicles to hold powers. The largest power the VPP can hold sets the AP of the VPP.

 

I would also allow a player in, say, a 60 AP cap game to have a 90 point (for example) VPP so long as he accepted the restriction that no single power in the VPP could exceed 60 AP, set as a -0 limitation.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Frameworks aren't powers' date=' they are vehicles to hold powers. [/quote']

 

Hey does that mean in your games I get my frameworks at a 1:5 cost?

[SableWyvern]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

First up, I should clarify that I am the GM.

 

Secondly, to those who are leery of putting VPPs in the hands of the inexperienced (which would include both myself and my players), if I do end up with one or more characters with VPPs, they aren't going to be of the wide-open variety -- for example, a while back I was toying with the idea of using a VPP to simulate a herbalist's concoctions, in which case the VPP would be limited to containing a range of pre-designed herbal mixtures.

 

I am interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this comment:

 

I would also allow a player in' date=' say, a 60 AP cap game to have a 90 point (for example) VPP so long as he accepted the restriction that no single power in the VPP could exceed 60 AP, set as a -0 limitation.[/quote']

 

If I do end up with a VPP using character (which remains to be seen), it looks like I will either go with a 60 point pool limit, or possibly a control cost limit of 60, closer in line with Hugh's stance.

[Gideon]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

The game that I play in has a 70 AP limit, and the GM follows Hugh Neilson's stance. He allows a character to have a pool of greater than 70 points, but automaticly tacks on a -0 Limitation of: "No Power May have an AP greater than 70".

 

He is however strict about what he will allow as a VPP and has banned things like Cosmic Power Pools from the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

He is however strict about what he will allow as a VPP and has banned things like Cosmic Power Pools from the game.

 

That's too bad. The ability to switch your powers without a Skill Roll or as a 0-Phase action matches a lot of concepts.

 

I agree with others that VPPs should come with a predefined list of Powers the Player chooses from - no making stuff up on the fly in combat.

 

Though if a session involves many days or weeks of gameplay a Character should be able to try and come up with a new Power for their VPP if the SFX warrant it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

I would also allow a player in, say, a 60 AP cap game to have a 90 point (for example) VPP so long as he accepted the restriction that no single power in the VPP could exceed 60 AP, set as a -0 limitation.

 

As comment were asked for - I'm all for it. It just means that your pool can carry some extra powers you can shift around - an attack at 60 and some extra defense or movement.

[Edsel]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

As seems to be the general sentiment we go with the size of the reserve pool. Usually when we have a character with a VPP a house rule we use is that the character needs to have a list of powers, pre-calculated, that they use. This list has to be approved by the GM. However during the game, in special GM-approved circumstances, the character is sometimes allowed to formulate new powers on the fly. These are then generally added to the list at the end of the session.

 

PS it is rarely a good idea for a novice or inexperienced player to try and run a VPP. The GM and the player with the VPP should both be well versed with the rules.

 

EDIT: An alternative might be to have the character take a skill roll penalty when using new powers for the first time (on-the-fly). Or in the case of a Cosmic (skill-free) pool requiring an activation roll of some sort for a spur of the moment new power.

[jtelson]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Hmmm, as a GM I rarely use AP caps at all - prefering a give my players ranges for effects and then attempt to carfully review potential characters. In those campaigns where I do use firm AP caps, I would include the control cost in the AP value of the VPP. Consider it an additional versatility tax. I'm generally wary of VPPs, more so now than ever.

[SableWyvern]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Hmmm' date=' as a GM I rarely use AP caps at all - prefering a give my players ranges for effects and then attempt to carfully review potential characters.[/quote']

 

Never having GMed HERO before, I'm definitely sticking with firm AP caps, at least at first. Which still leaves me with more than enough stuff that I have to carefully examine looking for unexpected ramifications.

 

Since my original query seems to have been answered (thanks, all), I'd be interested in hearing about the things have have led to many of you being leery of VPPs in general.

[incrdbil]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

I have a game with pools using a lot of VPP's. In fact, all of the PC's have cosmic power pools. Every one of them. Plus an EC of minor powers.

 

Outside of a certain power area, they can only use 1/2 their reserve of active points. They also have a minor 'known power only' rule--they have to train and work to add a power to the list of known powers. They can try to develop them on the fly with power skill rolls--but I've got a set of penalities and limitations that make it something you dont want to be depending on to make happen. Modifying existing powers is easier. Working with a teacher over a period of time makes the acqusition much easier.

 

Its nice in a way--its a different feel instead of feeling you have a VPP, its liek the characters are still tapping their unknown reserves of power. They can develop a new power, in game, at an appropriate time, not waiting on earnign a boatload of experience and knowing thats the last new thing you'll be doing for a while. It achieves that 'power stunt' effect, and makes the power skill useful in a concrete way.

 

Of course, other things limit their progression--they dont get to spend XP on their VPP's directly. They stage up at appropriate times at my discretion. (I'm basicly shaving off XP from awards and applying it to a fund, when a certain amount is reached, I stage the characters up to the next evolution of their power sets) while they still can spend XP on most characteristics, skills, minor powers and abilities.

 

In another game though, their are VPP's with the 'only can use x amount of points on any one power' at a time limit, though we give a limitation for it. If you buy a 90 point power pol, but never can use more than 60 points on one power at a time, we'd give a 1-2 limitation on the control cost. Hasn't upset the balance, the player still pays a fair cost for what is essential an extra reserve to run a few extra minor powers. I can see the arguments for the -0 limitation, but for me, it comes down to fairness; if they pay for something, and cant use it to the full ability, they get a break on it. If you are comfortable enough to let them have VPP's in the first place, the insistance of charging them extra points for reduced effectiveness seems excessively cautious. They are paying through the nose for a VPP anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

As comment were asked for - I'm all for it. It just means that your pool can carry some extra powers you can shift around - an attack at 60 and some extra defense or movement.

 

I find this works well for characters of great versatility - mystical characters in many cases.

[SableWyvern]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

In another game though' date=' their are VPP's with the 'only can use x amount of points on any one power' at a time limit, though we give a limitation for it. If you buy a 90 point power pol, but never can use more than 60 points on one power at a time, we'd give a 1-2 limitation on the control cost. Hasn't upset the balance, the player still pays a fair cost for what is essential an extra reserve to run a few extra minor powers. I can see the arguments for the -0 limitation, but for me, it comes down to fairness; if they pay for something, and cant use it to the full ability, they get a break on it. If you are comfortable enough to let them have VPP's in the first place, the insistance of charging them extra points for reduced effectiveness seems excessively cautious. They are paying through the nose for a VPP anyway.[/quote']

 

Hmm...

 

VPP 120, Control Cost 60, limited to 60AP (-0) = 180 points.

 

2 x VPP 60, Control Cost 30 = 180 points.

 

Basically identical in effect, with the single pool being a tiny bit more versatile, for the same cost. As such, a -0 lim seems appropriate to me (especially since it's effectively just a way of saying "I will abide by campaign AP caps"). Certainly, -1 to -2 seems very generous.

[incrdbil]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Never having GMed HERO before, I'm definitely sticking with firm AP caps, at least at first. Which still leaves me with more than enough stuff that I have to carefully examine looking for unexpected ramifications.

 

A excellent precaution for the first time GM.

 

Since my original query seems to have been answered (thanks, all), I'd be interested in hearing about the things have have led to many of you being leery of VPPs in general.

 

VPP power: absorbtion. Points go Goes to VPP power reserve. Then, prior to combat, teamamtes pound on their VPP friend with lower paower attacks to max him out.

 

In the end, its synergy you have to watch out for. The team winds up with a collection of energy RKA's...and fire..just after your VPP turned lose a suppress resistant ED, or suppress ED force filed, or suppress ED armor--whatever the villain has.

 

Even with the normal halfing rule for affectign defense powers, picking out just the Ed side mitiagtes that--and suppress is cheap. Its very likely the target will have no, or very little resistant ED left when the other attacks happen.

 

If you've got a trully unfettered cosmic power pool, (or someone with a broad range of effects like 'magic' trapping them is hard without draining their power completely. Force wall? Desol. Bought vs desol? Teleport. Bought vs teleport--he goes to teleport APx3. Or extra dimensional movement. Gas death trap--he now has life support.

 

Of course, there are ways around this--a trap that feeds off hsi energies--every time he uses a power, it injuries a team mate, or innocent. or simply set the trap point levels higher than he can hope to get out. (though this can be hard--you can stack a lot of AP on a 5" megascale teleport).

 

Oh, speaking of megascale..be perfectly comfortable to say no at any time your GM sense goes off. simply announce that power is beyond the players capoabilities, regardless of AP limits, if you feel campaign breakig coming up.

 

"Sorry, your 1 point triple penetrating megascaled to the continent selective continuous uncontrolled RKA only vs Minuteman robots is simply not within your ability RabidMutantBoy"

 

And thats all you have to do. There's a perception once a VPP gets into the game, the GM is somehow hostage to any legal construction he can make in it, which makes people skittish of VPP's of getting into games. GM horror stories of the VPP that wrecked thei game abound. But when you really look at it, its the GM's failure to take action that wrecked the game.

 

View every new VPP power like you would view it as being submitted by a reguar character through progression of play. Every new power t a game is subject to GM permiussion--be it bought with XP, or created in a VPP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

The game that I play in has a 70 AP limit' date=' and the GM follows [b']Hugh Neilson's[/b] stance. He allows a character to have a pool of greater than 70 points, but automaticly tacks on a -0 Limitation of: "No Power May have an AP greater than 70".

 

He is however strict about what he will allow as a VPP and has banned things like Cosmic Power Pools from the game.

 

That's too bad. The ability to switch your powers without a Skill Roll or as a 0-Phase action matches a lot of concepts.

 

I don't mind Cosmic (rules mechanic - no time, no roll to change) pools for the right concept, although they are hideously expensive. However, I dislike cosmic (concept - I can do anything, with no exceptions) power pools. Even such broad concepts as "magic" should have some restrictions. As an example, I run a mystic-powered character on the lines of Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt. In theory, he can do anything with his Pool. In practice there are some issues.

 

Mental powers are pretty much off his lits. He's not bright enough (OOC - we have a mentalist, so build a character that doesn't step on her toes).

 

Aid? healing? I can try...but you organic beings have so many moving parts - it's very complicated and confusing. [Practically, he'd likely end up with something that doesn't work or has some pretty serious side effects - perhaps enough healing to save a life, coupled with a long-term Drain that puts the target in a coma; perhaps a STR aid that drains DEX - too musclebound.] Many UAA powers would have similar issues.

 

ExtraDim Movement - well, he can probably open a portal. Anyone got an extradimensional MAP?

 

Every character needs limits. Blue Bolt just isn't all that bright, so he makes snap decisions. With the team held at gunpoint in a strange location, no one's moving or talking. Well, BB's not all that smart. He is impulsive. So he panics - Megascale Teleport, Usable Against Others, Area Effect Selective and they all vanish in a flash. "5 km due north." Well, whatever direction he guesses is North, anyway. One splashdown later, as the group treads water and someone asks "what do we do now?" "I can try again!" "NO!"

 

I agree with others that VPPs should come with a predefined list of Powers the Player chooses from - no making stuff up on the fly in combat.

 

I like to see at least sample writeups. Changing on the fly really depends on how good the player is with the rules. We had a high-powered character who had an "attacks only" VPP, intended to be one attack at a time. The player had a chart showing how many dice of a 5, 10 or 15 point per die power the VPP created with various advantage totals, and a list of advantages. On the fly cusomization was pretty easy. Build it totally from scratch? That's a lot tougher. My rule of thumb is that the VPP chnages should not allow the game to slow down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Hmm...

 

VPP 120, Control Cost 60, limited to 60AP (-0) = 180 points.

 

2 x VPP 60, Control Cost 30 = 180 points.

 

Basically identical in effect, with the single pool being a tiny bit more versatile, for the same cost. As such, a -0 lim seems appropriate to me (especially since it's effectively just a way of saying "I will abide by campaign AP caps"). Certainly, -1 to -2 seems very generous.

 

I'd say -1/4 at most, and -0 in some cases. I prefer the player to define the abilities and limitations on his VPP holistically, and we can then assign a limitation value based on how far the VPP's versatility lies from "capable of anything".

[Edsel]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

Our group has allowed characters with a reserve higher than the AP limit of the campaign. (i.e. 120-point reserve limited to 60 AP powers). This is IMO a -0 Limitation. Since the AP limit is 60 having a 120 reserve limited to 60 AP is no penalty to the character (no one can have more that 60 AP anyway), in fact it could be considered an advantage.

[SableWyvern]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

So, the fundamental problem with VPPs is "Yep, I've got the perfect power for this situation ... as usual."? If that's the crux of the issue (aside from the mechanical issues of time taken to create new powers), then I can't see it ever being a problem for me.

 

About the widest definition I'd be inclined to allow on a VPP would be a gadgeteer who always seems to have something handy on his person -- and in this case, I would expect the VPP to be limited to things that are useful, rather than powerful -- encouraging imaginative uses of lesser powers, rather than overwhelming force.

 

The more potent stuff that same character had access to would need to be built as seperate power(s), or a more narrowly defined VPP.

[Metaphysician]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

IMO, I don't actually like hard AP caps. You either have to maintain the cap forever, or come up with some kind of rate at which the cap goes up ( which is probably arbitrary ). AP limits should be more of guidelines.

 

Thusly, I think a AP limit on a VPP should be worth some disadvantage points. After all, even if you have a mandatory campaign requirement that, say, all powers need to have "Ineffective vs Magic", thats still a disadvantage you'd get points for.

 

However, I wouldn't give over -1/2 for an AP cap on a VPP, and thats for a VPP capped at half its reserve. Any lower of a cap seems vaguely pointless.

[incrdbil]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

 

However, I wouldn't give over -1/2 for an AP cap on a VPP, and thats for a VPP capped at half its reserve. Any lower of a cap seems vaguely pointless.

 

I can see that; perhaps anconservative way to handle it if you are especially worried about it way to do it is look at the scale of difference, the adjust the limitation.

 

Campaign with less trict AP limits, but the benchmark power is 60 points, 12 DC max.

 

90 pt pool, limited to 60 AP 12 DC. thats roughyl like a 1/2 limitation; to be conservative, half the difference, and make it a 1/4th limitation on the control cost. I'm comfortable with a 1/2 limit myself...but in all the games I'm running with VPP, my planned progression never would call for more of a difference than that.

[SableWyvern]

Re: VPPs and Active Point Limits

 

IMO' date=' I don't actually like hard AP caps. You either have to maintain the cap forever, or come up with some kind of rate at which the cap goes up ( which is probably arbitrary ). AP limits should be more of guidelines.[/quote']

 

In my case, with a 250+75 game and 60AP cap, I've simply decided to keep the 250:60 ratio. Every 25 character points earned will raise the cap by 6. Seems logical to me.

 

I do agree that inviolable AP caps aren't an ideal solution, but at this point, being able to say "no" straight up to anything over the cap vastly simplifies the process of coming to terms with the system.