Desolidify/Tunnelling

[SableWyvern]

Another metal elementalist question.

 

How would you build a power that conveys two benefits:

 

1. Allows the user to pass through metal.

 

2. Provides invulnerability to metal weapons.

 

Yet, otherwise allows the character to interact with the world (and be affected by it) normally.

 

The best I can come up with is:

 

Tunneling X"

Fills in (always occurs)

Metal Only

 

Desol

Only to Protect vs Metal

Linked: Tunelling

 

Which is pretty ugly, but has the desired affect if allowing for the option of not requiring Affects Physical World. My instinct would be to drop the Only vs Metal to a -1/2 instead of -1 in this situation, though.

 

Is there a better way?

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Another metal elementalist question.

 

How would you build a power that conveys two benefits:

 

1. Allows the user to pass through metal.

 

2. Provides invulnerability to metal weapons.

 

Yet, otherwise allows the character to interact with the world (and be affected by it) normally.

 

The best I can come up with is:

 

Tunneling X"

Fills in (always occurs)

Metal Only

 

Desol

Only to Protect vs Metal

Linked: Tunelling

 

Which is pretty ugly, but has the desired affect if allowing for the option of not requiring Affects Physical World. My instinct would be to drop the Only vs Metal to a -1/2 instead of -1 in this situation, though.

 

Is there a better way?

 

Sure. Desolidification, only through/vesus metal, Always on. I think (if I'm remembering my rules correctly) Always on requires persistant and 0 END as well. Regardless, it's a much cleaner build and does exactly what you want it to do. The other thing you might want to do is link some life support in so he can breath while moving through metal.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

"Only through metal" -- is that just a generic limitation, because I don't see anything like that in the actual Desol description ("Only to protect from" is the only material based limitation I can see). Have I gone blind?

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

You havn't gone blind, the book just doesn't list every possiblility. I'd normally put this at a -1 but since most weapons are going to be made of metal I wouldn't give it more than a -1/2. You might also want to keep in mind that such a character will not be able to use or even pick up/hold anything made out of metal.

[Zed-F]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

It would be a generic 'Limited Power' limitation. I'd skip the Always On though. The character would still have to buy Affects Physical World if he wants to do anything while he's got the power on, and presumably would only turn the power on if he was intending to pass through metal that phase. Unless you use GM fiat and let him take 'only to protect from metal' instead, but I personally would not actually allow that on a power that also let him pass through a metal vault door.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

It would be a generic 'Limited Power' limitation. I'd skip the Always On though. The character would still have to buy Affects Physical World if he wants to do anything while he's got the power on' date=' and presumably would only turn the power on if he was intending to pass through metal that phase. Unless you use GM fiat and let him take 'only to protect from metal' instead, but I personally would not actually allow that on a power that also let him pass through a metal vault door.[/quote']

 

Always on is the best way to simulate the character's invlunerability to metal weapons. The only other way to do so is with an involuntary trigger which can cause its own problems. Again, I did it with Always On becasue it seemed to be the easiest way to do it.

 

Edit: Upon further review there is a problem, such a character would never be able to pick up a metal object. Hmmmm......

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

It would be a generic 'Limited Power' limitation. I'd skip the Always On though. The character would still have to buy Affects Physical World if he wants to do anything while he's got the power on' date=' and presumably would only turn the power on if he was intending to pass through metal that phase. Unless you use GM fiat and let him take 'only to protect from metal' instead, but I personally would not actually allow that on a power that also let him pass through a metal vault door.[/quote']

 

How about: Desolidification, only vs. metal, trigger (whenever metal is within one foot of the character). I don’t have my book with me and I don’t usually use Trigger. Is it possible for the character to prevent the Trigger from activating so he can touch metal if he wants to?

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Actually, my initial thought was for this to be something he needs to consciously activate, so no need for triggers/always on in that case. If he gets ambushed, too bad.

 

If I understand you correctly, you guys are taking the "only vs metal" limitation and saying that that also means he only suffers the downsides (inability to interact) with metal. Which is pretty much what I wanted, but something the rules don't overtly support.

 

I do agree with Diamond Spear that metal is too broad to justify a full -1 lim.

 

Looks like a nice, simple, Desol only vs metal is excactly what I want.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Actually, my initial thought was for this to be something he needs to consciously activate, so no need for triggers/always on in that case. If he gets ambushed, too bad.

 

If I understand you correctly, you guys are taking the "only vs metal" limitation and saying that that also means he only suffers the downsides (inability to interact) with metal. Which is pretty much what I wanted, but something the rules don't overtly support.

 

I do agree with Diamond Spear that metal is too broad to justify a full -1 lim.

 

Looks like a nice, simple, Desol only vs metal is excactly what I want.

 

Glad we could help. Helping you also helps me so it's a win/win. Keep those questions coming.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Keep those questions coming.

 

Given that the paramaters I gave my players can basically be summarised as, "Come up with a concept that involves magic", I'm pretty sure I'll have plenty more for you before character gen is done.

 

Edit: And, there's also the fact that I'm actively encouraging any wierd idea they happen to mention, especially those they assume aren't really workable...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Another metal elementalist question.

 

How would you build a power that conveys two benefits:

 

1. Allows the user to pass through metal.

 

2. Provides invulnerability to metal weapons.

 

Yet, otherwise allows the character to interact with the world (and be affected by it) normally.

 

The best I can come up with is:

 

Tunneling X"

Fills in (always occurs)

Metal Only

 

Desol

Only to Protect vs Metal

Linked: Tunelling

 

Which is pretty ugly, but has the desired affect if allowing for the option of not requiring Affects Physical World. My instinct would be to drop the Only vs Metal to a -1/2 instead of -1 in this situation, though.

 

Is there a better way?

 

Not really,

 

Tunnelling makes more sense imho. Desolidification is a self affecting power. It really doesn't fit the desribed sfx since it would not allow the character to carry or be carried by another character and use this ability. Tunneling has no such issue.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Ok, extension of the original question:

 

So far, we've got a guy that can't interact with metal in any way, but is otherwise normal.

 

Technically, this gives him the ability to ignore metal armour with his unarmed attacks (which he will almost certainly have).

 

Now, as written, desol says he has to pay for Affects Physical World to affect the physical world -- no exceptions are listed just because his desol has some limitations applied. We've disregarded this rule for convenience, and thus the character steps around that limitation.

 

My instinct is thus to say that if he wants to bypass armour while using this particular version of desol, he needs an attack which specifically allows for this already.

 

Thoughts?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Ok, extension of the original question:

 

So far, we've got a guy that can't interact with metal in any way, but is otherwise normal.

 

Technically, this gives him the ability to ignore metal armour with his unarmed attacks (which he will almost certainly have).

 

Now, as written, desol says he has to pay for Affects Physical World to affect the physical world -- no exceptions are listed just because his desol has some limitations applied. We've disregarded this rule for convenience, and thus the character steps around that limitation.

 

My instinct is thus to say that if he wants to bypass armour while using this particular version of desol, he needs an attack which specifically allows for this already.

 

Thoughts?

 

The use of Desol as a defacto Invulnerability vs. sfx X does NOT also impart NND status to the character's attacks (HTH or otherwise) vs sfx X.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

It would not allow the character to carry or be carried by another character and use this ability. Tunneling has no such issue.

 

Actually, allowing someone else to tag along was not part of my original intent. I was content to allow it as a side-effect of choosing tunneling as the Power on which the ability was built, but it was only ever that -- an acceptable side-effect.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

The use of Desol as a defacto Invulnerability vs. sfx X does NOT also impart NND status to the character's attacks (HTH or otherwise) vs sfx X.

Cool. That works for me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Here's my take on the magnetic power set (no Tunneling to start with however).

 

Metalminia

(recently updated character)

[dsatow]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Here is my $.02 (running out of pennies 8D )

 

Desol, invisible power effects, through solids, only vs. metal (-1/2), Always on, 0 end, persist.

 

Affects Solid on strength, limitation on advantage, not vs. metal.

 

Life support need not breath, only while in metal.

 

N-Ray vision only through metal (possibly with an additional limitation or disad can't see metal)

 

In a more modern world this is a bigger problem.

Most utensils are made of metal, the character will have to use plastic or wooden utensils like chopsticks.

More susceptible to diseases. Needles used in inoculations are metal. Defibrillator pads use metal.

Unable to use private transportation. Car handles are metal. Motorcycle controls are made of metal. Even bicycle brakes and pedals are made of metal.

Most mail boxs are made of metal.

Most elevators and escalators use metal in almost all components, from buttons to things to stand on.

Most door handles are metal.

Most public bathroom stalls are made of metal. Talk about embarrassment!

etc.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

For passing through metal, I'd go ahead and just buy Desold, and make "Only vs. Metal" a -1/2, after all, how often are you going to need to get through a solid metal barrier? Usually it will be to get out of metal chains, through bars, etc., but you won't be able to walk through stone walls or wooden walls, etc. This is a fantasy setting, ins't it?

 

It's true that you won't be able to attack anyone while passing through the iron gate, but how often will that be an issue?

 

For metal objects (just as weapons) passing through you, you might consider various Defense powers, particularly FF and Damage Reduction, and just define their SFX as being that the metal object passes through your body. 75% DR, only vs. Metal (-1). I guess you can also add Linked. Yes, you'll still take some damage if you use the DR method, which you can justify by saying that something non-metallic hit you. After all, the haft of the axe is made of wood and you can still be bonked with it.

 

I don't think you'll need Life Support to breathe, unless you're planning on passing through huge blocks of solid metal.

 

N-Ray vision only through metal (possibly with an additional limitation or disad can't see metal)

That's a good point. Can you see through metal? Can you see metal at all while using this power? Note that you don't necessarily have to buy this in addition. It isn't required.

 

In a more modern world this is a bigger problem.

Most utensils are made of metal, the character will have to use plastic or wooden utensils like chopsticks.

Not necessarily. He could just wear gloves. The utensils won't pass through the gloves.

More susceptible to diseases. Needles used in inoculations are metal. Defibrillator pads use metal.

So? It isn't the needle that cures you, it's the medicine inside. If anything, this would make it easier (and less painful) to receive an injection. The medicine goes directly into the blood stream without puncturing the skin or the wall of the vein. And the defib isn't an issue either. He's ignores metal not electricity. In any event, it wouldn't make him more susceptible to disease, it would just make treating him a little different. Surgery with metal impliments would be a problem.

Unable to use private transportation. Car handles are metal. Motorcycle controls are made of metal. Even bicycle brakes and pedals are made of metal.

So? Car doors are made of metal - who need handles to open the door? The steering wheel is covered with plastic/rubber/leather, so you can still grab that. And for pedals (car and bicycle): foot touches shoe which touches pedal - no problem! And if you don't want to take out the non-metal interior of the car doors, you can always use gloves again to manipulate the door handles.

Most mail boxs are made of metal.

Most elevators and escalators use metal in almost all components, from buttons to things to stand on.

Most door handles are metal.

Most public bathroom stalls are made of metal. Talk about embarrassment!

etc.

Gloves and shoes are not made of metal.

 

And yes, you can even pick up weapons - axe handles are usually wood, as are the hafts of many weapons, the shafts of spears, the hilts of swords, the stocks of rifles. And many other non-metal materials can be used. And there's always the glove option. Hand touches leather glove which touches metal object.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Phil, my initial thoughts went along the lines your did - let me outline my second thoughts!

 

Not necessarily. He could just wear gloves. The utensils won't pass through the gloves.

 

Now this is an artefact of the power as written but gloves would not allow you to do this - they would count as part of you and as such would be desolid. Obviously the GM could handwave this as 'common sense' stuff. But he would be able to wrap a cloth around the utensil - or simply insist on wooden handles.

 

So? It isn't the needle that cures you' date=' it's the medicine inside. If anything, this would make it easier (and less painful) to receive an injection. The medicine goes directly into the blood stream without puncturing the skin or the wall of the vein. [/quote']

 

The needle would pass through the skin but the medicine would not and simply slide down his arm or not be able to pass beyond the point where the needle meets the arm.

 

I agree about the defib.

 

Gloves and shoes are not made of metal.

 

But strictly gloves and shoes will be desolid as well.

 

And yes' date=' you can even pick up weapons - axe handles are usually wood, as are the hafts of many weapons, the shafts of spears, the hilts of swords, the stocks of rifles. And many other non-metal materials can be used. And there's always the glove option. Hand touches leather glove which touches metal object.[/quote']

 

I would say that there was always the wrapping option where a friend could have something wrapped in cloth or leather and then the object could be used.

 

It is a good argument for the limitation being -1/2 on the desolid rather than -1.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

The needle would pass through the skin but the medicine would not and simply slide down his arm or not be able to pass beyond the point where the needle meets the arm.

 

I agree about the defib.

 

But strictly gloves and shoes will be desolid as well.

 

I would say that there was always the wrapping option where a friend could have something wrapped in cloth or leather and then the object could be used.

 

It is a good argument for the limitation being -1/2 on the desolid rather than -1.

 

That last line is the key. The GM first needs to get a clear handle on the manner in which player envisions this working. From that, assess how common and how significant the resulting limitations will be. This should then be used to set the value of the limitation.

[Lucius]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Ok, extension of the original question:

 

So far, we've got a guy that can't interact with metal in any way, but is otherwise normal.

 

Technically, this gives him the ability to ignore metal armour with his unarmed attacks (which he will almost certainly have).

 

Now, as written, desol says he has to pay for Affects Physical World to affect the physical world -- no exceptions are listed just because his desol has some limitations applied. We've disregarded this rule for convenience, and thus the character steps around that limitation.

 

My instinct is thus to say that if he wants to bypass armour while using this particular version of desol, he needs an attack which specifically allows for this already.

 

Thoughts?

 

You might have Attack Vs. Limited Defense (Non-metal defenses) on his STR.

 

Given that's not a very limited defense, perhaps you can also say that it doesn't convert STR attacks to STUN only, as Attack Vs Limited Defense usually does.

 

Regarding a lot of the other ideas bantered about - keep in mind that Desolidification usually includes "costume." It doesn't have to - but you MUST (in my opinion) determine before play begins if the character will be able to, for example, wear gloves and pick up metal - in which case if he wants to go through the vault door, he has to strip naked first. If he wants to stay decent while passing through metal, not to mention protect his clothing from being cut up while he's also protecting himself, he won't be able to say that he can stand on a metal platform if he wears shoes, or pick up silverware with gloves.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that we didn't say the "I" word, either.

 

Lucius Alexander

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Another metal elementalist question.

 

How would you build a power that conveys two benefits:

 

1. Allows the user to pass through metal.

 

2. Provides invulnerability to metal weapons.

 

Yet, otherwise allows the character to interact with the world (and be affected by it) normally.

 

The best I can come up with is:

 

Tunneling X"

Fills in (always occurs)

Metal Only

 

Desol

Only to Protect vs Metal

Linked: Tunelling

 

Which is pretty ugly, but has the desired affect if allowing for the option of not requiring Affects Physical World. My instinct would be to drop the Only vs Metal to a -1/2 instead of -1 in this situation, though.

 

Is there a better way?

 

I read the thread, but I think some points were missed so I'm starting over.

 

You linked Desol to the Tunneling - which means you're only Desol while actively Tunneling. If that was the intent, cool.

 

As for Desol vs Metal:

 

Desolidification; Only Vs Metal (-1/2), Damage Only (-1/2)

 

Metal objects can still touch them, but none that cause damage, if that was the intent of item 2. If the intent is to be untouchable by metal, remove the Damage Only Limitation.

 

Only Vs Metal I would definitely place at a -1/2.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Desolidify/Tunnelling

 

Now this is an artefact of the power as written but gloves would not allow you to do this - they would count as part of you and as such would be desolid. Obviously the GM could handwave this as 'common sense' stuff. But he would be able to wrap a cloth around the utensil - or simply insist on wooden handles.

 

etc.

Yes. I was speaking from an SFX standpoint rather than mechanics. Modeling this power correctly is a separate problem. I'm just saying that the concept itself doesn't preclude picking up metal objects while wearing gloves.

 

Although it does seem a little strange to be able to have metal pass through one's body, and somehow have that property automatically transfer to all the clothes one happens to be wearing as well. And yes, that's also a rather silly statement considering how physically impossible the concept is anyway.