Heal

[balo]

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be a Hero System guru. I did search the discussion boards for a similar topic but didn't find one but if one exists I apologise for going over it again.

 

As I understand it, the simplified version of Heal for dealing with wounds results in the restoration of 0 to 2 BODY per dice of Heal.

 

Firstly, isn't this unfair. If you bought the Heal the normal way you could get up to 3 BODY back. Secondly, might it not have been easier to define a return of 1d6 BODY as 2d6 of Heal. Given this last point, doesn't healing cost more than inflicting damage - it's 15 points for 1d6 killing damage but it would cost 20 points of heal to restore up to 6 points of BODY.

 

I know it could be said that creation is harder than destruction but I don't know if that's full justification.

[Steve Long]

This isn't a question but a rules philosophy discussion, so I've moved it to the Discussion board.

 

What do you think, Herodom Assembled?

[Monolith]

Re: Heal

 

Originally posted by balo

As I understand it, the simplified version of Heal for dealing with wounds results in the restoration of 0 to 2 BODY per dice of Heal.

 

Firstly, isn't this unfair. If you bought the Heal the normal way you could get up to 3 BODY back.

IIRC, Simplified Healing grants 1-6 STUN and 0-2 BODY back per die roll. So you are getting back more than just BODY. If you remove the STUN return form the equation then yes, simplified healing is too expensive; but with the 1-6 STUN it is quite reasonable.

[Arthur]

So should Healing that does not restore STUN get a Limitation? I currently build Regen by assuming a "Reset Time" for Healing of once per day. That can be bought up one step on the Time Chart per +1/4. Thusly, 1 BODY per Turn Regen requires +1.5 worth of that new Advantage.

 

I like it in that it makes Regen cost 11 points instead of 7. In the new typical paradigm, Regen is more valuable than it was in the Bronze/Silver Age inspired gaming, not less. Further, it makes it more appealing to buy slower levels of Regen. Recovering 1 BODY per Hour, for instance, is quite common in the source, but is greatly discouraged by the official rules. It saves, what, 3 points?

 

However, I I'm going to be that rigorous, should I tack on a -1 Lim for "BODY Only"? Looking for opinions here.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arthur

So should Healing that does not restore STUN get a Limitation?

No, you would just buy the power as Healing: BODY (and thus you would heal back 1-3 points of BODY per roll). The simplified rules are in place for people who do not want to have Healing affect a specific Characteristic.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith

No, you would just buy the power as Healing: BODY (and thus you would heal back 1-3 points of BODY per roll).

 

Actually it's 1-6 character points worth of BODY per die (because you can have more than 1d6 Healing BODY) but yeah, you're right on the other bits.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

Actually it's 1-6 character points worth of BODY per die (because you can have more than 1d6 Healing BODY) but yeah, you're right on the other bits.

Yeah, but BODY is a 2 point Characteristic, so you only get the benefit of 1-3 points of BODY, IIRC.

[Hugh Neilson]

IMNSHO, Adjustment powers did not weather the transition to 5e well. Consider Aid: I can spend 10 points to add 1d6 character points which fade at 5 character points per turn, and I pay 1 END to do it.

 

Or I can buy can buy Characterisics, Usable by Other, Persistent (so it doesn't vanish if I'm knocked out) and get 5 character points for 8.75 (say 9) points, with no fade rate. Shouldn't the more expensive choice carry an advantage, rather than being the more limited approach?

 

The rules also say I can't use my Transfer as a Drain if I've transferred the maximum. So I guess I should purchase Linked Drain and Aid (or maybe just Characteristics/Power) only to the extent of points drained, and self only. Cheaper, and I get to use my Drain even if I'm aided to the maximum.

 

I would also suggest the rules permit "No Point Cap" as a +1 advantage (working Regeneration backwards, this is the cost anyway - and an Absorption, half to Stat X and half to Max Point Absorbed would do the same thing at the same cost).

 

For that matter, why not just let Aid heal if you pay a +1/2 advantage (and make "cannot exceed character's normal stat" a +1/2 limitation). This would all balance out.

 

I really think that the backlash against some abusive 4e Aids (which probably should have been better considered by GM's in the first place - maybe "GM's should closely scrutinize Aids purchased to recover STUN or END" should be in the power description) resulted in a swing too far the other way in respect of adjustment powers.

 

To my mind, if the same effect can be purchased different ways, the costs should be equivalent. For that reason, I was glad to see the Hand Attack solution - it's extra STR with a limit "only to increase damage" (or an EB with the advantage "STR adds", and limited with "No Range", "No spreading", etc.). It was a bit ridiculous that "Hand Attack w/ Range" was 10% cheaper than EB.

 

But I digress. The point is, I think the pendulum swung too far against adjustment powers this time.

[Snarf]

Or I can buy can buy Characterisics, Usable by Other, Persistent (so it doesn't vanish if I'm knocked out) and get 5 character points for 8.75 (say 9) points, with no fade rate. Shouldn't the more expensive choice carry an advantage, rather than being the more limited approach?

Keep in mind that you may have to buy some things down to 0 END to put persistent on them, and you have to pay for the number of targets you can share with for usable by others.

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

For that matter, why not just let Aid heal if you pay a +1/2 advantage (and make "cannot exceed character's normal stat" a +1/2 limitation). This would all balance out.

So are you saying that the +1/2 Advantage would remove the Fading that is inherent in the Aid?

[Lord Liaden]

Well, Hugh, in comparing the breakdown of Aid to Characteristics as you have, I should point out that even if a GM was willing to allow the construct you describe, the Usable on Others Advantage at the +1/4 level (which is what your calculation seems to derive from) would only allow the extra Characteristics to be used by one other person at a time. So, if you wanted to boost the characteristics of a second person, you would have to stop doing so for the first person - unless you wanted to keep doubling the number of people on whom the power would be Usable, which would continue to increase the cost. With Aid, you can keep boosting as many people as you want, and once they're Aided they require no further attention to maintain.

 

However, I have considered a +1/2 Advantage to Adjustment Powers to allow the recipients to retain the benefit up to their characteristics' starting values, which was the way Adjustments worked under the 4th Edition rules. A lot of mechanics would be simplified that way. Aid is a good example: apply that +1/2 Advantage and the "Costs END" Limitation and you'd have a power construct that worked pretty much like 4E Aid but cost the same as 5E Aid.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you about Transfers, though. A cap on the amount that you can gain via a Transfer seems reasonable and balances with Aid, but restricting how much the Power can Drain from a target rather diminishes its usefulness as an attack.

[Southern Cross]

Healing & Regeneration

 

In FREd,an attack power that does no STUN has a -3/4 limitation "Does no STUN" applied to it.Applying this Limitation to the form of Regeneration described in a prior post,the real Cost of Regeneration drops back to 10 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman

So are you saying that the +1/2 Advantage would remove the Fading that is inherent in the Aid?

 

I'm saying the +1/2 advantage would remove the fading inherent in the Aid ONLY to restore the stat to its starting value. As an example, assume MightyMan has been hit by a 15 point STR drain (and it's long term). Medic has 6d6 STR Aid, with this +1/2 advantage. He rolls a 20, so MightyMan gets +20 STR. At the end of a turn, he loses 5 points STR, which puts him back to his starting STR. He no longer suffers further fades.

 

Essentially, the +1/2 advantage allows aid which also heals (or, looked at another way, healing which can also grant a temporrary boost).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Usable on Others Advantage at the +1/4 level (which is what your calculation seems to derive from) would only allow the extra Characteristics to be used by one other person at a time.

 

That is the comparison I'm working on, yes.

 

So, if you wanted to boost the characteristics of a second person, you would have to stop doing so for the first person - unless you wanted to keep doubling the number of people on whom the power would be Usable, which would continue to increase the cost. With Aid, you can keep boosting as many people as you want, and once they're Aided they require no further attention to maintain.

 

True, this would increase the cost. Three doublings would suffice for most super-teams (unless you're in the habit of Aiding bystanders or opponents).

 

But actually, they do require further attention to maintain, unless you buy a lower fade rate on your Aid. Assuming 5 people (so I need three dublings to get them all) it takes my 5 phases to aid those 5 people (assuming I don't buy an Area Effect, further changing the costs). Assuming a 5 Speed (pretty common), by the time the last guy gets an Aid, the fade starts kicking in.

 

However, I have considered a +1/2 Advantage to Adjustment Powers to allow the recipients to retain the benefit up to their characteristics' starting values, which was the way Adjustments worked under the 4th Edition rules. A lot of mechanics would be simplified that way. Aid is a good example: apply that +1/2 Advantage and the "Costs END" Limitation and you'd have a power construct that worked pretty much like 4E Aid but cost the same as 5E Aid.

 

I don't have the book in front of me - I was operating under the belief Aid still cost END (and we know what happens if you assume...) which would tip the comparison somewhat.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you about Transfers, though. A cap on the amount that you can gain via a Transfer seems reasonable and balances with Aid, but restricting how much the Power can Drain from a target rather diminishes its usefulness as an attack.

 

Let's say it - it makes the cost unreasonably high. If we didn't have a Transfer power, we'd build it by linking a Drain and an Aid. Just like we build "defensive absorbtion" by linking defenses to absorbtion.

[Arthur]

Re: Healing & Regeneration

 

Originally posted by Southern Cross

In FREd,an attack power that does no STUN has a -3/4 limitation "Does no STUN" applied to it.Applying this Limitation to the form of Regeneration described in a prior post,the real Cost of Regeneration drops back to 10 points.

 

You must be referring to my method. And you are right. So it does! Huzzah! That makes a great finishing touch on the construct.

 

For those of you following along at home, here is the final construct:

 

 

1d Healing. Fixed Effect 1 BODY. Persistent, 0 END (+1); Reset Time 1 Turn (+1.5). Self Only (-1/2); Extra Time 1 Turn (-1.25); Heals no STUN (-0.75).

 

Active Cost: 35

 

Real Cost: 10

 

It works out to exactly the same level of Advantages and Limitations, so it is 10 points EXACTLY (no rounding required). Therefore, it is good through any number of dice.

 

A possible problem here is that the slower Regen values are still not much of a savings.

 

 

1 per Turn: 10 points

1 per minute: 9 points

1 per 5 minutes: 7 points

1 per 20 minutes: 6 points

1 per hour: 5 points

1 per 6 hours: 4 points

1 per day: 3 points

[feywulf]

Re: Re: Healing & Regeneration

 

Originally posted by Arthur

1d Healing. Fixed Effect 1 BODY. Persistent, 0 END (+1); Reset Time 1 Turn (+1.5). Self Only (-1/2); Extra Time 1 Turn (-1.25); Heals no STUN (-0.75).

 

Active Cost: 35

 

Real Cost: 10

 

Reset time? What exactly does this reset time advantage do?

 

Your write up looks very similar to the regeneration option for healing, but with unecessary add ons.

[Monolith]

Re: Re: Re: Healing & Regeneration

 

Originally posted by feywulf

Your write up looks very similar to the regeneration option for healing, but with unecessary add ons.

I kind of get the same feeling. I can buy 1 BODY Regeneration for 7 points now. Why would I want to pay 10 points for it?

[GamePhil]

First, the thing that's being added on is in the FAQ: it allows Healing to be re-used before a day is over with, rather than running up against the limit the Power normally has (1d6 Healing will only ever heal 6 PP, and you have to actually roll the 6).

 

As for why someone would want to do this: it brings it in line with how Healing works. As things stand, Regeneration is allowed to break the normal rules for Healing with no additional point cost: there is no limit to how much Body in a day it can recover. This write up makes it so that it is not an exception, and I dislike exceptions.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GamePhil

This write up makes it so that it is not an exception, and I dislike exceptions.

I dislike exceptions too, but his write up is also an exception by using a STUN Only Limitation in a manner in which it was not designed to be used. The write up is also using the "Standard Effect" rule, which itself is an exception to the normal rules. I see no reason to substitute a more expensive exception for a cheaper exception.

[GamePhil]

First of all, I apologize to the original poster for what I am about to do.

 

Well, let's take a look at what you'd really do if you were exception stomping. First, you wouldn't use Simplified Healing as your base, because it is, itself, an exception (however, this exception means that the -3/4 Limitation is *not* one itself, if you take my meaning). So, what you would get would be:

 

2d6 Healing Body, Fixed Effect 3 Body,

[i start with 2d6 so as not to lose the extra Power Point worth of Body. This will cause its own exception, but I find it less of a problem, myself, and brings the cost closer to in-line.]

 

Continuous (+1),

[Healing is normally an Instant Power, so it needs to be Continuous to do Regeneration.]

 

0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Reset Time 1 Turn (+1 1/2),

[i'm trusting the previous poster on the value of this, I'm a bit rushed]

 

Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time 1 Turn (-1 1/4)

 

Active Cost: 90

Real Cost: 33

 

I would then allow you to simply take 1 Body Regeneration for 11 points. I do like the idea still of creating "new" Powers from old ones. This, itself, is the exception to which I refer.

 

Hmm, pressed for time, I said. *sigh*

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Hmm, pressed for time, I said. *sigh*

You were doing well there except for the end. 90/2.75 = 33, not 24 points.

 

I actually have my players buy Regeneration the exact same way you just described above. The only difference is that I use 1d6 and I drop the "Fixed Effect" concept and use it like normal Healing. This means every Turn the player can "regenerate" between 1 and 3 points of BODY. It costs 16 points and on average heals 2 BODY. I guess this makes it about 1 BODY per 8 points; only slightly more expensive than the exception version in FREd.

[GamePhil]

Oops, sorry, edited it after you responded.

 

It's because I had everything broken up by my own comments. My eyes crossed and I got another -1 in there. I knew it wasn't right since I'd done this before in calmer times and gotten 11, but couldn't figure out why. Ah, well.

 

I'd still like to get just another -1/4 so that it comes out to be exactly 10, like in the old days, but what can you do?

[Arthur]

Originally posted by GamePhil

First, the thing that's being added on is in the FAQ: it allows Healing to be re-used before a

day is over with, rather than running up against the limit the Power normally has (1d6 Healing will only ever heal 6 PP, and you have to actually roll the 6).

 

It's in the FAQ? That "Reset Time" going up one step on the Time Chart as a +1/4 is something I came up with on my own. If it's an Official Rule , that's great. I can always use a little more credibility.

 

 

As for why someone would want to do this: it brings it in line with how Healing works. As things stand, Regeneration is allowed to break the normal rules for Healing with no additional point cost: there is no limit to how much Body in a day it can recover. This write up makes it so that it is not an exception, and I dislike exceptions.

 

So do I. Which is why I require that extra Advantage.

 

Someone else mentioned that it should be Continuous. I don't really think so. There are provisions for a Power to be Instant and Persistent. This seems like a perfect example of such a case where that makes sense. It "goes off" every Turn (or whatever), and its effects linger (per the description of Instant Powers). However, I could be convinced otherwise. Regen is a potent ability, and if it goes up a bit in cost, that's fine with me.

 

You know, I used to have a House Rule (lifted from Fuzion) that treated Regen as "one step up on the Time Chart per 3 points".

 

That is:

 

Heal REC BODY per month: 0 points

Per week: 3 points

Per day: 6 points.

Etc.

 

I like the idea of Healing and Regen being handled the same way, but Regen as its own Power again is getting more and more appealing.

 

P.S. After a quick detour into The Land of Spreadsheet, it turns out that adding Continuous makes it 13 points for Regen 1/Turn (it's not exact before rounding, but it stays good up to Regen 3). Active Points = 45.

 

1 BODY per Minute: 11 points

1 per 5 Min: 9 points

1 per 20 min: 8 points

1 per hour: 7 points

1 per 6 hours: 6 points

1 per day: 5 points

 

Y'know, I like that spread better.

 

[Arthur]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Healing & Regeneration

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I kind of get the same feeling. I can buy 1 BODY Regeneration for 7 points now. Why would I want to pay 10 points for it?

 

You may not, but your GM may prefer it that way. Cheaper isn't always better for the game as a whole, as appealing as it may be to a player.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Arthur

You know, I used to have a House Rule (lifted from Fuzion) that treated Regen as "one step up on the Time Chart per 3 points".

[/b]

 

That's actually a fairly common set of house rules from before Fuzion that was incorporated into that system. By "common", I mean that a number of separate groups came up with a similar Regeneration Power that worked that way.

 

I've actually been toying around with something Derek H. mentioned (and, previous to him, a number of other people): creating a "new" Power to "do things faster". That is, you can put the car together in very little time (such as a speedster, or maybe a mechanic so good he knows where to kick the engine to get it to work). I was going to base it on Penalty Skill Levels, the logic being that you take them to offset the penalty for performing the Skill in less time than usual. So, you apply some PSL's to healing times, and voila! But it's not a fully formed thought.

 

As for it being Continuous: the "need" for this Advantage is only for consistency. It causes a modification of your Characteristics, in much the same way as a Continuous Drain would, just up instead of down. It seemed fairly reasonable.

 

Anyway, that "need" is only for Absolute Consistency anyway, something that no version of any game system I've ever seen has, anyway. Hero comes closest, so I'm reasonably happy (and will just house rule it in, anyway).