The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

[Klytus]

A player of mine has a concept of an Avatar-of-Justice in a Champs campaign. She has a set of basic powers designed to hunt and hurt the wicked and the "guilty". The concept is that the more "corrupt" the individual is, the more damage they would take from the attacks. In other words, someone like Dr. Destroyer would take full damage/effect from the powers, while a loon like Foxbat would suffer the bare-minimum.

 

Regardless of how we determine the subjective nature of curruption, how would you build this? I was thinking of starting it out with a small multipower with all the powers which effect anyone. Then, I create extra "adding" multipowers with increasing limitations based on the level of corruption it takes to be effecitve. Or maybe buy naked-power adders with a Trigger based on the corruiption level? Or maybe something else entirely?

 

Ideas?

[Comic]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

To the villain, the villain is the hero. Dr. Destroyer believes he's right, and good in his own private thoughts, I imagine. Not that I spend a good deal of time inside his mind.

 

You as GM would have to decide who is evil, and how evil they are, beforehand. I'd recommend a 10 pt scale, the higher, the less corrupt.

 

This power wouldn't be a limitation -- in fact, its certainly an advantage. It has a built in 'detect corruption' for one thing, and guarantees accidental firing at allies or innocents never does harm.

 

I'd call it +1/4 to +1/2 on whatever attacks you use, plus AVLD, and the defense is 'being uncorrupted' -- conveniently using that 10 point scale, maybe with bonuses for circumstances (like a few extra points for doing a particularly nice or just deed while shot).

[Klytus]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

To the villain' date=' the villain is the hero. Dr. Destroyer believes he's right, and good in his own private thoughts, I imagine. Not that I spend a good deal of time inside his mind.[/quote']

 

We are assuming that there is an absolute objective view of good and evil - it doesn't matter HOW good the target thinks he is.

 

This power wouldn't be a limitation -- in fact, its certainly an advantage. It has a built in 'detect corruption' for one thing, and guarantees accidental firing at allies or innocents never does harm.

 

These are not area-of-effect attacks. And I would argue that this effect IS a limitation when you consider that not all "bad-guys" are equally evil. Fighting a group of baddies where they all have different motives for what they do, for instance, the attacks would be less effective against some of them than others.

[BNakagawa]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Buy X d6 of the attack with 2 dice that only work if the target is very corrupt, 2 dice that only work if the target is corrupt and 2 dice that only work if the target is somewhat corrupt.

 

The value of the above limitations are determined by the definition of corruption.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Your problem is going to be definition of corruption. I would look to disads for this. As GM you should define disads as normal, bad, and very bad.

 

Examples off the top of my head would be as follow:

Claustrophobic - normal, hates killers - bad, casual killer - very bad.

 

Normal disads add nothing to corruption total, bad disads add half their points to the corruption total and very bad disads add all their points to the corruption total.

 

I would have any psych limitation that includes hatred as bad - its not a good thing and can lead to the dark side...

 

You can then tot up the points in bad and very bad disadvantages to get a measure of corruptness.

 

You might then be able to build your attack and base its effectiveness on the corruption points....just a thought. The subjectiveness then all comes in grading the disads rather than an overall judgement on the character.

 

 

Doc

[Klytus]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Buy X d6 of the attack with 2 dice that only work if the target is very corrupt, 2 dice that only work if the target is corrupt and 2 dice that only work if the target is somewhat corrupt.

 

The value of the above limitations are determined by the definition of corruption.

 

How do I do this, though, if all of the powers in question are in a multipower? Naked powers and/or Advantages outside the Multipower? Or seperate Multipowers with LImitations on the whole MP?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

It would be a compound power.

 

6D6 EB, +2D6 (only versus bad people +1/4), +2D6 (only versus very bad people, +1/2), +2D6 (only versus really awful people, +3/4)

 

30 points + 8 points + 7 points + 6 points = 51 points

 

In the multipower that is a limited 12D6 EB. I can't remember what the rules are here but I think you always have to throw the whole power (paying the necessary END) and acepting that sometimes it wont work as well as you hoped - and why those things are limitations.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

We are assuming that there is an absolute objective view of good and evil - it doesn't matter HOW good the target thinks he is.

 

The definitions will be key to the mechanic. You'll need to have agreement between the player and yourself on what constitutes "corruption" for purposes of each level of damage. Then you need to assess how common they are in your game. For example, what level of corruption is a Dr. Doom? he's egomaniacal and wants to rule the world, but he truly believes that this will be a better world for everyone. Despite the fact he will kill any who fail him without a second thought.

 

These are not area-of-effect attacks. And I would argue that this effect IS a limitation when you consider that not all "bad-guys" are equally evil. Fighting a group of baddies where they all have different motives for what they do' date=' for instance, the attacks would be less effective against some of them than others.[/quote']

 

Absolutely. I can think of lots of situations where this becomes more limiting. For example:

 

- inanimate objects are not sentient and cannot be corrupt, so the extra dice don't hep the character break a force wall, escape an Entangle, escape from a deathtrap or defeat a robot.

 

- ditto animals. The fact that Gobbler the Giant Turkey is not "corrupt" doesn't make him any less dangerous.

 

- an opponent could be blackmailed into committing a crime, and not be evil at all. "I hate to do it, but I have to steal these secret documents or they'll kill my children". No extra dice.

 

- is a heroic teammate who's been mind controlled "corrupt"?

 

- good people can still have differences of opinion. The character may be fighting other heroes (a misunderstanding; a frame-up; heroes of a different nation with political differences)

 

- depending on the limitations, that "most corrupt" level may not be met by more than a small proportion of opponents. Presumably, a career thief who doesn't hurt people or kill people isn't corrupt.

 

More importantly, the GM, in allowing this, has basicaly agreed and committed that it will be appropriately limiting. This will not be a game of purest good vs darkest evil (then there would be a reduced or no limitation), but will involve shades of grey.

 

To the comment that this includes "detect corruption", I would argue it does not. The character will see his blast strike the target, and perhaps get a sense of how painful that was. He doesn't know whether the target is corrupt and has high defenses or is not and has low defenses. In some cases (a prolonged battle with other characters hitting the target), he may get a sense of what's happening, but that's about it.

 

As to the mechanics, it's a partially limited power (there's an example in the books of staggered increased END costs, IIRC). Xd6 EB + Yd6 EB only if target is corrupt + Zd6 EB only if target is very corrupt, for example. Let's asume that's 8d6 + 4d6 + 2d6, so 8d6 costs 40 + 4d6 costs 20 at, say, -1/2 = 13 plus 2d6 at, say, -1.5 is 4 points.

 

I would limit each slot in the multipower, and the multipower reserve, assuming the AP of all powers are limited in the same fashion. If the character has a "regular attack" to fall back on, he won't get a point break on the MP reserve - but then, it's not nearly as limited.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

I agree that the definition of corruption is going to be key to the construction (and pricing) of this power. Mr. Neilson gives some excellent examples. For that reason, the level of Pysch Lim that Doc D proposes would probably be a good way to define it in game terms.

 

As for the build, I would just have a single power, say 10d6 EB, with the limitation that the damage can't exceed the "corruption level" of the target (-½). The "corruption level" is then defined as total points in "evil" Psych Lims, probably multiplied by a modifier for the level of evil (so Hates Killers might have a multiplier of x1, but Casual Killer a multiplier of x2 or something). You might have to tweak the numbers to get it to come out at the level you want.

 

As mentioned above, some things have no level of corruption (like a vending machine, no matter how frustrating they may be) and hence the attack is useless against inanimate objects. But I would propose that most people are at least slightly corrupt; after all, no one is perfect. They may not be affected strongly by this attack, but it may still sting. I would by default give everyone a 5 or 10 point level Disad "Self-Centered" for purposes of this attack, because that is human nature. This would open a number of role-playing opportunities I think, but also keep the limitation from becoming an advantage (esp. in hostage situations I am thinking).

 

_____________________________________________________________

I say risk, you say cost

You choose trapped, I choose lost - Beauty Pill

[tesuji]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

A player of mine has a concept of an Avatar-of-Justice in a Champs campaign. She has a set of basic powers designed to hunt and hurt the wicked and the "guilty". The concept is that the more "corrupt" the individual is, the more damage they would take from the attacks. In other words, someone like Dr. Destroyer would take full damage/effect from the powers, while a loon like Foxbat would suffer the bare-minimum.

 

Regardless of how we determine the subjective nature of curruption, how would you build this?

Ideas?

 

The build is basically a compound power... to build say a simple EB you do the following... i will go for 15d6 total effect and five stages of corruption

 

3d6 Eb -0 (only vs people who have lied or worse)

+3d6 eb -1/4 (only vs those who have stolen or worse)

+3d6 Eb -1/2 (Only vs someone who has inflicted physical harm or worse)

+3d6 -1 (only vs someone who has maimed or worse)

+3d6 - 1 1/2 (only vs someone who has killed)

 

I would add-in (to each stage) something like -1/2 for "takes half damage if they have confessed, attoned, repented the offenses.

 

so straight up the total RP cost for this attack would be some5thing like 10+9+7+6+5 = 27 rp. thats one slot in a multipower.

 

When i do these, i dont make it a general "corruption" but define a specific set of offenses based on the code/credo of those involved and throw in the repent/confess aspect as well. basically i have tended to find the dishonest-steal-harm-kill pattern seems to work out faily easy in play. does he steal, does he cheat and does he hurt people or kill are often part of persona descriptions.

[pinecone]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Yeah, really it's a compound that uses the same lim several timess XD6 +XD6 NCC (GM determines by a sliding scale of "corruption")....or +XD6 NCC +XD6 NCC...etc....

[Cancer]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

I'd expect you'd have to link in an Analyze or Detect of some sort into the compound power build, and I'm also concerned about the "Here's a power that only hurts people I don't like ... and that's a limitation!" effect. There's gotta be a counter or a serious downside for this. Perhaps you handle that by having it be Uncontrolled, and then it hits someone in power who's more credible than the PC, but who is corrupt, but hasn't done anything provable yet....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

I have to disagree with most of the posters here on two important points:

 

1. I say the definition of corruption is irrelevent to the build. As long as the GM and the Player know what it means, it doesn't change the build. The only issue is: How corrupt is the average target? How often will a target be encountered that is so corrupt that he takes maximum effect? How often will a target be encountered that takes minimal (or no) effect?

 

2. You don't need to build this as a compound power. One limitation will do it: "Power is at a fraction of its effect proportional to the level of corruption of the target". Then you just have to decide the value of that limitation. -1 seems like a good starting point, if the average case will be that the power is half-strength. Maybe the limitation should be a little less than that, say -3/4, because it does grant a bit of "detect corruption level" utility. Another consideration that might reduce the value of the limitation is the possibility (don't know for sure since I don't know the details of your campaign), that more corrupt targets are going to be more powerful and more important to defeat, thus making the power more useful in more important situations, in which case it might only be -1/2.

[Klytus]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Thanks folks. Bonus-rep to tesuji for reminding me of Compound Powers and to Phil for Point #2.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

As for the build, I would just have a single power, say 10d6 EB, with the limitation that the damage can't exceed the "corruption level" of the target (-½). The "corruption level" is then defined as total points in "evil" Psych Lims, probably multiplied by a modifier for the level of evil (so Hates Killers might have a multiplier of x1, but Casual Killer a multiplier of x2 or something). You might have to tweak the numbers to get it to come out at the level you want.

 

As mentioned above, some things have no level of corruption (like a vending machine, no matter how frustrating they may be) and hence the attack is useless against inanimate objects. But I would propose that most people are at least slightly corrupt; after all, no one is perfect. They may not be affected strongly by this attack, but it may still sting. I would by default give everyone a 5 or 10 point level Disad "Self-Centered" for purposes of this attack, because that is human nature. This would open a number of role-playing opportunities I think, but also keep the limitation from becoming an advantage (esp. in hostage situations I am thinking).

 

What if we tweaked this to set the "default level" for a sentient being at a positive number, which is then inceased by Psych Lims or other personality quirks indicating corruption above the average, but also reduced by psych lims and personality quirks which indicate a nobler character than the norm? Perhaps the average person is a "6". Perhaps a character with Code vs Killing, Will Sacrifice Self to Save Others and Fears Harming Others with his Powers falls to a 1, while the Casual Killer who Likes to Play with his Victims is an "11"?

 

I do think this needs to move off the character sheet and consider how the character is played, however. A character with a code vs killing who role plays it scrupulously (normally attacking at reduced power to avoid risk of injury, for example) is very different from one who often tries to kill a frustrating opponent, only to be "unable to bring himself to do it" (failed the ego roll).

[Sean Waters]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Here's a slightly 'off the wall' approach: buy your Corruption Punisher attack as a straightforward EB, albeit at a pretty low level, say 6d6, or your suite of MP powers at a similarly low level.

 

Buy Find Weakness, defined as targetting corruption. You could argue that everyone is corrupt to some extent and their current level of corruption at the moment the atatck hits defines how effective the attack is. You cuold buy bonuses to find weakness limited to only work against corrupt targets.

 

That way you are doing more damage to more corrupt targets, usually.

 

You could arrange something similar with a RSR (detect corruption) limitation, which is about what Cancer suggested.

 

The reason I kinda like the FW approach is that it takes at least some of the pressure off the GM to be constantly assessing corruption levels.

[Klytus]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

What an intriguing idea...

[tesuji]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

I'd expect you'd have to link in an Analyze or Detect of some sort into the compound power build' date=' and I'm also concerned about the "Here's a power that only hurts people I don't like ... and that's a [i']limitation[/i]!" effect. There's gotta be a counter or a serious downside for this. Perhaps you handle that by having it be Uncontrolled, and then it hits someone in power who's more credible than the PC, but who is corrupt, but hasn't done anything provable yet....

 

the key to me is to define the limitations and assess their bvalue to be meaningful.

 

the values i chose were based on a game like i usually run, where MOST villains aren't killers and even try and not hurt people, but thieves and others are common. Also, most people will get hurt slightly because most people lie.

 

so its not really a "hurt people i dont like"

 

As for using it as a corruption detector, again it comes down to having fairly broad and meaningful categories. A veteran solider or even many police officers may well get "killed someone" and thus make the PC roll full damage... though the Gm may then half the effect due to penance and atonement. if the player wants to gain specific knowledge from the power, i would agree with an analyze for that info but not for the power's normal use. A good SFX for the analyze corruption could well be "i read the effects of my blast".

 

i mean, you dont need "detect force field" in order to hit someone and hurt them with a power thats "only vs force field".

 

now, for more limited campaigns or targets, like say in a doppelganger menace campaign, trying to take "only vs shapeshifters" as a lim.... probably not a wise choice for the Gm to value too much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

the key to me is to define the limitations and assess their bvalue to be meaningful.

 

Agree.

 

As for using it as a corruption detector' date=' again it comes down to having fairly broad and meaningful categories. A veteran solider or even many police officers may well get "killed someone" and thus make the PC roll full damage... though the Gm may then half the effect due to penance and atonement. if the player wants to gain specific knowledge from the power, i would agree with an analyze for that info but not for the power's normal use. A good SFX for the analyze corruption could well be "i read the effects of my blast".[/quote']

 

Here we get into the whole issue of SFX. If the presumption is "truly corrupt", penance and atonement should reduce or eliminate the damage. If it is "force the target to confront his sins", it may be even more effective if the target sincerely regrets those sins.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

What if we tweaked this to set the "default level" for a sentient being at a positive number, which is then inceased by Psych Lims or other personality quirks indicating corruption above the average, but also reduced by psych lims and personality quirks which indicate a nobler character than the norm? Perhaps the average person is a "6". Perhaps a character with Code vs Killing, Will Sacrifice Self to Save Others and Fears Harming Others with his Powers falls to a 1, while the Casual Killer who Likes to Play with his Victims is an "11"?

 

I do think this needs to move off the character sheet and consider how the character is played, however. A character with a code vs killing who role plays it scrupulously (normally attacking at reduced power to avoid risk of injury, for example) is very different from one who often tries to kill a frustrating opponent, only to be "unable to bring himself to do it" (failed the ego roll).

 

I like the idea of a "base level corruption" where noble Psych Lims lower the base and amoral ones increase it. Not that I am the one building this power, but it is an excellent idea. The system won't let me rep you again yet though.

 

______________________________________________________

Check out the "Song of The South" bluebirds

Face down in the plantation mud

So don't smile so wide for that lens

Crosshairs are not your friends

*Click click*

- Beauty Pill

[Sean Waters]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Another approach that occurs to me is this, or something like it:

 

MULTIPOWER

 

1. 4d6 RKA

2. 10d6 EB

3. 8d6 EB, stun only

 

You buy each slot with the No Conscious Control limtiation at the -1 value (NOT the reserve), and the slot that goes off is up to the GM, based on their assessment of 'corruption'. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and not having control over which slot is used is definitely a limtiation BUT that is balanced, IMO, by the certainty of not frying someone who is not corrupt. You could add mose slots if you felt it appropriate. In fact you could have completely different slots activating depending on what SORT of corruption the target had, perhaps based on the 7 deadly sins:

 

Wrath = 4d6 RKA Fire Blast

Gluttony = 4d6 Ranged Body Drain (heart attack)

Sloth = 4d6 ranged SPD drain

Lust = 12d6 Sight Flash attack (well, they say it makes you go blind)

Greed = 12d6 Mind Control (single command - give away all your possessions)

Pride = 12d6 PRE attack (causes target to cower or runaway in shame)

Envy = 12d6 Mind Control (single command, save the next enemy attacked from injury or ill)

 

If the PC had to decide which slot to use, you could put NCC on the reserve, potentially, and it simply would not work if he got it wrong.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Another approach that occurs to me is this, or something like it:

 

MULTIPOWER

 

1. 4d6 RKA

2. 10d6 EB

3. 8d6 EB, stun only

 

You buy each slot with the No Conscious Control limtiation at the -1 value (NOT the reserve), and the slot that goes off is up to the GM, based on their assessment of 'corruption'. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and not having control over which slot is used is definitely a limtiation BUT that is balanced, IMO, by the certainty of not frying someone who is not corrupt. You could add mose slots if you felt it appropriate. In fact you could have completely different slots activating depending on what SORT of corruption the target had, perhaps based on the 7 deadly sins:

 

 

Wrath = 4d6 RKA Fire Blast

Gluttony = 4d6 Ranged Body Drain (heart attack)

Sloth = 4d6 ranged SPD drain

Lust = 12d6 Sight Flash attack (well, they say it makes you go blind)

Greed = 12d6 Mind Control (single command - give away all your possessions)

Pride = 12d6 PRE attack (causes target to cower or runaway in shame)

Envy = 12d6 Mind Control (single command, save the next enemy attacked from injury or ill)

 

If the PC had to decide which slot to use, you could put NCC on the reserve, potentially, and it simply would not work if he got it wrong.

 

Very nice; this build sidesteps having to come up with a mechanic for the attack by making it GM fiat. I like the 7 deadly sins idea too, although I suspect the truly corrupt would probably have committed several of them and it seems wimpy that they only get punished for their most prevalent transgression instead of all of them.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

In fact you could have completely different slots activating depending on what SORT of corruption the target had, perhaps based on the 7 deadly sins:

 

Wrath = 4d6 RKA Fire Blast

Gluttony = 4d6 Ranged Body Drain (heart attack)

Sloth = 4d6 ranged SPD drain

Lust = 12d6 Sight Flash attack (well, they say it makes you go blind)

Greed = 12d6 Mind Control (single command - give away all your possessions)

Pride = 12d6 PRE attack (causes target to cower or runaway in shame)

Envy = 12d6 Mind Control (single command, save the next enemy attacked from injury or ill)

 

If the PC had to decide which slot to use, you could put NCC on the reserve, potentially, and it simply would not work if he got it wrong.

OTOH, you still need to figure out effects based on *degree* of corruption. Smacking someone in the face and chopping someone up with an axe might both fall under "Wrath" but one is more "corrupt" than the other.

 

And some of those traditional "deadly sins" aren't all that corrupting in and of themselves. It might be better to think of specific acts that corrupt one's soul, and how much each one does. If feeling Pride is worth 1 "corruption point," how much is murder worth? Or rape? Or bribery? Or grand theft? Or practicing black magic? Or selling your soul?

[Sean Waters]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

Very nice; this build sidesteps having to come up with a mechanic for the attack by making it GM fiat. I like the 7 deadly sins idea too' date=' although I suspect the truly corrupt would probably have committed several of them and it seems wimpy that they only get punished for their most prevalent transgression instead of all of them.[/quote']

 

If you have the points to build it as a single huge, linked attack (with the additional limitation that each element applies only if you have committed that sin), frankly I wouldn't like to meet you, at least not after watching FF2. I mean, Jessica Alba playing a married woman covers at least 3 of the Deadlies....

[Sean Waters]

Re: The more corrupt you are, the more it hurts

 

OTOH, you still need to figure out effects based on *degree* of corruption. Smacking someone in the face and chopping someone up with an axe might both fall under "Wrath" but one is more "corrupt" than the other.

 

And some of those traditional "deadly sins" aren't all that corrupting in and of themselves. It might be better to think of specific acts that corrupt one's soul, and how much each one does. If feeling Pride is worth 1 "corruption point," how much is murder worth? Or rape? Or bribery? Or grand theft? Or practicing black magic? Or selling your soul?

 

Interesting point: is it?

 

The consequences and enactment of the wrath may be of different degrees but each involves a surrender to that dark emotion. Of course you could it someone with a hand or an axe and not do it in anger. You might be experienceing some other dark emotion, envy, perhaps, or none of the above. An executioner, 'just doing his job' - is he corrupt, even though he may have killed more people than most serial killers? A soldier at war, is he corrupt, necessarily, because he takes lives?

 

Are there, indeed, degrees of corruption, or is it all black and white: if you, being weighed, are found wanting, then does it matter if the scales tipped a little or a lot?

 

Mind you it was just meant as a suggestion - I don't know enough about the character to come up with specifics.

 

I think that my problem with this sort of power, as a GM, is that it sounds like a lot of in-game work. Well, you either need to define all characters with a Virtue/Vice score or make it up when they get targetted.

 

Whilst I like the idea from a narrative POV I think it might be difficult to do in practice.

 

A much more interesting approach would be to simply give the character a physical limtiation that if he finds out that he punished someone who did not deserve it then he loses some or all of his powers until he atones

 

Transfer the angst back to the player