The Mind Controlling Hero

[Stephen Mann]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I have an NPC Emergency Medical Technician with a variety of color-based powers. One is his Calming Touch, a Mind Control-based power with only one command, "Calm Down". He often uses this on hysterical patients before using his Healing Touch, or on hostages that he rescues while the heroes distract the villains. When forced to fight supervillains, he'll try to calm them in order to end or shorten the fight (and reduce the collateral damage).

 

He has no ethical qualms about doing this since he doesn't see it as invasive or equivalent to mental rape. To him, it's no different than a doctor prescribing a sedative to settle an unruly patient.

[Hermit]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Presents a temptation, certainly... but a hero who never faces temptation hasn't proven himself, I'd say.

 

I can go with that. Gaze was certainly tempted more than once, and nearly cost himself a friendship with a team mate by threatening a supervillain with mental rewiring (the villain was a mass murderer, who used remote controlled robots so he didn't even have to face the people he slaughtered). The friend in question, having been the victim of PSI, had reason to have a sore button with it.

 

Still, I had a blast typing out the PRE attack against said villain:

 

Then, once the man stirs awake, "You lay stripped bare of your illusion of supremacy, vulnerable, helpless..and yet, there is so much more I can take from you. Your mind, your knowledge of things technical, I can make you FEAR machinery as much as you fear the light, you cowardly wretch, you miserable quivering pile of refuse. I will ask this and you will answer, do not make me go into the pathetic pit of your mind and take it from you, and do not," He rears back his open palm ready to strike while holding up the 'Annhilator' with the other hand, " make me sully my hands on you. Where are the other members of the Shift? What are their plans? Answer, before I get upset and...get creative."

 

Just because Gaze had the psych lim 'Ethical mentalist' doesn't mean he wasn't tempted, and it didn't mean he let the villains KNOW there were lines he wouldn't cross. And given PRIMUS agents had died when Shift had escaped already once before, Gaze was indeed tempted.

 

His friendship with his team, and his own conscience helped keep him from crossing that line. Good RP flirting with it though.

[psychonaut_raz]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I think you can gain a lot by having a PC mind controller/mentalist.....for one thing it opens the door to being able to use mentalist bad guys more when there's someone on the heroes' side who can stand up to them. In my previous campaigns, one of the biggest recurring villains of the game was a mentalist, and I don't think I'd have been able to get away with using him so much if the good guys hadn't been able to fight him on his own ground every now and then...

 

The biggest benefit though IMO is specifically that ethical question; Mindblade (the hero mentalist) used his powers sometimes in ways that were ethically murky, and there were things he did that his teammates never discovered....as a GM I think it's really interesting to be able to play with that aspect...

 

And if you're worried about them abusing the power, there are definite limitations/effects etc that you can put in place to make sure it can't destroy your game...

[OddHat]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I typically associate mind controllers with villains based on the ethical implications. But I was wondering' date=' has anybody had any experience with a mind controller as a hero? Is it possible to be a mind controlling hero? I'm thinking of making the attempt but am seeking guidance.[/quote']

 

Late to the thread, but yes. SatinKitty played a mind controlling heroine for about 13 years or so. The character mainly used Mental Illusions and Ego Attacks in combat, but the Mind Control option was there. We never got too deeply into the ethical issues, and she never pulled any stunts I considered abusive. She used it to calm down berserkers a fair amount, and pretty regularly to freeze people in place (I didn't like the other versions of Mental Paralysis). Her character was a psychiatrist in her secret ID, and retired to that profession full time when we finally retired the character.

 

I've used a Remo Williams type with touch based mind control, and a few Pulp style hypnotists.

 

The "Heroic" nature of the power is going to depend heavily on how you as a player choose to portray the character. Personally, I don't see slapping someone in a wrestling hold or pointing a gun at them and forcing them to do X as any more or less ethical than mind controlling them into doing the same thing. Coercion is coercion (obviously there are matters of degree); your character either has the legal and moral authority to act or he doesn't, though you could get into excessive force and appropriate use of force issues.

[OddHat]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

 

More to hand though, when you walk in front of me, you're seeing what I want you to see. What I've chosen to show you. If you're reading my thoughts, you're looking at things I want to keep private. If I want to "show" you my thoughts, I can, by speaking them, or writing them, if I'm not doing that, then you're invading a private place. It is the same ethical decision of reading someone's diary.

 

While I agree with this, I'd add that sometimes Superheroes have to walk into private places (secret headquarters mostly) and go through private papers and records to solve cases and save lives; it's part of the genre. Police do it in the real world, and with a search warrant it's considered to be an ethical course of action (baring special circumstances). The Telepath who searches through the mind of a nearby cute girl to find a way to talk her into bed is violating her privacy and behaving in an unethical manner; the Telepath who has good reason to believe that a given NPC has committed a crime and searches his mind for more information isn't on ethical ground any shakier than any other Vigilante/Superhero; the Telepathic Police Officer who searches the mind of a suspect has the same ethical guidelines to work with as any other cop would when searching the suspects home.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

See I disagree that coercion is all the same. If you pin me down. Imprison me, even intimidate me, my essential thoughts and feelings are still mine. My "me' is battered but still there. If I'm mind controlled My desires can be altered on a primal level. Given time my "me" can be changed to something completely different. frankly it hits me on such a gut level its hard to describe. Our group does have heroes with mind control but its rarely used beyond " these aren't the droids you're looking for' unless the character has some psychological limit that would get them to do morally challenged things occasionally.

[OddHat]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

See I disagree that coercion is all the same. If you pin me down. Imprison me' date=' even intimidate me, my essential thoughts and feelings are still mine. My "me' is battered but still there. If I'm mind controlled My desires can be altered on a primal level. Given time my "me" can be changed to something completely different. frankly it hits me on such a gut level its hard to describe. Our group does have heroes with mind control but its rarely used beyond " these aren't the droids you're looking for' unless the character has some psychological limit that would get them to do morally challenged things occasionally.[/quote']

 

I respect this position, and I share your aversion to the idea of destroying and re-writing someone else's essential self. However, I'd submit that you can re-write someone else's essential self through drugs, torture, prolonged abuse, love bombing and other forms of brainwashing in the real world. Fictional Mind Control just makes it much faster and more precise.

 

I'm not saying it's ethical for the team mind controller to re-write a villain into a broken wreck; I'm saying that it's just as unethical to do in a few minutes with mind control what would otherwise take a few months or years of real world abuse.

 

This doesn't stop Mind Controlling heroes from finding ethical uses for their powers. My standard is "If it would be ethical or unethical using real world means, it remains ethical or unethical using fictional means."

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Part of my issue with tackling this debate is how much its terms shift.

 

Mind control, the Champions power mechanic, doesn't have or give much of what is laid out in this thread as its 'problem' areas, it certainly doesn't have these aspects either uniquely or in their most extreme and blatant forms, and only extreme uses or builds of the mechanic achieve these problems.

 

The 42 pts of Mind Control effect a mentalist can achieve straight up for 60 AP can do pretty substantial things against most characters. Most mentalists will hit fairly reliably against most characters.

 

Mind Control is not inherently visible except to the target (i.e.100% of targets can see it, and further know exactly WHO is doing it) and those with Mental Awareness (about 20% of PC's, in my experience). Basic Mind Control is not telepathic, and commands must be given verbally in a language the target understands (approaching 100% observable by all characters). Even when the commands are given out of hearing of others, Mind Control can be deduced to be happening by perceptible cues (about 34% chance for Everyman Skills, more for detectives, those familiar with the target's normal behaviour, etc.).

 

Compare with a surprise attack by stealth. Normally, stealth succeeds when employed by stealth specialists about as well as Mind Control succeeds. The resulting surprise attack hits at least as often as an Egoists mental attacks against the surprised target. The doubled stun of a surprise attack (on top of called location, if locations are used) is generally a pretty good guarantee for an intelligent attacker that they will not be seen by the unconscious target. And the victim has no idea WHO did it to them. Most GM's give martial arts attacks using stealth roughly the equivalent of IPE (i.e., unless you were watching, you don't see or hear the attack), and nothing stops stealth specialists from buying IPE powers, (including Ego Attack, touch range, e.g.).

 

All of the rest of the 'forget' or 'do not know' or 'invisible' or 'no need to talk' aspects of Mind Control require spending points for advantages, or hitting quite steep adder levels, dropping that 42 to 32, 27 or 22 or usually less. Suddenly, Mind Control does not seem the way to go if you want to be tempted by vast power. At least not efficiently. The right way is to be a Martial Artist with high dex, a base with a good soundproof cell, and some skill points in interrogation and neurosurgery.

 

So, off hand, I'm wondering, why the mad-on to kill Mentalists with Mind Control, when the obvious, blatant, clear threat is the martial artists?

[Vondy]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

This is entirely dependent on how ethical/principled the hero with mind control is. The Freedom Patrol had a member with an impressive "telepathy" VPP that, by definition, allowed such effects. I never had issues with how the character was used. True, the FP campaign was grittier/edgier than most supers games, but you could have a more bronze or silver age hero who had such abilities insofar as they acted by the campaign's definition of "heroic" and only used their powers for the good and within whatever organizational or legal bounds applied.

[Vondy]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

See I disagree that coercion is all the same. If you pin me down. Imprison me' date=' even intimidate me, my essential thoughts and feelings are still mine. My "me' is battered but still there. If I'm mind controlled My desires can be altered on a primal level. Given time my "me" can be changed to something completely different. frankly it hits me on such a gut level its hard to describe. Our group does have heroes with mind control but its rarely used beyond " these aren't the droids you're looking for' unless the character has some psychological limit that would get them to do morally challenged things occasionally.[/quote']

 

I think a distinction needs to be made between altering your mental or emotional processes and temporarily interrupting them in order to control a dangerous situation. An empath who controlled emotions, or a telepath who manipulated thoughts (even without going so far as to edit them) is on highly questionable ethical ground. Indeed, in many cases, such manipulation would be flat out unethical.

 

On the other hand, a telepath who temporarily imposes their will with the words "don't move" on a man who is robbing a bank or holding a hostage is essentially using "mental force," and is acting well within ethical bounds in my opinion. In this sort of case they are no more violating their target than someone who uses drugs, a taser, grappling, or even higher levels of force to bring the situation to a close.

 

And we would all agree, I think, that in extreme, dangerous situations, conventional uses of force are appropriate. Why not "mental force"? Indeed, they are bringing a bloodless resolution to a situation that is clearly out of hand and might very well end in tragedy if conventional solutions were attempted.

 

Its really a question of circumstances. For a hero who only uses mind control in situations where conventional force would be appropriate the regular use of empathy and telepathy actually brings up more frequent ethical and legal questions. Reading someone's personal thoughts, or sensing their emotions, is a pretty big invasion of the implicit right to privacy.

[Thrakazog]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Thanks for the input, all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Not really. You just tell him not to remember being commanded like any cinematic hypnotist. It's a hint to others' date=' but not to the victim.[/quote']

 

As others have noted, this requires an extreme effect roll. EGo +30 20 to not emember requires a 60 point roll against an average 10 ego target. That's 20d6 standard effect, 18d6 average roll.

 

It is only moral or ethical to beat someone into unconsciousness if they are actually attacking you.

 

What if they are attacking a third party? Heroes tend to protect the innocent, not just themselves. Would a character who controls others' thoughts on a whim be Heroic? No. Neither would cn energy projector who randomly starts fires, or a Brick or Martial Artists who picks bar fights. But that doesn't mean the powers themselves are intrinsically "unheroic". Darth Vader, the Emperor, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker all had the same basic power suite. It's HOW they used them that determines whether they are heroic.

 

I see no particular reason to assume that mind control wouldn't have the same potential to psychologically screw up people that physical assault has to mess people up on that level.

 

So no better, but also no worse.

 

The difference is you know when you've been punched.

 

Not if you were punched hard enough The target will recover from the mind control. Permanent enslavement isn't an option I see used by characters in game. However, it would be no more acceptable than slitting the throats of defeated villains so they don't cause any more trouble in the future, but realistically no less acceptable either.

 

Or people who just say "I don't wanna."

 

And if they have the willpower to resist temptation, they have the will[power to resist both interaction skills and mind control - both stem from Ego.

 

Basically, what I'm hearing is that only physical confrontation can possibly be heroic.

[Clonus]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

As others have noted' date=' this requires an extreme effect roll. EGo +30 20 to not emember requires a 60 point roll against an average 10 ego target. [/quote']

 

Do you think an ego +30 roll is necessary to do anything with mind control?

 

 

 

 

What if they are attacking a third party? Heroes tend to protect the innocent, not just themselves. Would a character who controls others' thoughts on a whim be Heroic? No. Neither would cn energy projector who randomly starts fires, or a Brick or Martial Artists who picks bar fights.

 

The difference being the the character who controls others thoughts on a whim can get away with it not being noticed.

 

 

 

 

And if they have the willpower to resist temptation, they have the will[power to resist both interaction skills and mind control - both stem from Ego.

 

Or you just say "I don't wanna. My character isn't tempted".

[Cancer]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Y'know, it's nowhere required that a character with Mind Control must also have the ability to read minds. If he didn't, that could lead to ... interesting ... situations, where the character had no solid handle on motives at the time he impelled his target to a particular action.

 

I'm with the crowd who think that a mind controller does not have to be evil; it is, as always, the actions chosen that make for heroes. Now, much depends on the campaign flavor: silver/bronze/iron age campaigns constrain actions differently by their flavor, of course.

 

EDIT: I'm done editing this now, after hitting "submit" way too soon and working it after that.

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

 

Do you think an ego +30 roll is necessary to do anything with mind control?

To turn the question around, do you believe that anything done with mind control is always bad, evil, wrong, immoral?

 

Ego +30 is the level required to get the effect of forcing the target to forget that they've been mind controlled, over and above whatever level of mind control was required for the original effect. Based on the effects in examples provided, i.e. +20, the answer addresses the question that was asked.

The difference being the the character who controls others thoughts on a whim can get away with it not being noticed.

As has been examined by many people on this thread, this just does not bear water. Everyone can get away with anything with it not being noticed. Mind control has specific mechanics for being noticed and for not being noticed. For Mind control to not be noticed requires spending a lot more points than for most forms of unnoticed activities. Add into this, the target of Mind control knows exactly who used the power against them, as part of the mechanic, except in this extremely expensive mode -- something that is not shared by attacks delivered in darkness, by surprise if they knock out the target, from invisibility or in disguise. Mind control is one of the worst ways to try to be undiscovered, point for point.

Or you just say "I don't wanna. My character isn't tempted".

You, as the PC, can for PC characters, say this. NPC's can't. They're ruled by the rolls.

 

And most decent RPers weigh their character's motivations and psych. lims, and decide whether their PC is tempted.. and often, they wanna. Just as effectively as if they were Mind controlled.

[Clonus]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

To turn the question around, do you believe that anything done with mind control is always bad, evil, wrong, immoral?

 

 

Obviously not. I was merely discussing why mind controllers recieve the lion's share of mistrust. And that the rules of this game nerf mind controllers is to a great extent the product of that mistrust.

[Comic]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Ah. A premise I can grapple with. Two!

 

1.) Mind controllers receive the lion's share of mistrust.

2.) Mind control is nerfed.

 

To take on 1.) first. The Purple Man is a Hulk-level Mind controlling arch-villain. His entire shtick is mind control, and nothing but mind control. He's a thorough villain, less moral than a raccoon, and as likely to indulge any whim as one. In contrast, Hulk is a hero without mind control. Which of them would I trust more? Well, see, Purple Pants has these frequent blinding rages and the tendency to destroy cities. Purple Man? Leaves masses of victims mainly to their own devices or to harmless pastimes while once in a while getting waited on hand-and-foot like royalty, for the majority of his career.

 

I'd trust the Mind controlling villain over the berserking hero, in this situation.

 

Not that I'd invite either into my life, if I had the choice.

 

I agree that some people distrust mentalists. Indeed, some have a stark-raving psychotic level of rage against the very concept.. but it's not something universal, or even commonplace, or naturally explicable as a general rule. A few people feel this way, I'd say. Like some people don't like chocolate.

 

 

2.) Mind control is nerfed? Wha?

 

Erm.. howso? Sure, it's more expensive to do some things than other mechanics, but it's hardly overpriced for what you get, nor is it underpowered, as far as I can tell. How is it nerfed? I don't see it as greatly changed from earlier editions, or as a terribly poor power to buy for a character with the right concept.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Do you think an ego +30 roll is necessary to do anything with mind control?

 

To violate deeply held beliefs, which has been the thrust of your attack, it would require +30 - it seems reasonable that violating my deeply held beliefs is something I am violently opposed to.

 

The difference being the the character who controls others thoughts on a whim can get away with it not being noticed.

 

And a character with an IPE energy blast can give hotfoots without being noticed. So what? Pretty much any power can be abused. Mental powers are far from unique in this regard.

 

Or you just say "I don't wanna. My character isn't tempted".

 

This, in a nutshell, is the issue I think PLAYERS have with Mind Control (and, for that matter, with interaction skills). Loss of control of the character is, for many players, a "fate worse than death".

 

In my view, there is no real reason PC's should enjoy automatic exemption from interaction skills, unless similar exemptions are permitted to NPC's where their personalities dictate that they "don't wanna" or "aren't tempted". However, that's a separate issue. I would consider a PC with an established personality as a womanizer (as an example) who "isn't tempted" by a seductress to be role playing poorly, justifying an xp penalty. If he had a disadvantage reflecting that personality trait, he'd also be told to buy it off since he's not willing to play to it.

 

I've certainly seen my share of "tactical role players", players who will never have their character make any decision based on personality which would be less than fully optimal from a tactical perspective. Many avoid any action which they feel could expose them to any risk. Others have their characters take stupid or random actions. Basically, these players run their characters like pawns on a chessboard, not like real people with actual personalities. I find that approach makes for, at best, an annoying game.

 

As to the "mind control is nerfed" argument, I hear that a lot, normally from players who had visions of utterly dominating their targets with that mind control power. Mind control is not, and should not be, capable of taking a target out of the combat in a single shot. To KO a target generally requires more than one phase. A Mind Control power taking the target out in a single shot, reliably, would be overpowered. If you want a character who dominates others' minds, you want a Cumulative Mind Control, perhaps wirth an increased maximum. This will require more than one hit to take the target out, but can reliably dominate. As an example, 6d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, 4x maximum, can hit 144 points. I can declare a +30 effect, which the target won't remember (+20) and will impose -8 on their breakout rolls (+40), so I now need a total of Ego +90. I can eventually effect an Ego of up to 54, and I need a total of 110 to get a 20 Ego target (90%+ of all targets). That 20 Ego target now has a breakout roll of 5-. Good luck with that!

 

That will take, on average, 4.4 hits, but it's also a very powerful effect. How many hits, on average, does it take to KO a villain?

[Clonus]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

 

2.) Mind control is nerfed? Wha?

 

Erm.. howso? Sure, it's more expensive to do some things than other mechanics, but it's hardly overpriced for what you get, .

 

It is nerfed by comparison with what comic book mind controllers like Xavier or Doctor Druid are capable of. Also of course the argument was that mind controllers couldn't mess around because they couldn't get the requisite +30 result. Well that applies to legitimate as well as illegitimate applications.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

That will take' date=' on average, 4.4 hits, but it's also a very powerful effect. How many hits, on average, does it take to KO a villain?[/quote']

 

IMO, Mind Control (as well as Illusions) is a bit nerfy, though not completely nerfed. This is because even a Cumulative MC isn't really comparable to normal damage-dealing attacks.

 

One problem being, the (sometimes illogical) "kill the mentalist"** viewpoint, which I've seen GMs suffer from just as much as players. While the opposing team could just as easily beat down a non-mentalist as they could a mentalist, doing so to the latter can reduce or outright nullify everything the mentalist had done to that point.

 

For example, BlasterBoy hits Captain Target, doing 21 STUN past defenses. Target's team gangs up on BB and takes him out -- but Cap is still down 21 STUN, making it easier for BB's teammates to finish him off.

 

Now, instead, imagine Mentallo hit Captain Target with his cumulative Mind Control, getting 21 points of effect. Similarly, Target's team gangs up on Mentallo and takes him out -- and the effect of the Mind Control may as well have not happened, because it ain't gonna have any further effect in the combat.

 

Now, turn that Mind Control into a Continuous Uncontrolled attack, pour enough END into it for 5-6 phases, and you've got something.

 

** As a GM, I've been tempted to draw up a low-power mentalist with incredibly high STUN and defenses out the wazoo. He hits a PC with a 3d6 Cumulative Mind Control, so the PCs concentrate attacks on him... meanwhile, the mentalist's teammates get in some free attacks on the PCs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

IMO' date=' Mind Control (as well as Illusions) [u']is[/u] a bit nerfy, though not completely nerfed. This is because even a Cumulative MC isn't really comparable to normal damage-dealing attacks.

 

One problem being, the (sometimes illogical) "kill the mentalist"** viewpoint, which I've seen GMs suffer from just as much as players. While the opposing team could just as easily beat down a non-mentalist as they could a mentalist, doing so to the latter can reduce or outright nullify everything the mentalist had done to that point.

 

For example, BlasterBoy hits Captain Target, doing 21 STUN past defenses. Target's team gangs up on BB and takes him out -- but Cap is still down 21 STUN, making it easier for BB's teammates to finish him off.

 

Now, instead, imagine Mentallo hit Captain Target with his cumulative Mind Control, getting 21 points of effect. Similarly, Target's team gangs up on Mentallo and takes him out -- and the effect of the Mind Control may as well have not happened, because it ain't gonna have any further effect in the combat.

 

This is an issue for most powers that don't cause STUN damage. A Transform has the same issue, for example. A character who does BOD, but not STUN, damage in a typical Supers game will have this isssue - if he doesn't kill the target, no one else likely gets BOD past typical Super defenses.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

Maybe, compared to Xavier but he's frankly equal to Odin in his own field. Mind control works pretty well for me. Combat mind control is dicey but then I feel it should be. On the other hand insidious conversational cumulative mind control really rocks.

[Cancer]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

One problem being' date=' the (sometimes illogical) "kill the mentalist"** viewpoint, which I've seen GMs suffer from just as much as players. While the opposing team could just as easily beat down a non-mentalist as they could a mentalist, doing so to the latter can reduce or outright nullify everything the mentalist had done to that point.[/quote']

 

I also have seen GMs succumb to this. Doesn't even take a Mind Control power. A BOECV Entangle can be enough to to draw Target #1 status.

[Vondy]

Re: The Mind Controlling Hero

 

I also have seen GMs succumb to this. Doesn't even take a Mind Control power. A BOECV Entangle can be enough to to draw Target #1 status.

 

I think this is sometimes backed up by campaign realities - meaning the experience of the characters within the game world. If mentalists consistently prove an effective threat then playing "smear the mentalist" will become a logical - and in character - decision to make. This is also true of people with other effective and exotic powers. Its only a problem when that identification is unrealistically instant (i.e., the result of meta-gaming or knee-jerk reactions). If its a matter of good sense for the characters, however, it shouldn't be considered a problem. In my Freedom Patrol mentalists tended to be both rare and powerful. It was accepted that, should a known mentalist be on the field against tactically adept and informed opponents, they were going to become a target with an "extreme prejudice" sign taped on their back. They were queens on a chessboard - you protect your own and go after the other guys. Succeed and you swing the advantage your way. And rightfully so, too, I think.