Rules to ignore, or replace

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Without the touch group its just images; with only the touch group its ridiculous (unless you're a stretchy guy - which makes you pretty ridiculous... ).

 

Touch only shape shift does work for a narrow set of applications, but without the touch sense you haven't changed shape (and should be buying images instead).

 

The only issue I have is that you can buy the power without the touch group and there is an EXTANT POWER that covers all such possibilities.

 

Essentially, you should only be able to purchase sense groups in addition to touch.

 

Ah, but shapeshift allows you to do so much more...want to fool Wolverine's tracking scent power? SmellShift. No need to change actual SHAPE. I agree that it will be rare that I'd allow a SightShift without a TouchShift too, unless it was a hologram disguise or something like, but whilst I appreciate your sentiments, I think ShapeShift can do a lot that does not require a redistribution or movement of mass.

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Ah' date=' but shapeshift allows you to do so much more...want to fool Wolverine's tracking scent power? SmellShift. No need to change actual SHAPE. I agree that it will be rare that I'd allow a SightShift without a TouchShift too, unless it was a hologram disguise or something like, but whilst I appreciate your sentiments, I think ShapeShift can do a lot that does not require a redistribution or movement of mass.[/quote']

 

Which misses the point. Yes, you can do those things with it, but as written images can be bought for different sense groups, too. As a result one of these powers is redundant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well, not redundant. I appreciate that you COULD build a power that did everything that IMAGES + SHAPESHIFT does with the appropriate adders and such, but they work in different ways. Images applies a modifier to the senses, shapeshift makes, in effect, a perfect change. You can't see through a SightShift, because the change has taken place, even if you use identical SFX - say a hologram - they work differently at a mechanical level. Yes you could make Images 0 range and self only, and buy a ridiculously high PER penalty, but there will be someone who can see through it by luck or high PER.

 

However you might give yourself away with a shapeshift, it won't be through the senses you are affecting.

 

The argument that ALL shapeshift does uniquely is allow mass redistribution is flawed, for the reasons above. It is certainly one unique feature of the power, but by no means the only one. IMO. Normal exclusions and waivers apply.

 

One other thing that is not explicit, but is strongly implied that sets them apart is that the changes are efefctively real. That means that a SmellShift trail would not suddenly revert to your own scent when you change back to your normal form - it remains what it was at the time. Similarlty if someone extracts your DNA and analyses it (assuming you have cellularshift) then it does not revert to your DNA later.

 

Images does not have that permanent effect, and even if bought 0 END uncontrolled it will still revert to 'you' under reasonably common or obvious circumstances.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Touch only shape shift does work for a narrow set of applications' date=' but without the touch sense you haven't changed shape (and should be buying images instead).[/quote']

 

And this is why I think that the name of the power is the one making the disconnect in a lot of people's thoughts. There is a game effect here and instead we are all looking at the name and thinking a physical change in shape because the name of the power is shapeshift.

 

I do think there is continuum here between a number of powers from shapeshift to images to stretching to shrinking/growth. They all have unique game effects and if you simply work out what game effect you want to use then that is great.

 

You can say that if you dont change the touch sense then you aren't changing shape but if you aren't changing sight then you aren't changing shape either. As Sean said, there are applications of either that can round out a power set.

 

Don't know where I'm going now - obviously still tumbling Sean...

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Can I just say how impressed I am with all the Plastic Man pictures people have been posting? Brightens the place up. Well done chaps

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

And this is why I think that the name of the power is the one making the disconnect in a lot of people's thoughts. There is a game effect here and instead we are all looking at the name and thinking a physical change in shape because the name of the power is shapeshift.

 

I do think there is continuum here between a number of powers from shapeshift to images to stretching to shrinking/growth. They all have unique game effects and if you simply work out what game effect you want to use then that is great.

 

You can say that if you dont change the touch sense then you aren't changing shape but if you aren't changing sight then you aren't changing shape either. As Sean said, there are applications of either that can round out a power set.

 

Don't know where I'm going now - obviously still tumbling Sean...

 

 

Doc

 

I understand your point - and think its an element - but there is also a question of legacy. The power used to be exactly what it was called and only that. The expansion of the power in this edition has created a significant overlap with another extant power in terms of potential applications. There is a difference and what Sean is saying makes a coherent sort of sense, but the issue isn't just semantics - there is also a blurring of the lines in terms of where one power starts and the other stops. In fact, in terms of shape-shift without mass redistribution the added limitation "illusory only" would completely remove the difference Sean called out with images as it was applied to the self. If you extrapolate the potential for usable against others on the power begins to blur into transorm land, too (I know transform is the orthodox method for doing this, but when you get down to logical applications it would make sense for many special effects). At this point the only thing we need images for is large scale illusions that don't affect discrete nouns (individual people, objects, etcetera) because it would be cleaner to affect discrete nouns with a shapeshift that had illusory only tacked on. The problem I have isn't that you can't use the power as written - it works very well - but that its expansion in this edition has created conceptual gray areas with two other powers. The definitions of all three powers needs to be more carefully reworked as they all overlap and can be used for similar effects. Change one and you affect them all. This has happened with several aspects of the system in this edition and seems to imply a madcap understanding of hero's underlying metaphysics - or, at least, a surreal notion that the various mechanics and powers are discrete elements that can be tinkered with in a carefree devil may care manner and still have no effect on anything else in the system. Reworking shapeshift was a fine idea, but it also required a comprehensive rework (or at least definition tuning) of images, transform, usable on and against others, etc.

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well, not redundant. I appreciate that you COULD build a power that did everything that IMAGES + SHAPESHIFT does with the appropriate adders and such, but they work in different ways. Images applies a modifier to the senses, shapeshift makes, in effect, a perfect change. You can't see through a SightShift, because the change has taken place, even if you use identical SFX - say a hologram - they work differently at a mechanical level. Yes you could make Images 0 range and self only, and buy a ridiculously high PER penalty, but there will be someone who can see through it by luck or high PER.

 

However you might give yourself away with a shapeshift, it won't be through the senses you are affecting.

 

The argument that ALL shapeshift does uniquely is allow mass redistribution is flawed, for the reasons above. It is certainly one unique feature of the power, but by no means the only one. IMO. Normal exclusions and waivers apply.

 

One other thing that is not explicit, but is strongly implied that sets them apart is that the changes are efefctively real. That means that a SmellShift trail would not suddenly revert to your own scent when you change back to your normal form - it remains what it was at the time. Similarlty if someone extracts your DNA and analyses it (assuming you have cellularshift) then it does not revert to your DNA later.

 

Images does not have that permanent effect, and even if bought 0 END uncontrolled it will still revert to 'you' under reasonably common or obvious circumstances.

 

And yet, I could tack "illusory only" onto shapeshift and get the same result as images (and a price break!). The only practical use for images at this point is for fooling perceptions of things other than a discrete the self (or even another person if you allow shapeshift with UAO instead of transform). In terms of power overlap, especially when modifiers start to come into play, the only pragmatic reason for images to exist lies in what it affects as opposed to how it affects it). See my post above to Doc Dem for a deeper understanding of my issue.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I understand your point - and think its an element - but there is also a question of legacy.

 

I agree with you. I think that several powers were 'expanded' in scope and Shapeshift was reworked to be coherent with those. That has created a significant potential overlap. I think that Steve could significantly rework all of these powers to make them coherent underneath a banner heading of Sensory Shifting.

 

That should enable a wide range of effects under one heading and allow for simple fooling of senses to actual changes to the substances senses percieve.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So, the visible sfx of a touch shapeshift is that the character LOOKS different. Not enough to fool anyone - it is just sfx after all.

 

Cool. What's next?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think Von D-Man and Doc Democracy make some excellent points in a well reasoned argument.

 

I think there are differences between the powers, but that is not to say that, with 6th edition no doubt being considered, they will remain discreet forever.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Thanks very much for the Shape Shift/ Images/ etc. discussion. Very illuminating. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I would like to open a new discussion topic.

 

Like a number of posters I've been less than happy about the official prohibition against applying the Ranged Advantage to Hand-To-Hand Attack, when one can do so for a HKA. Officially the only way to build, say, a melee weapon which can be both thrown and wielded HTH is by using a Multipower; but even if campaigns that don't generally use Power Frameworks make an exception for this, the Ranged attack is unaffected by the character's Strength, which seems somewhat illogical and is mechanically inconsistent with how Killing Attacks are designed.

 

I'm going to briefly analyse the differences between HA with Range, and a HKA with Range, with an eye to the possible problems with such a construct which may have contributed to the official prohibition; but also offer a possible solution. If you want to go directly to the solution, skip to the bottom of this post.

 

IMO the problem with 5E Hand-To-Hand Attack in this context is twofold. One is the logical contradiction: part of the definition of Hand-To-Hand Attack is that it excludes Range, so adding Range via an Advantage is a direct conceptual conflict. The other problem is that HA is effectively a Limitation on STR or EB that changes how they function mechanically. It's only partly the loss of Figured Characteristics from STR, or Range from EB, that makes the difference. HA also adds STR damage without prorating it for the Advantages on the HA; OTOH HKA is prorated for Advantages, including Ranged. E.g. if you were to Limit an EB with HA, but add Ranged back in via Advantage, you would get something with all the abilities of an Energy Blast, plus the capacity to be used HTH, plus the lack of prorating, for the same Real Points as an unmodified Energy Blast of the same Damage Class. Granted, the Active Points and END use would be greater for the ranged HA, but there are still balance issues there (again IMO).

 

However, when I was considering a Ranged HKA, I noticed that it has three components. HKA is comprised of the base Damage that it does, plus the extra Damage due to adding STR. The Ranged Advantage adds a third component, the ability to do all that damage at range. Now consider that an Energy Blast has two of those components, the base Damage and the capacity for Range. What I propose is adding the third component as an Advantage, "STR Adds To Damage." I would rate that as +1/2, the same as Ranged. I would define it to work the same as for HKA; STR can increase Damage up to double the base Damage Class of the Power, and STR is prorated for any Advantages.

 

Now you have a Modified EB that functions the same mechanically, and has the same Active and Real Points, as a Ranged HKA of equal Damage Class. The only difference is that between Normal and Killing Damage. This would leave Hand-To-Hand Attack as a distinct non-Ranged Power, which is what it was intended to be. If a Ranged HKA can be considered balanced, it's logical that this would be too, especially since if this new Advantage were added to a RKA it would make it identical in all respects to a Ranged HKA.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Nice, well thought-out greivance and solution, LL.

 

HAs have that underlying structure of STR Only for increasing damage that falls well within, IMO, a disadvantage that doesn't really disadvantage in most games. At least it doesn't disadvantage more than the inclusive No Figured Char but it is valued moreso. Hard to negotiate that territory between 4 pt Damage Classes (appropriately costed IMO) and 3 pt HAs (too cheap and readily available.)

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Nice, well thought-out greivance and solution, LL.

 

HAs have that underlying structure of STR Only for increasing damage that falls well within, IMO, a disadvantage that doesn't really disadvantage in most games. At least it doesn't disadvantage more than the inclusive No Figured Char but it is valued moreso. Hard to negotiate that territory between 4 pt Damage Classes (appropriately costed IMO) and 3 pt HAs (too cheap and readily available.)

 

I disagree I do feel that it is significantly (though not greatly) more limiting than a HA, as you are giving up many combat effects, if it was just the few things that don't fall inbetween combat effects and NCM I would agree with you (This is a refrence to STR rolls, extra leaping, throwing distance and lift)

 

however the lack of combat manuevers to me is a big deal, I am refering to grabs, disarms and other such manuevers

 

Personaly I would drop HA as a power totaly and provide the following lims under characteristics power for str

 

Does not include Str abilities (refering to lift, leaping, throwing and Str rolls) -1/4

 

Does not include diirect Damage -1/2

 

Does not include non direct damage abilities -1/4 (This is the grab/disarm type of stuff)

 

I would also allow range be bought on it...

[GMumford]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

re: Plastic Man

 

example 2

 

Example 2 requires Shape Shift vs. Touch. In a low lighting situation it is possible that he might visually confuse someone who is only noticing the outline of the shape.

 

Ok, say Plasticman here wants to intercept some legal documents from Matt Murdock(Daredevil).

Mr. Murdock is blind so he doesn't notice the different coloration. He notices the mailbox doesn't smell like a mailbox, but let's just say Mr. Murdock assumes someone is mailing a package of bad cologne which broke. When he touches the mailbox, because Plasticman has apparently bought Shapeshift vs Touch, he feels a cold metal box. (Does Plasticman have the ability to feel like a cold metal box?) What does Daredevil's radar sense see if Plasticman has changed physical shape, but didn't purchase Shapeshift vs Radar Sense.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Ok, say Plasticman here wants to intercept some legal documents from Matt Murdock(Daredevil).

Mr. Murdock is blind so he doesn't notice the different coloration. He notices the mailbox doesn't smell like a mailbox, but let's just say Mr. Murdock assumes someone is mailing a package of bad cologne which broke. When he touches the mailbox, because Plasticman has apparently bought Shapeshift vs Touch, he feels a cold metal box. (Does Plasticman have the ability to feel like a cold metal box?) What does Daredevil's radar sense see if Plasticman has changed physical shape, but didn't purchase Shapeshift vs Radar Sense.

 

I had this last situation come up in a game, for Radar and for Sonar. Assuming the Senses in question are Discriminatory, I ruled that the absorbency of "Plasticman's" body to those sensory emissions is that of flesh rather than metal, so that the returning reflection isn't what it should be for a metallic object. That's also the case for such senses used on an object which has Shape Shift to Sight, but not to Touch and Hearing or Radio.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I disagree I do feel that it is significantly (though not greatly) more limiting than a HA, as you are giving up many combat effects, if it was just the few things that don't fall inbetween combat effects and NCM I would agree with you (This is a refrence to STR rolls, extra leaping, throwing distance and lift)

 

however the lack of combat manuevers to me is a big deal, I am refering to grabs, disarms and other such manuevers.

 

HA does provide one significant compensatory factor in exchange for those losses. No matter how many Advantages are placed on the HA, the STR used to increase it is not prorated. E.g. if you have a HA 4d6, Armor Piercing, raising it to 8d6 AP requires only the application of 20 STR. I'm not asserting definitively that that balances all the losses, but the trade off is closer than it might appear at first.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well, I tried to go with your deflection away from Shapeshift, Lord Liaden, but if you still want to talk about it....

 

My biggest complaint with Shapeshift is that it is a perfect shifting of shape, and "perfect" doesn't belong in a scalar game. No matter if I'm Near-Sighted NegaMan or Captain Supervision if I encounter a Shapeshifted person I believe their duplicity of form to the extent that they bought the power. If Feralboy dumped 40 pts into Senses and +PER he expects to be able to sniff out a disguise every once in awhile and Shapeshift, as it's currently constructed, robs that character blind.

 

The source genre material is chock full of shapeshifters being found out; what makes us think there even is such a thing as a "perfect" shapechange?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

What does Daredevil's radar sense see if Plasticman has changed physical shape' date=' but didn't purchase Shapeshift vs Radar Sense.[/quote']

 

Per The Ultimate Metamorph, he sees an outline of a mailbox. Shapeshift vs. Radio Sense is for changing "energy signatures."

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

What does Daredevil's radar sense see if Plasticman has changed physical shape' date=' but didn't purchase Shapeshift vs Radar Sense.[/quote']Actually it's another of those problems with the Name not accurately representing what the power Is, or am I the only one who thinks Daredevil's Radar Sense would be bought with Spacial Awareness. Golly, another dilemma because you can't Shape Shift vs. Unusual Sense Groups. So, do we need another Adder for Shape Shift or does Daredevil get to perceive through all Shape Shifts?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

The source genre material is chock full of shapeshifters being found out; what makes us think there even is such a thing as a "perfect" shapechange?

 

Chameleon Man has color-changing skin; one of the Powers that's bought as is Shape Shift vs. Sight, only to Change Color (-2). His skin actually changes color. Why should someone be able to "see through" that to figure out that he's not naturally blue or green or what have you?

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Chameleon Man has color-changing skin; one of the Powers that's bought as is Shape Shift vs. Sight' date=' only to Change Color (-2). His skin actually changes color. Why should someone be able to "see through" that to figure out that he's not naturally blue or green or what have you?[/quote']

 

What does he use to determine what color he changes into? Does he sense the color of the objects behind him and project them onto the side facing the observer, leaving himself vulnerable to multiple observers or the objects behind him varying or changing color unheeded by Chameleon Man? How well can CM exactly duplicate the color he was the last time the observer saw him, or is he sometimes bluer than others or occasionally looking a little green today? If this is used to emulate other races a casual observer (average PER) might not notice that Cham Man has ebony skin and Caucasian features but the detective (high PER) probably would and should, but how much should we modify the PER Roll by?

 

One of the driving precepts of HERO is that there is always a defense and it should be cheaper than power you are defending against. Shape Shift is so ill-defined that it is indefensible.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Actually it's another of those problems with the Name not accurately representing what the power Is' date=' or am I the only one who thinks Daredevil's Radar Sense would be bought with Spacial Awareness. Golly, another dilemma because you can't Shape Shift vs. Unusual Sense Groups. So, do we need another Adder for Shape Shift or does Daredevil get to perceive through all Shape Shifts?[/quote']

 

I don't see the dilemma. Shapeshift vs Touch changes the actual physical shape of the character. So Daredevil with his Spacial Awareness (which is a Detect: Physical Object) detects the physical object with its new shape. What's the problem?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I don't see the dilemma. Shapeshift vs Touch changes the actual physical shape of the character. So Daredevil with his Spacial Awareness (which is a Detect: Physical Object) detects the physical object with its new shape. What's the problem?

That Daredevil's ability is, and has been referred to for years as, his "radar sense". It's that "name-vs-what-it-actually-does" or "name-vs-how-it-actually-works" thing again...

 

So someone thinking of it, from years of reading him in the comics, as a "radar sense" may have some problems with how radar, the HERO system sense power, does or does not interact with someone that's changed his shape via a Shape Shift Touch power.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Regarding Daredevil's radar sense

 

It's actualy sonar...

 

personaly feel that the power should be renamed "Echo location" BTW

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

That Daredevil's ability is, and has been referred to for years as, his "radar sense". It's that "name-vs-what-it-actually-does" or "name-vs-how-it-actually-works" thing again...

 

So someone thinking of it, from years of reading him in the comics, as a "radar sense" may have some problems with how radar, the HERO system sense power, does or does not interact with someone that's changed his shape via a Shape Shift Touch power.

 

And of course it doesn't help that different writers have had his "Radar Sense" work in different ways.

 

Which is why it is easier to talk about specific game mechanics rather than iconic characters, and why I specifically said "Spatial Awareness", rather than just "His Radar Sense".

 

To delve a bit deeper, depending on the specifics of the Spatial Awareness, they may be able to tell that the object isn't a normal mailbox if the Shapeshift is just vs. Touch, even though they'll "see" the shape as a mailbox. And with Radar based senses you'll see the shape as a mailbox, but the return you get will be that of PlasticMan's flesh, rather than metal.