Rules to ignore, or replace

[GMumford]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Actually you'd not change shape at all' date=' you'd change texture. If someone touched you, you would [i']feel[/i] like a giraffe or a tree or a bunch of goo, but still look like you did to begin with. And it would cost a lot to do so.

 

So yeah, vs touch only changes what people can sense with touch and no other senses. Sight changes what people can see, but you'd still feel, taste, smell, sound the same.

 

The power is just poorly designed.

 

So I Shapeshift (with the touch group only) into a chair. A blind man walks up looking for somewhere to sit, bumps into the illusion of me. And just as he starts to rest his weight on the chair, falls to the floor.

 

Very useful.

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Actually you'd not change shape at all' date=' you'd change texture. If someone touched you, you would [i']feel[/i] like a giraffe or a tree or a bunch of goo, but still look like you did to begin with. And it would cost a lot to do so.

 

So yeah, vs touch only changes what people can sense with touch and no other senses. Sight changes what people can see, but you'd still feel, taste, smell, sound the same.

 

The power is just poorly designed.

 

I'd have to dis agree...you shapeshift vs touch and you assume the form of a giraffe, you even feel like a giraffe feels like to touch...but you look like a weirdo who has twisted thier shape into a giraffe...ie: you can fool a blind person, but not someone with sight.

 

Add ind sight and you look like a giraffe, as well as have it's form....

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So I Shapeshift (with the touch group only) into a chair. A blind man walks up looking for somewhere to sit, bumps into the illusion of me. And just as he starts to rest his weight on the chair, falls to the floor.

 

Very useful.

 

It is not an illusion. Thats what images is...to a blind person you are a chair, you feel like a chair in all ways.....but you look like someone twisted into a chair shape.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

That's what Images are for. In 5th Ed' date=' you literally do not have any power for changing your physical conformation, except Multiform. I want a power to change my actual, real, physical form, [u']without[/u] gaining other powers, changing my stats, etc. 5th Ed. doesn't have one. It should.

I feel 5th edition does have such a Power, and that Power is called Shape Shift.

 

RE: Images vs Shape Shift. Images is the Power to make something that isn't there, or isn't real, appear to be so. Shape is the Power to make something that is there (specifically the self), to appear/be different. Shape Shift is a "real" change, rather than a complete falsification of reality. The distinction is in that with Images, anyone may make a PER roll to identify the falsity of their perceptions. With Shape Shift, you cannot.

 

In fairness, Shape Shift is based upon it's actual game/mechanical effect rather than what you are actually doing with it. It's the same reason why the same RKA 2d6 OAF costs the same (and is built the same) even though it could be heavy handgun, or a high-tech from the future laser gun. Sure, one is obviously worth more in the context of the game, but functionally they are the same. Same with Shape Shift. There is no uniform, measurable utility in changing your shape, nor is there really any way of fairly assigning a point value to it. What the actual effect is, assuming your other Powers or abilities remain unchanged, is how you are perceived by onlookers. Thus you are charged so. There is simply no other way of handling it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If I have shapeshift only for touch does that mean I can twist my form into any physical shape but unless someone actually touches me no one could tell. Sounds like what shapeshift should be with +1/2 or more of IPE.

Think of Plasticman or Mr. Fantastic. Each of these characters may have Shape Shift vs Touch Group for any shape. As a result, they can bend and contort their bodies into a variety of necessary shapes to perform a specific task. However, upon perceiving them do this you are not fooled into thinking either of them is not who and what they were a moment before they started contorting inhumanly about. That's why they don't by it vs any other senses besides Touch.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Actually you'd not change shape at all' date=' you'd change texture. If someone touched you, you would [i']feel[/i] like a giraffe or a tree or a bunch of goo, but still look like you did to begin with. And it would cost a lot to do so.

 

So yeah, vs touch only changes what people can sense with touch and no other senses. Sight changes what people can see, but you'd still feel, taste, smell, sound the same.

 

The power is just poorly designed.

 

You are plainly interpreting the rule incorrectly, or are simply misunderstanding it. Interpreting the rule your way, I may as well ask what Power I need by to have my skin turn orange when I want to use my HKA (which I've defined as a "death aura" which turns my skin orange when in use). Or maybe I just have the ability to materialize melee weapons out of thin air. What Power do I buy if I just want to food a blind or sighted man I have a sword without actually stabbing him with it?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

RE: anything other than shapeshift

 

Another rule I rewrite: Missile Deflection cannot be bought by category. It costs 20 points. Period. If you want to have it apply only versus ranged attacks that are thrown, you apply a Limitation.

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I find the rewrites for clairvoyance and shape-shift prohibitively expensive. More bluntly, both are over-priced and building an effective power burns far too many points. This is especially true of clairvoyance. Some common genre shticks are costly in the extreme (i.e., add up the costs for a telepath who experiences all of the sensory input of another character via a mindlink, especially if the mind-linked character isn't "local.") Its ridiculous. In terms of mechanics, I'm not super happy with either, but shape-shift is... "wonky." I don't like it.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

RE: anything other than shapeshift

 

Another rule I rewrite: Missile Deflection cannot be bought by category. It costs 20 points. Period. If you want to have it apply only versus ranged attacks that are thrown, you apply a Limitation.

 

Very similar to a rough idea I have had of changing the catagory to damage type based at least in part on the defense for it (Physical, energy, mental, etc...)

 

I can see being able to deflect bullets but not lasers...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I can see being able to deflect bullets but not lasers...

 

And I can see being able to deflect lasers and not bullets, but don't see why one should be more expensive than the other.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

You're right I was using the unrevised rules which were not very clear on the senses and got the impression that sight changed your shape (what you look like) and touch changed what you feel like (your texture).

 

In any case, the cost is far too high for what you get.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Interesting thought experiment:

 

You are 5 feet tall.

 

You shapeshift into someone 6 feet tall.

 

If someone shoots you in the top 1 foot (i.e. the head, if you see what I mean - an entirely 'shapeshifted bit that was NOT there on the original), does the bullet (which has no senses at all) hit you if:

 

 

1. the shapeshift was touch only

2. the shapeshift was sight only

3. the shapeshift was both

[schir1964]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Interesting thought experiment:

 

You are 5 feet tall.

 

You shapeshift into someone 6 feet tall.

 

If someone shoots you in the top 1 foot (i.e. the head, if you see what I mean - an entirely 'shapeshifted bit that was NOT there on the original), does the bullet (which has no senses at all) hit you if:

 

 

1. the shapeshift was touch only

2. the shapeshift was sight only

3. the shapeshift was both

Based on all the information I've read from Steve Long, the character will only be hit if the Touch group were purchased. Furthermore, since the SFX is a change in actual form (height), you must purchase the Touch Group since the Sight Group alone won't allow you to make people see you as taller.

 

This is one of the clear indicators where SFX was tied to a Mechanic which creates interpretative disconnects.

 

Many Shapeshift SFX are just simply SFX and don't even require the power Shapeshift. It would seem the intended SFX that the power Shapeshift Power was designed to simulate are those SFX that are Disguise based only.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

And I can see being able to deflect lasers and not bullets' date=' but don't see why one should be more expensive than the other. [/quote']

 

Agreed, but what I was suggesting was the idea of still buying it as catagories, but redefining the catagories to make them modular instead of progressive so the catagories might be

 

All physical attacks

All Energy attacks

All mental attacks

All powers based on a broad F/X (as defined by the GM, for things like all Magical Attacks)

 

Each one would cost a certain number of points (My gut says 10, maybe 15 points)

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

No. 5th ed. "shapeshift" changes what others think you are (well, what others perceive). 4th ed. changes WHAT YOU ARE. 5th ed gets to the same point, after you buy a dozen or two senses; because the "Unusual Sense Group" can't be bought together, you have to buy every Detect you can think of, and hope the GM says any others are too similar and you've got them covered. Which is complication for no reason, and way, way too expensive.

 

And "shapeshift to the Touch Sense Group" is not the same thing as really changing your physical conformation.

 

Have you actually read the entry for Shapeshift in 5ER? P216, second column, 3rd paragraph under the "The Touch Group" heading. It starts out "alter his actual physical shape or mass distribution". So yes, one of the things explicitly spelled out in the rules that Shapeshift to the Touch Group can do is really change your physical configuration.

[Mentor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

And I can see being able to deflect lasers and not bullets' date=' but don't see why one should be more expensive than the other. [/quote']

 

Speed of light is higher and thus costs more than a missile travelling at the speed of sound or a couple of multiples of same.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Speed of light is higher and thus costs more than a missile travelling at the speed of sound or a couple of multiples of same.

These are SFX. Functionally, any given Power is identically to any identically purchased Power regardless of SFX. Thinks like how fast it moves really don't matter.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Then by your logic every single attack deflected by missile deflection should cost the same, because they're all just different special effects. I like the different levels, they allow missile deflection to easier fit different genres. Sure, you can bat aside thrown spears but what about a bullet?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Then by your logic every single attack deflected by missile deflection should cost the same' date=' because they're all just different special effects. I like the different levels, they allow missile deflection to easier fit different genres. Sure, you can bat aside thrown spears but what about a bullet?[/quote']

 

If bullets are harder to deflect, they should cost more. Except they don't. A thrown spear, an arrow, a bullet and a laser are all a plain ol' RKA 1d6. Since they all cost the same, it should cost the same to defend against them. Or should you also have to pay extra for your Armor if it defends against thrown spears and bullets instead of just thrown spears?

 

Genre shouldn't cost extra. Flavor shouldn't cost extra. SFX shouldn't cost extra.

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Interesting thought experiment:

 

You are 5 feet tall.

 

You shapeshift into someone 6 feet tall.

 

If someone shoots you in the top 1 foot (i.e. the head, if you see what I mean - an entirely 'shapeshifted bit that was NOT there on the original), does the bullet (which has no senses at all) hit you if:

 

 

1. the shapeshift was touch only

2. the shapeshift was sight only

3. the shapeshift was both

 

Hmmm....1 and 3 yes...technicaly 2 is no....

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If bullets are harder to deflect' date=' they should cost more. Except they don't. A thrown spear, an arrow, a bullet and a laser are all a plain ol' RKA 1d6. Since they all cost the same, it should cost the same to defend against them. Or should you also have to pay extra for your Armor if it defends against thrown spears [i']and[/i] bullets instead of just thrown spears?

 

Genre shouldn't cost extra. Flavor shouldn't cost extra. SFX shouldn't cost extra.

 

Well said, however I would say as part of the write up you would include the limitations for bullets/thrown objects, etc...

 

I do think that catagories are needed, but I think based on defense, with an additional catagory involving F/X (For all magic, or mutant power, etc...)

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Have you actually read the entry for Shapeshift in 5ER? P216' date=' second column, 3rd paragraph under the "The Touch Group" heading. It starts out "alter his actual physical shape or mass distribution". So yes, one of the things explicitly spelled out in the rules that Shapeshift to the Touch Group can do is really change your physical configuration.[/quote']

 

What I find amusing about it is that I can alter my physical shape and mass distribution, but if I don't also buy the sight group no one notices unless they grope me.

[schir1964]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

What I find amusing about it is that I can alter my physical shape and mass distribution' date=' but if I don't also buy the sight group no one notices unless they grope me. [/quote']

Based on everything I've read and responses from Steve Long. This is not the actual result of just having Touch Shapeshift.

 

Once again, the intended purpose of Touch Shapeshift is to allow a change in form or mass distribution, which includes textures, thus the the Touch Sense portion of it.

 

However, any change in form, whether it be Growth, Shrinking, Stretching, or Just Touch Shapeshift is perceivable by any/all appropriate normal senses.

 

Someone who has used Touch Shapeshift to change into a "Tree" form, would be shaped like a Tree and would been seen this way, but in no way would someone looking at such be tricked in to thinking it is a tree and not the character.

 

So people would notice that you have somehow twisted yourself into the shape of tree, but they would still recognize you as yourself due to coloring, facial features, and so forth.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Based on everything I've read and responses from Steve Long. This is not the actual result of just having Touch Shapeshift.

 

Once again, the intended purpose of Touch Shapeshift is to allow a change in form or mass distribution, which includes textures, thus the the Touch Sense portion of it.

 

However, any change in form, whether it be Growth, Shrinking, Stretching, or Just Touch Shapeshift is perceivable by any/all appropriate normal senses.

 

Someone who has used Touch Shapeshift to change into a "Tree" form, would be shaped like a Tree and would been seen this way, but in no way would someone looking at such be tricked in to thinking it is a tree and not the character.

 

So people would notice that you have somehow twisted yourself into the shape of tree, but they would still recognize you as yourself due to coloring, facial features, and so forth.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thank you for the lecture. I am aware of how the power works. It is broken as the day is long. Kludge rulings may work around it, but they don't fix it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Speed of light is higher and thus costs more than a missile travelling at the speed of sound or a couple of multiples of same.

 

Not in Hero

 

It is FAR cheaper to travel at the speed of light than at the speed of sound.