Rules to ignore, or replace

[Sean Waters]

I was looking at the description for Invisibility, and read that it is a 'partial exception to the general rule about....being perceived by sense groups'.

 

Never even crosssed my mind that Invisibility, when it is running, is still perceiveable by 3 sense groups (unless you have made yourself invisible to so many sense groups that there are not 3 left!)

 

So, if you are invisible to sight, that's cool, but the invisibility will be somewhat limited by the constant buzzing noise you make, the odd smell that emanates from you, and the modulated pulses you are emitting on radio frequencies.

 

In effect you need to buy IPE almost every time you buy invisibility.

 

That's one rule I'll be ignoring. I will cross out the word 'partial' and the end of the sentence. Invisibility is now an exception to the rule about END using powers being perceiveable.

 

Do you agree? Do you have any examples of your own?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Ditto 'shapeshift', while we are at it....

[Vondy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I've never used the "endurance using powers are perceivable" rule. Instead, I've always adjudicated the matter based on what makes sense in light of the special effects.

[Cygnia]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I'm going to be encouraging my GM to use the old 4th Ed. rules of Instant Change rather than this weird Transform they've got now.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I have yet to allow it, but my players have asked to me to waive the rule disallowing power frameworks to be linked to a power outside the framework (such as a Growth Powers framework linked to Growth). I also frequently get asked to waive the rule requiring powers in Elemental Controls to cost END.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I do not let characters buy up the maximum they can achieve with an Aid. If they want a 30 point effect, they have to buy at least 5d6 to get it. Being able to buy up the maximum just lends itself to abuse IMO.

 

I am also pretty forgiving about what I will allow in power frameworks, provided it makes sense and doesn't seem abusive. I guess that really falls under GM approval, so it is not outside the rules, but it might not make it into officially sanctioned material.

 

___________________________________________________________

So don't smile so wide for that lens

The cross-hairs are not your friends

*click click*

- The Beauty Pill

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I've always seen the "rules" as guidelines, so I read "partial exception" and see...."You are invisable, but it's "partial" because you have a "Fringe" (that you can buy off....) and you Can be perceived by nontargeting senses...two things that make you "Semi-perceivable" (and thus "partialally exempted...)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I've always seen the "rules" as guidelines' date=' so I read "partial exception" and see...."You are invisable, but it's "partial" because you have a "Fringe" (that you can buy off....) and you Can be perceived by nontargeting senses...two things that make you "Semi-perceivable" (and thus "partialally exempted...)[/quote']

 

According to the rules, even if you buy off 'fringe' you are still humming and ...well, humming. The rules ARE guidelines but we shouldn;t have to be constantly amending them. they should work 97.876 (yes, I can be that accurate)% of the time.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

According to the rules' date=' even if you buy off 'fringe' you are still humming and ...well, humming. [/quote']

 

For our US cousins I think that I should point out that in the UK, humming can be interpreted as being smelly....

 

 

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Do you agree? Do you have any examples of your own?

I agree. Invisible is Invisible. Being less visible shouldn't make you noisy, and being less noisy shouldn't make you more visible.

[Loxly]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I was looking at the description for Invisibility, and read that it is a 'partial exception to the general rule about....being perceived by sense groups'.

 

Never even crosssed my mind that Invisibility, when it is running, is still perceiveable by 3 sense groups (unless you have made yourself invisible to so many sense groups that there are not 3 left!)

 

So, if you are invisible to sight, that's cool, but the invisibility will be somewhat limited by the constant buzzing noise you make, the odd smell that emanates from you, and the modulated pulses you are emitting on radio frequencies.

 

Well, personally, I think you are over analyzing Invisibilities "visibility."

 

Sonar or you stubbing you toe and going "Ow" will make you hearable.

 

Radar will reflect of you and you talking on your com-unit can still be "picked-up."

 

And someone or something will know you are there with their heightened sense of smell.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well, personally, I think you are over analyzing Invisibilities "visibility."

 

Sonar or you stubbing you toe and going "Ow" will make you hearable.

 

Radar will reflect of you and you talking on your com-unit can still be "picked-up."

 

And someone or something will know you are there with their heightened sense of smell.

 

I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down.

 

Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem

[Dr.Device]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Rules to Ignore:

• As in the thread starter the visibility rules for Invisibility and Shape shift. As a matter of fact, I'm considering redoing the visibility rules overall.
  
• Adjustment powers fade five points per application per time period. NIMG. In my game, they fade at five points per adjustment power per time period, like they always did before.
  
• Affects Desolid. In my games, if you want something to affect desolidified characters, you buy it with the appropriate special effect.
  
• Change Environemnt can't provide bonuses. Yes it can, with GM's (i.e., my) approval.
  
• EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass?
  

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

For our US cousins I think that I should point out that in the UK, humming can be interpreted as being smelly....

 

 

 

Doc

 

 

Thank you for being my cultural interpreter

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down.

 

Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem

 

Sorry I just don't agree...it's "partially exempt" so it does not require 3 senses...it can however be overcome in ways that make you semi perceivable...like rain or paint...etc....

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Rules to Ignore:

• As in the thread starter the visibility rules for Invisibility and Shape shift. As a matter of fact, I'm considering redoing the visibility rules overall.
  
• Adjustment powers fade five points per application per time period. NIMG. In my game, they fade at five points per adjustment power per time period, like they always did before.
  
• Affects Desolid. In my games, if you want something to affect desolidified characters, you buy it with the appropriate special effect.
  
• Change Environemnt can't provide bonuses. Yes it can, with GM's (i.e., my) approval.
  
• EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass?
  

 

* Variable limitation interaction with Foci: F/X is king...

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I'd drop gliding, it is just flight with limitations. It's like having water walking as a power, pointless duplication and specialization.

 

I'd change the rules of attacks from surprise to do half CON rather than double stun.

 

I'd change the block rules to be a roll against the DCV the attack hit rather than their OCV. A great attack roll makes it harder to block.

 

Off the top of my head.

[Loxly]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down.

 

Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem

 

I still think you are over analyzing it.

 

Take a Revolver. Still "Costs END" even though it may have charges, so it has to be "visable."

 

Hearing: The BANG! of the powder igniting and the bullet going super-sonic.

 

Sight: The muzzle flash and powder ignition ... But it's hard to see in a well lit area unless you happen to be looking at it.

 

Smell: The smell of burnt gun powder ... but it's hard to smell unless you are close anddown wind or have heightened smell. It can also be overpowered by other smells, like a sewer.

 

Perceivable, but to differant extents.

 

I don't think when it says a power must be "percievable" it means "blatantly perceivable." I don't have my book with me, so I can't check the exact wording.

 

And as an aside: Shapeshift.

 

Just because you can make yourself look like a tree, doesn't mean you would feel like one when touched, or sound like one when struck.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass?

 

Nothing! In fact, that's a great way to make an "ofuda" style spirit ward!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I still think you are over analyzing it.

 

Take a Revolver. Still "Costs END" even though it may have charges, so it has to be "visable."

 

Hearing: The BANG! of the powder igniting and the bullet going super-sonic.

 

Sight: The muzzle flash and powder ignition ... But it's hard to see in a well lit area unless you happen to be looking at it.

 

Smell: The smell of burnt gun powder ... but it's hard to smell unless you are close anddown wind or have heightened smell. It can also be overpowered by other smells, like a sewer.

 

Perceivable, but to differant extents.

 

I don't think when it says a power must be "percievable" it means "blatantly perceivable." I don't have my book with me, so I can't check the exact wording.

 

And as an aside: Shapeshift.

 

Just because you can make yourself look like a tree, doesn't mean you would feel like one when touched, or sound like one when struck.

 

Over analysing is one of the politer things I get accused of

 

Nonetheless, taking your gun example, it si very obvious that a gun is being fired, unless there is so much extranous 'noise' that it cannot be perceived. It has to be equally obvious for any power with visible sfx. You can't define a gun's visible sfx as the target feeling the impact, seeing the blood and hearing themselves scream...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

While we're talking about that perceivable power rule and things we ignore... that's one of 'em.

 

All Attack Powers must be perceivable by normal individuals as being used, and it must be apparent who used it and on whom. This is not absolute, as anyone simply not paying attention may not notice each of these, and a clever person may use an Attack Power in a way in which it is concealed by the environment (by using cover, distractions, etc.). An Attack Power may take Noisy, a -1/4 Limitation in which case is it virtually impossible to conceal the use of it.

 

Note I make no mention of required Sense Groups or such. It doesn't really matter as long as the above is accomplished. I also don't care about non Attack Powers. I don't care if your Flight is glowy, hums and smells funny and your Gliding isn't. I also consider anything that involves an OCV roll versus a target to be an Attack Power, such as Missile Deflection. Other Powers, in general, should be noticeable, but I'm not as strict as I am with Attack Powers. And of course Powers that shouldn't be noticeable by definition (Invisibility) just aren't noticeable.

[jtelson]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I'd drop gliding' date=' it is just flight with limitations. It's like having water walking as a power, pointless duplication and specialization.[/quote']

 

 

Swinging could get the axe as well, for the same reasons.

 

I actually almost always buy my swinging as flight with a very minor to no limitation for it requiring a swing line. How else can I accomplish all those physics defying stunts?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

And swimming. Drop swimming too. It's just Flight "Only In Liquids" anyway.

 

And Teleport... as that's just Flight "Does Not Cross Interviening Space".

 

And gotta toss out Running: Flight "Only On A Surface"

 

While we're at it, get rid of FTL... Flight "Goes Really Really Fast"

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I'd change the rules of attacks from surprise to do half CON rather than double stun.

 

Ur? I've no idea what you're talking about.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Ur? I've no idea what you're talking about.

 

I think he might mean that any stun from a suprise attack that gets past defenses be compared to 1/2 of a target's normal CON for purposes of determining if they are stunned.

 

I think it's an interesting idea. Would go a long way towards eliminating the perception by many on this board that it's often easier to knockout HERO character's than it is to stun them.