Rules to ignore, or replace

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

The most obvious would be when an attack with Indirect is used against a character behind a Force Wall. Indirect lets it bypass the Force Wall completely. However. if the Force Wall has Hardened the attack has to get past the Force Wall as normal.

 

The problem is that a 'wall' (force or otherwise) that does not completely englobe a character, can be 'bypassed' by an indirect atatck that (for instance) is a grenade that can be fired in a parabola, over the wall.

 

You harden the wall and suddenly the grenade can not be thrown over it.

 

That makes little sense.

 

I do appreciate that for some combinations of indirect and hardened perfect sense is made, just not that one.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

As for the couch, I don't think Stretching is what I have in mind at all. (Maybe it is and I just haven't read the power description recently enough). I am not saying I want to reach further than my arm would normally go, but rather under a gap that is too small for my arm to fit under. I want to use Shapeshift to flatten my arm so it will fit. Maybe a better example would be I want my shapeshifter to operate an alien device that requires a hand shaped like a bunch of bananas. The device doesn't care what my hand looks like as long as it is the right shape. Surely that isn't Stretching is it?

 

Nope, that would be Shapeshift. 5ER p216 specifically lists fitting into openings that a human shaped being cannot normally fit into as something that Shapeshift vs Touch can do. Vs Touch is what lets you make actual changes to the physical shape of your body.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Of course, in MY ideal word (i.e. Hell) stretching would be a movement power, and you would be expected to buy some stretching whenever you buy shapeshift*.

 

You can stretch both arms 10" FORWARD if you have bought 10" stretching, but you can not then stretch one 10" forward and one 10" backwards. Game balance = madness.

 

I'd have specifically gotten around this problem by including in the rules a fopr stretching a limtiation that allowed you to buy extra stretching to stretch in two directions at once. -1 springs to mind.

 

 

*In fact in my ideal world, shapeshift would be an adder to Images (+20: Perfect) and all actual deformations of the body would be done with stretching, with an adder for fitting through small gaps (+5 you can fit through a gap half as wide as normal, each +5 half again)

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If you make a Power that causes an actual physical change in the character' date=' then you eliminate other possible SFX, such as illusion, hologram, glamour, etc.[/quote']

 

That's what Images are for. In 5th Ed, you literally do not have any power for changing your physical conformation, except Multiform. I want a power to change my actual, real, physical form, without gaining other powers, changing my stats, etc. 5th Ed. doesn't have one. It should.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

...I want a power to change my actual' date=' real, physical form, [u']without[/u] gaining other powers, changing my stats, etc. 5th Ed. doesn't have one. It should.

 

That is precisely what the 5th ed. power Shapeshift covers. No more, no less. It just happens to have a clearly defined defense spelled out which 4th ed. did not.

 

"my actual, real, physical form" is just a special effect. Its game mechanics are no different than a perfect personal hologram/forcefield projector.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

That's what Images are for. In 5th Ed' date=' you literally do not have any power for changing your physical conformation, except Multiform. I want a power to change my actual, real, physical form, [u']without[/u] gaining other powers, changing my stats, etc. 5th Ed. doesn't have one. It should.

 

Sure it does. Shapeshift. Specifically Shapeshift vs Touch. Changing your actual, real, physical form is one of the things it explicitly does.

 

Edit: Jinx!

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

My own personal issue is why have Shapeshift and Images when the construct is so similar? Why not just dump Shapeshift and use Images only vs. Self?

 

No reason at all. If they're going to insist on a "Shapeshift" that doesn't, then get rid of it.

 

And lots of us have, putting back in REAL Shapeshift.

 

 

My own knee-jerk response is that since Shapeshift actually alters your form' date=' you could use it to say, reach under the couch to retrieve your loose coins that your arm would have otherwise been too large to fit under. [i']But only if you bought Shapeshift vs. touch because the couch isn't going to be fooled by a sight-only Shapeshift.[/i] Clearly this is silly,

 

Shapeshift into a gibbon. OK, you weigh too much, a giant gibbon. Longer arm for the thickness. There's your money back.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I find it amazing how often the core reason from effect idea of HERO is conveniently ignored.

[Kenn]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Hmm. If I understand this, I think the problem stems that if I appear to be, I don't know, a llama, but if I still feel like a human computer programmer who needs to lose some weight, that ability sounds more like putting up an image, rather than shifting one's shape.

 

Which means I should buy the Images game mechanic.

 

If I can change my appearance so that I appear to look like a llama, and if people touch me, I feel like a llama, that seems more like I've changed my shape.

 

Which means I should buy the Shapeshift power.

 

I think if the Touch Sense-group was inherently a part of shapeshift, as oppossed to a specific condition the player has to purchase, it would remove much of the debate.

 

At present, the differences between Images, self-only, and Shapeshift are minmal. The main one being the ability to see through an image.

 

I do think Shapeshift is to expensive for the effects it provides. Or more to the point, it costs too much to make the ability function at the base level people would expect it to perform at.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I agree with the concerns about shapeshift, I don't much care for the present design. It seems to me that touch would control shape and texture, while sight would control color and pattern, and I'm not very happy with the cost for utility in any case. Looking exactly like a settee or a giraffe isn't worth 50 points to me. So I agree with Kenn: too much for what it does and for what people would expect.

 

I prefer the number/complexity of changes design over senses, Mr Long did carry that concept a bit too far with Shapeshift.

 

Regarding stun: what happens when you're hit by surprise is not so much increased impact but - if it hurts, it's more likely to stun you. So half CON makes that more likely, but if you're really tough it doesn't matter. Think of it: if you're in a tank and someone hits the tank by surprise with a baseball bat.... you don't notice, except to jump in surprise. The stun isn't doubled, the pain of surprise is increased.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Which of the following is the more valuable ability?

 

50 Full Invsibility (Physical Senses): Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups , No Fringe - END=5

 

52 Full Shape Shift (Physical Senses): Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups, limited group of shapes), Imitation, Instant Change, Makeover - END=5

 

43 Full Self Only Images (Physical Senses): Sight, Hearing, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups Images 1" radius, +/-10 to PER Rolls, Alterable Size (65 Active Points); No Range (Effectively Self Only; -1/2) - END=6

 

 

The Images build is essentially either invisibility or shape shift with something like a requires a skill roll with skill vs. skill (opponent's PER roll). I see all 3 as possible best solutions to specific sfx how to questions.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Don't forget Cellular, imitation and instant change. The cost goes over 70 with everything.

[Netzilla]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Mine is the Optional Speed Change rules (pg 357), where if you're boosted from SPD 1 to anything less than 7, you can't move again until the boost wears off (same thing in the other direction for Drain/Suppress). Basically, with the lower base Speed scores, it actually makes you slower to be have your speed boosted (SPD 2 to 3 can't act again until Segment 12, thus giving you only 1 action that turn; same with 3 to 4).

 

My way of handling it is to allow you next act on the first phase of the new speed that comes after what would have been your next action at the old speed. So, if you're boosted from SPD 3 (4, 8, 12) to SPD 5 (3, 6, 8, 10, 12) on Segment 1, you're next action will be on Segment 6 (rather than 8 as suggested by the example on 357 and this thread).

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I find it amazing how often the core reason from effect idea of HERO is conveniently ignored.

 

Reason from effect is a good (not necessarily always best) way to use the tools in the "toolbox".

 

It's not a good way to design the tools. Especially when (as with 5th ed. self-so-called "Shapeshift") it violates the great rule of game design. Make it clear what the power is for and how to use it.

 

Or, "KISS"

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Mine is the Optional Speed Change rules (pg 357), where if you're boosted from SPD 1 to anything less than 7, you can't move again until the boost wears off (same thing in the other direction for Drain/Suppress). Basically, with the lower base Speed scores, it actually makes you slower to be have your speed boosted (SPD 2 to 3 can't act again until Segment 12, thus giving you only 1 action that turn; same with 3 to 4).

 

My way of handling it is to allow you next act on the first phase of the new speed that comes after what would have been your next action at the old speed. So, if you're boosted from SPD 3 (4, 8, 12) to SPD 5 (3, 6, 8, 10, 12) on Segment 1, you're next action will be on Segment 6 (rather than 8 as suggested by the example on 357 and this thread).

 

That's how it was done in 4th ed. I forgot about that; yeah, 5th ed. flupped up on that.

 

BTW, SPD 5 has phases on 3, 5, 8, 10, & 12.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Reason from effect is a good (not necessarily always best) way to use the tools in the "toolbox".

 

It's not a good way to design the tools. Especially when (as with 5th ed. self-so-called "Shapeshift") it violates the great rule of game design. Make it clear what the power is for and how to use it.

 

Or, "KISS"

 

Seems pretty clear to me. Shapeshift allows you to do exactly what it says, shift your shape. Buying it vs. the Touch group actually physically changes your shape. You can also change your perceived shape to other senses by buying it vs. those senses. What is unclear about it?

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Buying it vs. the Touch group actually physically changes your shape.

 

Except it doesn't. In the present rules, sight controls your shape, touch controls your texture. It's really not very well built, and far too costly for what it achieves.

[Dawn Darke]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Seems pretty clear to me. Shapeshift allows you to do exactly what it says' date=' shift your shape. Buying it vs. the Touch group actually physically changes your shape. You can also change your perceived shape to other senses by buying it vs. those senses. What is unclear about it?[/quote']

 

No. 5th ed. "shapeshift" changes what others think you are (well, what others perceive). 4th ed. changes WHAT YOU ARE. 5th ed gets to the same point, after you buy a dozen or two senses; because the "Unusual Sense Group" can't be bought together, you have to buy every Detect you can think of, and hope the GM says any others are too similar and you've got them covered. Which is complication for no reason, and way, way too expensive.

 

And "shapeshift to the Touch Sense Group" is not the same thing as really changing your physical conformation.

[GMumford]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If I have shapeshift only for touch does that mean I can twist my form into any physical shape but unless someone actually touches me no one could tell. Sounds like what shapeshift should be with +1/2 or more of IPE.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I run that similar to plastic Man, basicaly unless ou are dummy you will not be fooled by what he has turned into, he turns into a chair, he looks like a shapeshifter who has turned into a chair, you can sit on him, and he might be comfortable as a chair, but you can tell it;s someone turned into a chair

[Vanguard]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I think he might mean that any stun from a suprise attack that gets past defenses be compared to 1/2 of a target's normal CON for purposes of determining if they are stunned.

 

I think it's an interesting idea. Would go a long way towards eliminating the perception by many on this board that it's often easier to knockout HERO character's than it is to stun them.

 

Actually, I think they mean it's easier to knock out a Superheroic character then it is to Stun one.

 

In our Avant Garde super-hero game, the PC's were knocked out 9/10 before they were stunned. And the hardly ever took body.

 

In our GateCrasher/Dragonstar Heroic level games, our characters get Stunned almost as much as they get knocked out.

 

When thinking about Stunning/Killing, I believe it's all in the Genre type that the players/GM are playing in.

 

PS: Sorry for the thread derail.

[Vanguard]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Seems pretty clear to me. Shapeshift allows you to do exactly what it says' date=' shift your shape. Buying it vs. the Touch group actually physically changes your shape. You can also change your perceived shape to other senses by buying it vs. those senses. What is unclear about it?[/quote']

 

I haven't look in depth at Shapeshift but I thought that Vs Touch just let you "feel" like the shape your shifting into.

 

So, say you have Shapeshift vs Sight/Touch and you shift into a tree. Well, you now look at feel like a tree. If you had just gone with Vs Sight, you would look like the tree but still feel like your base form.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I haven't look in depth at Shapeshift but I thought that Vs Touch just let you "feel" like the shape your shifting into.

 

So, say you have Shapeshift vs Sight/Touch and you shift into a tree. Well, you now look at feel like a tree. If you had just gone with Vs Sight, you would look like the tree but still feel like your base form.

 

You would not feel like a tree, wether or not you ould feel human is a matter for F/X

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

If I have shapeshift only for touch does that mean I can twist my form into any physical shape but unless someone actually touches me no one could tell. Sounds like what shapeshift should be with +1/2 or more of IPE.

 

Actually you'd not change shape at all, you'd change texture. If someone touched you, you would feel like a giraffe or a tree or a bunch of goo, but still look like you did to begin with. And it would cost a lot to do so.

 

So yeah, vs touch only changes what people can sense with touch and no other senses. Sight changes what people can see, but you'd still feel, taste, smell, sound the same.

 

The power is just poorly designed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Shapeshift is about changing your physical conformation.

 

That statement makes about as much sense as:

 

"Energy Blast is about doing energy damage to whatever you fire it at."

 

At their heart, both are just special effects based arguments.

 

Powers in HERO represent effects*, NOT special effects.

 

*effects = mechanics.

 

What other or "better" mechanical definition could be used to replace the current sensory based shape shift rules?

4th edition's definition basically boils down to a sfx definition.