Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

[Tornado]

It's a strange question that I've been pondering. Typical fantasy settings tend to avoid actual medieval european-like... everything. There's occasionally a parallel to the Catholic Church, and sure there's a feudal system (though this is true for plenty of other places) with the divine right of kings/queen, and the terrain is vaguely similar, but religions are almost always polytheistic, magic is not based upon the medieval european conceptions at all (it tends to be elemental rather than the divine/demonic dichotomy), gender bias is much more modern, and the most important races (elves, dwarves, et cetera) have almost nothing to do with mythology at all (though they do often have quite a bit to do with european racism).

 

So how is the "typical fantasy setting" actually like medieval europe? I ask this not as an inquiry of how it can be more like medieval europe, but rather of one of how it is like medieval europe, a purely intellectual question.

 

If any of my aforementioned ideas about medieval europe/typical fantasy setting are wrong, please tell me that too.

[Curufea]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Well - the society is usually agrarian and feudal (ish) with hereditary monarchies. That's all I can think of.

[input.jack]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Well, I dont know where you get the "racism" idea, but basically, the "typical" FRP setting intersects with medieval Europe in architecture, and in about 50-75% of its clothing. (Maybe less if hte GM is into "Dungeon-punk" styles).

 

Other than that, theres a nod to feudalism and to having Knights, and thats about it. (In my experience)

 

Not that this is a bad thing; actual historical Europe was a VERY unpleasant place to live unless you were a Noble. And in a world with multiple sentient Races, hostile monsters, and viable whoosh-boom magic, having the world resemble historical Europe too much would be totally unbelievable, and extremely frustrating to play in.

 

Trust me; I got suckered into a couple games of "Chivalry and Sorcery" back in the mid 80s.

[Markdoc]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Trust me; I got suckered into a couple games of "Chivalry and Sorcery" back in the mid 80s.

 

Like anything, depends on the GM and players. We played in some "realistic" Chivalry and Sorcery games set in historical periods - a short series of mystery-solving adventures as monks in 1500's Spain, inspired by "the Name of the Rose" and a longer campaign set during and immediately after the first crusade where we were a bunch of land-hungry and/or pious knights aiming to christianise the holy land. Both games were absolute blasts and remain among my fondest roleplaying memories.

 

I also played a "fantasy England" game of Chivalry and Sorcery set in Wales. That obviously departed more from historical simulation, being as what it involved our characters in the Goblin Wars, but if you swapped out "Goblins" with "Welsh" it would not have played very differently

 

We've also - using Hero system - played a Dark Ages England game set in Mercia during the Saxon invasions, which was relatively "true to life".

 

So it can be - and occasionally is - done, but in general, fantasy roleplaying deals with medieval realities barely at all. As noted, you typically have knights (but not real feudalism), Castles (but not really resembling real castles in either design, placement or function) and agrarian societies (but not usually resembling real ones very much).

 

Fair enough - they're fantasy worlds. What irks me a little more is how often GMs (or writers) don't even try to make their own worlds internally consistent.

 

cheers, Mark

[Diamond Spear]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

On average, about 3%.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Considering that the actual medieval Europe didn't have feudalism, the Catholic Church, or the divine right of kings (at least in the form that they are assumed here), I'd say quite a lot. "Medieval Europe" is a seventeenth/eighteenth century fantasy, and the default fantasy setting is a 20th century reinterpretation.

[krayzdave]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Well, I dont know where you get the "racism" idea, but basically, the "typical" FRP setting intersects with medieval Europe in architecture, and in about 50-75% of its clothing. (Maybe less if hte GM is into "Dungeon-punk" styles).

 

Other than that, theres a nod to feudalism and to having Knights, and thats about it. (In my experience)

 

Not that this is a bad thing; actual historical Europe was a VERY unpleasant place to live unless you were a Noble. And in a world with multiple sentient Races, hostile monsters, and viable whoosh-boom magic, having the world resemble historical Europe too much would be totally unbelievable, and extremely frustrating to play in.

 

Trust me; I got suckered into a couple games of "Chivalry and Sorcery" back in the mid 80s.

 

The racism bit would likely be the Jews and Gypsies and other small, "factioness" racial groups that floated around the time period. The catholic church alongside the italian and french governments were all extremely prejudice towards the Jews.

[Tornado]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

The racism bit would likely be the Jews and Gypsies and other small' date=' "factioness" racial groups that floated around the time period. The catholic church alongside the italian and french governments were all extremely prejudice towards the Jews.[/quote']

 

Well, there's also the dwarves who tend to align quite well with scottish stereotypes (even including the accent in some cases). Plus, arguably, the orcs (stereotypical "savages" in most fantasy settings).

[Korvar]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Considering that the actual medieval Europe didn't have feudalism' date=' the Catholic Church, or the divine right of kings (at least in the form that they are assumed here), I'd say quite a lot. "Medieval Europe" is a seventeenth/eighteenth century fantasy, and the default fantasy setting is a 20th century reinterpretation.[/quote']

 

I am intrigued and would be interested in more information.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Oops, having trolled, I have nothing really sexy to add. The question of what medieval Europe was "really" like is, I'm sorry to say, a lot more boring than the fantasy.

If you want to know more about the invention of the concept of feudalism, I recommend Susan Reynolds, Fiefs and Vassals (1994, I think), but it is not an easy read. I don't have a finger on anything fresh and new on the history of medieval religion, but Delumeau, History of Christianity got me through comprehensives.

On "divine right of kings," see the revelatory discussion of the actual origins of this debate in the period between 1570 and 1640 included in Hajo Holborn's Jesuit Political Thought. Unfortunately, the line of thinking here is not exactly direct, so I am going to blather on in an attemptd summary.

Catholic and Protestant thinkers were both forced to explain why Protestants should accept Catholic kings and not vice versa, or vice versa. Both confessions wanted to rule out tyrannicide, since there were too many freelance assassins of their respective faith running around. Catholics wanted to assert the authority of the Pope without being caught saying that the Pope had the power to depose kings, while Protestants wanted to say that there was no need for a "supreme arbiter" of disputed matters (that is, the Pope), and that you could therefore assert the rights of a James I or Henri IV by an appeal to a transcendent source of royal power. So in a classic case of "that's not what I'm saying," both sides ended up asserting that there was no such thing as a divine right of kings, or absolute monarchy, while adding that their enemies said that there was, and there, kind of, but only different, actually was.

You can see why Hobbes was such a breath of fresh air.

[Vondy]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Almost none.

 

Most fantasy settings have a modern zeitgeist with medieval window dressing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

Almost none.

 

Most fantasy settings have a modern zeitgeist with medieval window dressing.

 

And that's a good thing.

[Vondy]

Re: How much of "typical fantasy setting" actually intersects with "medieval europe"?

 

And that's a good thing.

 

It depends on what kind of fantasy you're looking for.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

Anything that seems "cool" after heavy romanticization is fair game for inclusion in an RPG Fantasy setting, when it is convenient and / or beneficial to player's characters.

 

That's about it really.

[input.jack]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

Id -still- much rather live an a world like that of most fantasy games Ive been in than in the real, historical Middle Ages. (Especially the games run by some of my friends who are actually very good GMs, and put some thought into how things worked...)

[Curufea]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

I dunno - modern farming life has quite a bit in common with historical medieval life. It wouldn't be too much of a hardship. Less free time of course - but more social activities (compared to the playtime we have these days which is not very social at all).

[Vondy]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

Id -still- much rather live an a world like that of most fantasy games Ive been in than in the real' date=' historical Middle Ages. (Especially the games run by some of my friends who are actually very good GMs, and put some thought into how things worked...) [/quote']

 

Well, sure, less ticks, mud, and plague coupled with more affluence and a mindset we can relate to. Still, sometimes I like gaming in a fairly realistic historical setting.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

You know, this makes for a simple, clean solution to my earlier question of "why hasn't magic changed my world?".

 

It HAS . . . it's made my world look like what we're describing here, rather than the hell-hole that was real history.

 

It's easy to take our modern technology for granted, and forget how much of a difference it really makes.

[Curufea]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

You know, this makes for a simple, clean solution to my earlier question of "why hasn't magic changed my world?".

 

It HAS . . . it's made my world look like what we're describing here, rather than the hell-hole that was real history.

 

It's easy to take our modern technology for granted, and forget how much of a difference it really makes.

 

That's a stereotype - real medieval times were not hell-holes. History shows hell-holes because hell-holes are worth writing about.

 

You may as well regard modern life as what you read in tabloids.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

You know, this makes for a simple, clean solution to my earlier question of "why hasn't magic changed my world?".

 

It HAS . . . it's made my world look like what we're describing here, rather than the hell-hole that was real history.

 

It's easy to take our modern technology for granted, and forget how much of a difference it really makes.

 

Precisely.

[Vondy]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

You know, this makes for a simple, clean solution to my earlier question of "why hasn't magic changed my world?".

 

It HAS . . . it's made my world look like what we're describing here, rather than the hell-hole that was real history.

 

It's easy to take our modern technology for granted, and forget how much of a difference it really makes.

 

The most important spells in the world are not flashy:

 

1) heat water

2) purify water

3) fertilize field

4) fortify crop

5) antiseptic/disinfect

6) antibody

7) birth control

8) delouse

9) pest ward

10) numb pain

 

Right there - you've changed the world in a more powerful way than power word kill, chain lightning, fireball, or meteor swarm ever will.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

The most important spells in the world are not flashy:

 

1) heat water

2) purify water

3) fertilize field

4) fortify crop

5) antiseptic/disinfect

6) antibody

7) birth control

8) delouse

9) pest ward

10) numb pain

 

Right there - you've changed the world in a more powerful way than power word kill, chain lightning, fireball, or meteor swarm ever will.

 

Again, precisely.

[gewing]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

The most important spells in the world are not flashy:

 

1) heat water

2) purify water

3) fertilize field

4) fortify crop

5) antiseptic/disinfect

6) antibody

7) birth control

8) delouse

9) pest ward

10) numb pain

 

Right there - you've changed the world in a more powerful way than power word kill, chain lightning, fireball, or meteor swarm ever will.

 

 

damn straight!!!

 

the classic HEAL is just a combination. Add a Bring rain, and a Hold off rain, and the world of most of the population of the world would have been much closer to paradise.

 

Heck if most of those were simple cantrips, and the weather spells were ones that a community could easily manage, they would STILL improve the lives of the majority of the world's population IMHO.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Fact vs Fiction - Medieval Europe vs Typical Fantasy Settings

 

I'd sub in 7) "mend" for "birth control," which medieval people handled for themselves the old-fashioned way. Otherwise, though....