Mook rules?

[nytflyr]

Ive been contemplating some Mook rules for Pulp Hero, I mean seriously all it takes is a good shot and you have a dead hero, so here is my thought... mooks do no body damage to a hero, no matter what weaponry they are using. This is not to say that a hero cant be beaten down...

 

any opinions on this?

 

(Note, this is assuming there arent some already in place that I havent seen)

[Barton]

Re: Mook rules?

 

I do not like it; but as my friend Joe L. says my pulp games are "history with a veneer of pulp". So I a realism guy. So to make it fun I give the good guys and major villains combat luck and it works. Mooks never get armor or combat luck so they drop fast, while the good guy need to worry about shots, but no one shot will take them out. Also HAP (hero action points) can be used in my game to reduce wounds.

[Prometheus]

Re: Mook rules?

 

At the heroic level for Pulp Hero I'm a big fan of Combat Luck and Normals with 8s. With SPDs of 2 and CVs of 3 or 4, the heroes should be able to put a few down before numbers catch up with them and someone gets a lucky roll.

 

Mooks should mostly be padding for the Master Villain (and his lieutenants), something to complicate the fight for the heroes while the bad guys maneuver or make their escape, right?

[pinecone]

Re: Mook rules?

 

At the heroic level for Pulp Hero I'm a big fan of Combat Luck and Normals with 8s. With SPDs of 2 and CVs of 3 or 4, the heroes should be able to put a few down before numbers catch up with them and someone gets a lucky roll.

 

Mooks should mostly be padding for the Master Villain (and his lieutenants), something to complicate the fight for the heroes while the bad guys maneuver or make their escape, right?

 

That, and reminding the Heros just how awesome and buff they are...

[The Monster]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Another important mook rule: mooks don't keep fighting just because they still have a few STUN & BODY left. A mook who gets anything more than a light wound is out of the fight (say, if he takes half his BODY). Struggling to the last is the province of fantaics, major villains, and heroes.

 

In my experience, giving heroes Combat Luck and a SPD of 3-4, and limiting the mooks to SPD 2, is enough to provide a major edge. Enough that I've almost never gone beyond that. Oh, and, of course, only highly trained mooks think of doing things like Brace/Set aiming, taking cover, and suchlike.

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Another important mook rule: mooks don't keep fighting just because they still have a few STUN & BODY left. A mook who gets anything more than a light wound is out of the fight (say, if he takes half his BODY). Struggling to the last is the province of fantaics, major villains, and heroes.

 

In my experience, giving heroes Combat Luck and a SPD of 3-4, and limiting the mooks to SPD 2, is enough to provide a major edge. Enough that I've almost never gone beyond that. Oh, and, of course, only highly trained mooks think of doing things like Brace/Set aiming, taking cover, and suchlike.

 

You might want to add that rolling well, such as criticals, take mooks right out... maybe even stunning them also, depending if you want real fast action.

 

jak

[Basil]

Re: Mook rules?

 

There's also what's known in DnD as "One hit die monsters: you hit it once, it dies."

 

Though in keeping with the pulp feel, you can make them "one hit stun mooks; one hit, it's stunned." Or---if the PC rolls 3 or more above the minimum to hit, the mook is stunned; don't bother rolling damage, he/she/it is down.

 

However, if what you're worried about is the amont of damage a mook might do, just rule that a mook can never do more than half (or a third) of a PC's current BODY.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Ive been contemplating some Mook rules for Pulp Hero, I mean seriously all it takes is a good shot and you have a dead hero, so here is my thought... mooks do no body damage to a hero, no matter what weaponry they are using. This is not to say that a hero cant be beaten down...

 

any opinions on this?

 

(Note, this is assuming there arent some already in place that I havent seen)

How about having it so no matter how much BODY damage a mook's attack causes by the die rolls, the PC takes only 1 BODY? Apply Stun Multiplier (if any) to the single point of BODY. Also, only allow PC's (and maybe major villains) use Hit Locations; mook attacks can do only general hits.

 

Secondly, any PC who is KO'd by mooks is automatically taken prisoner rather than being killed.

 

I plan to avoid accidental instant kill of PCs in our pulp campaign by simply overriding die rolls which would cause that. The dice are my tools as a GM; they don't dictate results to me. Would I allow a PC to die? Certainly. But it's not going to be because some nameless mook with a sword rolls all 6's for damage.

[nytflyr]

Re: Mook rules?

 

How about having it so no matter how much BODY damage a mook's attack causes by the die rolls, the PC takes only 1 BODY? Apply Stun Multiplier (if any) to the single point of BODY. Also, only allow PC's (and maybe major villains) use Hit Locations; mook attacks can do only general hits.

 

Secondly, any PC who is KO'd by mooks is automatically taken prisoner rather than being killed.

 

That was kind of my thought on the matter, its not that I mind them getting beaten down by a mob of zombies or henchement, becasue that can become a cliffhanger of sorts, but I just dont want to see a couple of mooks get a couple of lucky shots in, wounding the character beyond usefullness before the end of the game

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mook rules?

 

That was kind of my thought on the matter' date=' its not that I mind them getting beaten down by a mob of zombies or henchement, becasue that can become a cliffhanger of sorts, but I just dont want to see a couple of mooks get a couple of lucky shots in, wounding the character beyond usefullness before the end of the game[/quote']Mooks damaging the heroes is OK and in genre, but I'm with you: Having a PC die or be crippled from what was supposed to be nothing more than color is A Bad Idea.

[Rapier]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Kind of takes the danger out of the question.

 

It turns things into more of a Stallone/Ahhhnold movie where they walk through the fire of 400 mooks with fully automatic weapons and don't even get so much as a scratch.

 

Kind of pulls the realism (and the threat) right out of the game. Eh.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Kind of pulls the realism (and the threat) right out of the game. Eh.

Hero was supposed to be realistic? Who knew!

 

 

 

 

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

How about having it so no matter how much BODY damage a mook's attack causes by the die rolls, the PC takes only 1 BODY? Apply Stun Multiplier (if any) to the single point of BODY. Also, only allow PC's (and maybe major villains) use Hit Locations; mook attacks can do only general hits.

 

I probably wouldn't reduce the amount of Body to 1, but you might reduce any killing attacks they do to normal damage (all 1die killing becomes 3 dice normal damage). That would reduce the amount of body done, and you get a lot more knockouts...

 

jak

[Vondy]

Re: Mook rules?

 

We've used a few of the following rules in the past (not all at once):

 

Hero Points - I think Pulp Hero has Action Points or some such. Basically the same thing.

 

Hero Dice - purchased for named characters only. Basically, you purchase luck, but... you roll the dice at the beginning of each session (or scene) and count up the total. That is the number of "wiggle points" you can burn to effect your own rolls - or the rolls of others. --one proposed variant of this is having all PCs keep track of an expendable emergency pool, which is replenished based on heroic action, genre apropos action, good role-playing, and bringing pizza and coke.

 

Mechanical Solutions - Combat Luck being the preferred method - "just a flesh wound." Another is a metagaming assumption that all named characters have damage reduction against all mooks at no cost - this applies to black hats and white hats equally. You could also allow healing with charges, a trigger, and metagaming limitations attached.

 

Cinematic Healing Rules - at the end of a combat wounds of 1 Body disappear, wound of 2 body are reduced to 1. Wounds of more than that are left alone (which doesn't help the problem you were thinking about).

 

Glass Jawed Mooks - any time a mook takes body or gets con stunned they go down.

 

Genre Words - the players all draw a certain number of genre words or shticks from a hat. If they can work the word into an apropos plot twist (the table approves or disapproves) then they can change the results of an action during a scene. Each word or shtick can only only be played once in a session. Note: Villains get them, too.

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

You know, you could make mook rules a little more abstract. Take this scene from Dragon Tiger (from YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0RIKDZlQJY

 

The "hero" has to work his way through a hallway of mooks to get away. You could play the scene, but abstract the mooks as if they were an Area Effect, Physical Damage, Based on a Skill roll (martial arts). Set the OCV of the mook blob, and work out a way for the hero to deal with movement through the blob, how he takes damage, how he defends against injury, and such like that...

 

It might work if my brain were working this early in the morning...

 

jak

[JmOz]

Re: Mook rules?

 

so basicaly a human sized swarm...interesting

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

so basicaly a human sized swarm...interesting

 

You can even take extra defense (or Combat Luck) versus mook swarms, based on a skill roll (OCV based). Basically, you're doing a LOT of blocking...

 

Damage could be ablative, based on how much damage you do to the blob... weird stuff like that...

 

jak

[JmOz]

Re: Mook rules?

 

You can even take extra defense (or Combat Luck) versus mook swarms, based on a skill roll (OCV based). Basically, you're doing a LOT of blocking...

 

Damage could be ablative, based on how much damage you do to the blob... weird stuff like that...

 

jak

 

 

I think I will have to try that the next time I run champions, just does not have the right feel for my current Pulp game, but definatly an interesting idea...

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

I think I will have to try that the next time I run champions' date=' just does not have the right feel for my current Pulp game, but definatly an interesting idea...[/quote']

 

Well, groups of mooks mostly work against groups of heroes in pulp. A small amount of pulp heroes would just run or evade the large group of cultists. But, yeah, I think a mook blob would work well for a supers campaign... I'll have to try that too...

 

jak

[Zindil]

Re: Mook rules?

 

You could always give the mooks either a psych lim or a physical lim of "has trouble hitting heroic individuals." Give them a hefty ocv penalty associated with it. This is stretching things a bit, but Hero really seems to have problems dealing with mooks based on how the system is designed.

 

In a champions game, a mook doesn't stand a chance of taking out a hero one on one. Things don't scale the same at the heroic level, it seems. By giving the mooks that limitation, they are still deadly to everyone else, but they couldn't ever hit the heroes without getting really lucky. If on that one in hundred chance a mook takes out the hero, that is what heroic action points or villain death traps with a climactic escape are for.

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

You could always give the mooks either a psych lim or a physical lim of "has trouble hitting heroic individuals." Give them a hefty ocv penalty associated with it. This is stretching things a bit, but Hero really seems to have problems dealing with mooks based on how the system is designed.

 

In a champions game, a mook doesn't stand a chance of taking out a hero one on one. Things don't scale the same at the heroic level, it seems. By giving the mooks that limitation, they are still deadly to everyone else, but they couldn't ever hit the heroes without getting really lucky. If on that one in hundred chance a mook takes out the hero, that is what heroic action points or villain death traps with a climactic escape are for.

 

Oh, I don't know... judging from the differences in OCV/DCV between standard heroic characters (4-7) and 'skilled normals' (1-5), you can gauge mooks at a completely different power level than your heroes, no matter what level you are currently playing.

 

jak

[Steve]

Re: Mook rules?

 

The "hero" has to work his way through a hallway of mooks to get away. You could play the scene' date=' but abstract the mooks as if they were an Area Effect, Physical Damage, Based on a Skill roll (martial arts). Set the OCV of the mook blob, and work out a way for the hero to deal with movement through the blob, how he takes damage, how he defends against injury, and such like that...[/quote']

 

Odd. When I first read this, I kept thinking of MMORPG types who could hold a room full of aggro.

 

A mob as a swarm is an interesting idea, and it seems like it would definitely work pretty well in something like a Valdorian Age setting, since combat talents (ie limited powers) can be bought to only affect "minion-level" types.

 

Come to think of it, how would you define an ability that causes minions to focus their attentions on you, leaving weaker characters alone? Limited PRE?

[JakSpade]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Odd. When I first read this, I kept thinking of MMORPG types who could hold a room full of aggro.

 

A mob as a swarm is an interesting idea, and it seems like it would definitely work pretty well in something like a Valdorian Age setting, since combat talents (ie limited powers) can be bought to only affect "minion-level" types.

 

ooOOOooo, I didn't even think about that... Pulp talents that make you "only good versus groups".

 

Come to think of it' date=' how would you define an ability that causes minions to focus their attentions on you, leaving weaker characters alone? Limited PRE?[/quote']

 

It could be a psych lim for the mob, "focuses attacks on highest threat" or "targets character with the highest PRE" or something like that...

 

jak

[Zindil]

Re: Mook rules?

 

Oh, I don't know... judging from the differences in OCV/DCV between standard heroic characters (4-7) and 'skilled normals' (1-5), you can gauge mooks at a completely different power level than your heroes, no matter what level you are currently playing.

 

jak

 

 

I agree that a couple of mooks will be no match for a hero, but if you get them in large groups they can be very deadly. Assume that a standard mook will have an ocv of 3 and a hero will have around a 6. That mook will have roughly a 25% chance of hitting the hero. That is not a problem.

 

However, to simulate some of the pulp situations where the hero wades through a small army of 10 mooks, something else will have to be done. 2 or 3 out of 10 would hit the hero per phase. This could lead to a situation where the hero could die from mooks alone. That is why I suggested a psych lim on mooks.

 

I wasn't explicit before on the scenario I had in mind, but I still think that simulating a scene like this can be problematic in Hero without some creative solutions. Not that Hero can't simulate pulp; it obviously can. However, I think it simulates supers and fantasy better than it does pulp, and I think that Spirit of the Century simulates pulp better than Hero does.

[Prometheus]

Re: Mook rules?

 

To be fair, sending one starting Pulp Hero character against 10 mooks in a staight up fight and expecting him to come out untouched might be a little much. Even Doc Savage and the Shadow would maneuver and take out mooks piecemeal.