Tuala Morn questions

[eternal_sage]

first, if anyone is familiar with Katherine Kerr and the Deverry books, do they have similar feel as Tuala Morn (obviously it won't be exact, because they are different worlds and what not). basically does it have a similar low fantasy celtic feel to those, or are they more similar to the Katherine Kurtz Deryni novels? or they completely like niether, and instead more like something else? even if that something else is simply Celtic mythos.

 

second, how well written is the book? does it have really excellent story/plot hooks/ history/culture bits? or is it genero-fantasy world? does the setting itself scream "PLAY ME DARN IT!!" or is it more of a "if your bored, you could maybe roll some dice at me for a little while..."? this is completely a question of setting and style over substance. i don't care if some mechanic is weird or something, i just want to know about look/feel.

 

third, what does it play like? have your games been enjoyable, and do your players get excited for it because of the setting, or does their interest come from general pointy-thing weilding? or is there no interest?

 

finally, what is the over all feeling of the world? utopian? distopian? mythic? historical? black-and-white? are character "alignments" valid in both extremes? i.e. are evil and good characters both well supported, or is it more balanced in one way or the other? (obviously there is no alignment system, but you get the point).

[Hermit]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

first, if anyone is familiar with Katherine Kerr and the Deverry books, do they have similar feel as Tuala Morn (obviously it won't be exact, because they are different worlds and what not). basically does it have a similar low fantasy celtic feel to those, or are they more similar to the Katherine Kurtz Deryni novels? or they completely like niether, and instead more like something else? even if that something else is simply Celtic mythos.

 

I'm not as familar with the Deverry Books (though I enjoyed the first one), but I'd say closer to that that the Kurtz Dernyi series. The Dernyi series is a bit more ..well, civilized may not be a fair term to use, but it is what is coming to mind, than Tuala Morn. Though not by much.

 

It also had a nice touch of the books by Alexander Lloyd if you ask me. Childhood books they may have been, but they touch the celtic feel nicely. But it seemed to me to draw from the old Celtic myths and legends most of all. The Ulster Cycle, that sort of thing.

 

second, how well written is the book? does it have really excellent story/plot hooks/ history/culture bits? or is it genero-fantasy world? does the setting itself scream "PLAY ME DARN IT!!" or is it more of a "if your bored, you could maybe roll some dice at me for a little while..."? this is completely a question of setting and style over substance. i don't care if some mechanic is weird or something, i just want to know about look/feel.

 

It's certainly NOT genero fantasy. In fact, my chief problem with it is it is a bit intimidating if you aren't into Celtic history/mythos like some of your players might be. If you love the Celtic stuff, that shouldn't be a problem, and if you still feel ignorant, well, there are great sources online and off. I found the interaction and politics between the kingdoms, some of them shaped in part by mystical forces like curses, to be very intriguing and finely knit. You could do a political campaign easily if you wished. I liked the options for 'standard hero levels' and 'heroes of legend' play. Religionwise the monotheic faith brought in is somewhat cast as the bad guy, but not entirely, and the areas that deviated from Celtic history was done in the name of legendary feel or importing some new options in (Knights, for example, are rare, but here). If anything, there were almost TOO many kingdoms in the setting screaming 'start in me, start in me'. It did something with Nobles I adore... the 'one with the land bit' has been one of my favorite gigs in myth.

 

third, what does it play like? have your games been enjoyable, and do your players get excited for it because of the setting, or does their interest come from general pointy-thing weilding? or is there no interest?

I have yet to have the time to play it, but at least one of my players is very much interested. Maybe when I close some other campaigns down, I'll start this one up.

finally, what is the over all feeling of the world? utopian? distopian? mythic? historical? black-and-white? are character "alignments" valid in both extremes? i.e. are evil and good characters both well supported, or is it more balanced in one way or the other? (obviously there is no alignment system, but you get the point).

 

As I said above, it deviates from historical to embrace even more mythos but the celtic feel itself is never lost. Honor, Glory, and Hospitality are stressed as the virtues, which leaves plenty of room for some very violent mindsets that are hard for the 21st century man to grasp as 'good' if you want to muddy the waters by playing such. The "Heroes" of Tuala Morn operate by a different code from most typical D&D worlds (which have a hard time capturing the historical feel so much as creating the modern world with fantasy trappings).. and that code can vary depending on the role they've taken on, what country they come from, and , of course, their backstory. One thing I didn't care for about the Turakian Age (and it was a minor gripe) was Turak himself.. too omnipresent, and destined to come down on you...shortly (But the GM could hand wave that, so again, it's a minor gripe). The Tuala Morn setting has some big bads , some men, some darker...but the future is a lot more wide open and the sides aren't nearly so clean cut. There's one ruler who is "dishonorably" dealing with Vulkrangs to protect his kingdom from another Tualan in a neighboring kingdom, and yet, his intentions are noble IIRC and perhaps even wise (at least for now). It is a very rich tapestry instead of being merely muddled or grey. IMO anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

My review touches on most of what makes Tuala Morn unique.

 

I'll go into some specifics of why this setting is more than just Fantasy With Celtic Words.

 

When you create a character the book provides a series of Package Deals, unlike many settings where the Package Deals are "really good suggestions" these are The People. The book tells you altering them will ruin the feel of the setting.

 

If you take the Druid Package Deal it will take most of your characters points (129 of them) - but it tells you that this character has become a Druid Of Tuala Morn, not someone who is Druid Like (like most settings). It's not very mutable, but the Package Deal gives you what you need to make a Druid what he is in the setting.

 

This Package includes 30 points of Magic Perks & Spells. Druidic Magic, which ONLY Druids can learn, is bought a very specific way. A Perk for each category (there are 4) and 1 point per spell. The number of points in the Perk determines the highest Rank of spell you can cast; so a Druid can focus on one category (placing say 10 points into it), with three lesser categories (4 points each) and one category he has little power in (2 points). This leaves 10 points for spells - or he knows 10 Spells at the start of the game.

Every spell, regardless of Rank costs 1 point, but you can only purchase and cast spells of a Rank equal to or less than the number of points in Perk for that spells category. (the categories are organized by season).

 

Last, our Druid has (assuming 150pt characters) 31 points left, most of these will likely go into Characteristics knowing Players. The nice aspect of this setup is you don't have the "Druid" who is really a "Fighter Guy Who Knows Magic" at the start like many people tend to play in generifantasy. Of course after some time adventuring he's sure to buff up a bit. . .

 

The idea is if you stick to the Package Deals as presented you have a very strong setting where people have their roles, and they are Their Lives. You tend not to get into the mashing of roles that occurs in many High Fantasy games.

 

On the High/Low Fantasy, I would put Tuala Morn near the middle, the magic is certainly powerful, but rare for the everyday person (smithing in and of itself is considered magic, many villages don't have a blacksmith much less "armor shops"). Adventurers being what they are will encounter the magic and fantastic things of the land much more often than the common person - thus making them Heros.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Honor' date=' Glory, and Hospitality are stressed as the virtues, which leaves plenty of room for some very violent mindsets that are hard for the 21st century man to grasp as 'good' if you want to muddy the waters by playing such. The "Heroes" of Tuala Morn operate by a different code from most typical D&D worlds (which have a hard time capturing the historical feel so much as creating the modern world with fantasy trappings).. and that code can vary depending on the role they've taken on, what country they come from, and , of course, their backstory. [/quote']

 

This is a good point - if you really embrace how Steve set up the culture it will play radically differently from your average fantasy game.

 

If a Troll Army is marching on you and you challenge the Troll Leader and win his army goes back to the mountains because that's the code of honor the land goes by. It's not an opportunity for the Troll army to sneak around and ambush you later because "That's what a smart army would do" - it would violate the code of ethics the Land Itself has.

[Hermit]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Mm, the packages can be a little more rigid. I hadn't thought of that. For guys like me who are not very Celt knowledgeable, that is actually something of a plus. I imagine the Celt experts will feel more confident in constructing their own, and altering freely.

[Savinien]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I have to agree with Hermit. I was very excited about the book, but it was too well styled and niche for me. I was intimidated and lost by all the Celtic stuff that I thought I had an idea about.

 

I didn't.

 

If you do... This book is for you.

 

If you don't, I'd suggest Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, or Lost Dominion.

[Hermit]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I have to agree with Hermit. I was very excited about the book, but it was too well styled and niche for me. I was intimidated and lost by all the Celtic stuff that I thought I had an idea about.

 

I didn't.

 

If you do... This book is for you.

 

If you don't, I'd suggest Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, or Lost Dominion.

 

Well, to be fair, a few internet searches, and even better, pestering my more celtic oriented friends for info did help wonders. I still plan to play it ...eventually

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I'm not Celtic expert, I'm not even sure I really qualify as amateur.

 

But the book gave me enough to know who stood where in society and to roleplay out a PC without breaking mold. If I looked up anything it'd be vocabulary.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I won't touch on most points, because I think e_s wants fan input rather than company promo, but let me briefly discuss literary inspirations and ties.

 

I've only read one Deverry book, so I can't say for certain, but I don't think TM is really like them. If it is, it's sheer coincidence, since I'm not familiar with that property.

 

I love and have repeatedly read the Deryni books. I'd say at best they're marginally related to TM. There are definitely some similiarities, mostly having to do with the interrelationship of various politic entities, religious concerns, etc., but that's it. If I ever want to do a Gwynnedd-like setting, I would use Logres from the TM setting. In fact, I will probably use Logres in my playtest campaign for the "build and play a kingdom" rules for The Ultimate Base.

 

I've read plenty of Irish/Celtic myth and legend, and they're obviously quite influential on TM as a whole.

 

Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy I would also count as influential on TM, much more so than Kerr's or Kurtz's work. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Patricia McKillip's "Three Stars" (aka "Riddlemaster") trilogy.

 

The Bibliography on page 300 of TM lists plenty of references both fictional and nonfictional that I think you'd enjoy.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

sounds like good stuff. one of my all time fav authors is Kerr (altough the Deverry books kind of teter out about half way through the cycle, the first 4 are still some of the all time best low-magic celtic fantasy i've found) which is why i was wondering about them, altough she is not very popular (for reasons that escape me, but i also can understand why HERO is not more popular, so go fig.)

 

considering i have a good knowledge of cultures and people and my wife is learning gaelic and is into fae, i think this may be a good bet for us. still, its good to have a literary place to general say "this is sorta like this", just for a quick overview kind of set up.

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Just a quick side question, is TM playable with just the TM book and the FReD, or is Fantasy Hero needed as well?

[bobrunnicles]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

In fact' date=' I will probably use Logres in my playtest campaign for the "build and play a kingdom" rules for [i']The Ultimate Base.[/i]

 

Huh, I hadn't thought about fantasy kingdoms and how they extrapolate to the 'base' paradigm.....this now makes me much more excited about The Ultimate Base book than I was previously. :)

[Susano]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Just a quick side question' date=' is TM playable with just the TM book and the FReD, or is Fantasy Hero needed as well?[/quote']

 

You don't really ned FH to play a TM game, but it would help if the heroes go beyond the TM lands. And, in all seriousness, Ninja Hero would be a huge help for a TM setting. Celtic feats and wuxia abilities have a lot in common.

[Steve Long]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

GKS, the TM book does reference FH in some places. I won't say you absolutely need it, since after all settings are usually independent to some degree (and TM moreso than many of ours), but it wouldn't hurt to have it around.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Huh' date=' I hadn't thought about fantasy kingdoms and how they extrapolate to the 'base' paradigm.....this now makes me much more excited about The Ultimate Base book than I was previously. :)[/quote']

I will now stop working on my stuff for this...

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

GKS' date=' the TM book does reference FH in some places. I won't say you absolutely [i']need[/i] it, since after all settings are usually independent to some degree (and TM moreso than many of ours), but it wouldn't hurt to have it around.

 

Man, now I just need to find the book. Or keep waiting for the re-print.

[Markdoc]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Man' date=' now I just need to find the book. Or keep waiting for the re-print.[/quote']

 

I'd agree. I bought FH, and I enjoyed reading it, but it's more of an ideas/atmosphere thing than a reference book. I find I hardly ever open it when GM'ing or writing stuff up for the game. I get far more use out of the bestiary-like books.

 

OTOH, I had stuff like weapons, armour, prices, etc already worked up for my game and have a "campaign book" (about 10 pages) of that sort of stuff printed out for my players to reference. If you don't have that, you might have more use for it.

 

As for Tuala Morn, it's a good setting. If I'd been writing it, I'd have made some different design decisions (like keeping Logres and Knights further away) but that comes down to personal preference.

 

I do hope, however that if it's ever reprinted they take the time and expense to redo the maps and much of the art - it's hands-down the most amateurish presentation of any of my Hero books.

 

cheers, Mark

[eternal_sage]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

thank you, markdoc, that was a very informative alternate view. luckily, the art really only matters to me when i'm new to the system. i've gotten used to the less than hi-quality art in HERO books. hopefully that will change however.

 

also, i find it odd that you think very poorly of the art in the book, while i have seen somewhere else (g-a's article maybe?) that the art was really good. course, art is subjective above all else, so one man's trash is another man's treasure, cliche cliche, blah blah etc.

[Susano]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

thank you, markdoc, that was a very informative alternate view. luckily, the art really only matters to me when i'm new to the system. i've gotten used to the less than hi-quality art in HERO books. hopefully that will change however.

 

also, i find it odd that you think very poorly of the art in the book, while i have seen somewhere else (g-a's article maybe?) that the art was really good. course, art is subjective above all else, so one man's trash is another man's treasure, cliche cliche, blah blah etc.

 

I didn't think the art was that bad either.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Most art in the HERO books is either hit or miss for me. It's a rare thing for me to see mediocre art in them.

 

But on topic, Tuala Morn is looking like a reference purchase for me in the very near future.

[eternal_sage]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

same here, not to mention it sounds like some of the ideas i had for my wife's japanese fantasy setting (spearmen sound alot like our kensai, for example) so maybe there are some cool things i could steal...er borrow, making the book doubly useful.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

Re the Maps. I think the maps in Tuala Morn are top notch.

 

The maps in TM are all full page, by comparison the maps in Turakian Age are not.

 

I like the simpler shading of Lees (he hangs out on the boards, but for the life of me I cannot remember his user name), vs the more complex shading of Keith Curtis' maps. This is a preference issue though.

 

While the simply quality (readability really) of both is excellent.

[Hermit]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I think the maps period for HERO games are top notch, one area where their art is consistently excellent.

 

Tuala Morn's maps being full page were a nice touch.

[Markdoc]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

I didn't think the art was that bad either.

 

OK, I guess art is more subjective than I had realised!

 

There are some nice (to my eyes) clean pieces of line art and many pieces (again to my eyes) with bizarre anatomy that are dark and sort of "blobby". Likewise, the style of the maps - although they were clear enough - I found off-putting. (To me, they look like they'd been hacked together in a hurry using a really cheap drawing program). Although I had been waiting eagerly for the release, I found the whole so offputting that I almost didn't buy it.

 

Looks like it's a minority view, though.

 

Anyway, presentation issues aside, I'd still recommend the book to a FH GM - there's lots of detail, plenty of plothooks hanging and it'd be easy to set a campaign there. Even if you don't, there's idea's a plenty to harvest for other games. So I'm glad I bought it - I simply hide it from my players so they don't accidentally look inside.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tuala Morn questions

 

OK' date=' I guess art is more subjective than I had realised![/quote']

 

This is part of why my reviews don't take art into account.

 

Some people think the Mona Lisa is an ugly painting. The concept of "Good Art" is far to subjective to be measured in any objective manner at all.