An alternative to CSLs?

[BoneDaddy]

So, I could buy 9 CSLs with swords (for example), for 27 points. Or, I can buy a naked advantage, Area of Effect, 1 hex, for all HKA's up to 2d6, with the +0 advantage, "precise" (don't have the book with me right now, thought of this on the train this AM, so the name might be off by a synonym), for 15 points. I can make it 0 END for a total of 23 points, and throw on an OIF to bring it back down to 15. Sure, I can't put it in DCV or add damage dice with it, but suddenly I'm the best offensive swordsman in the land, since everyone else's DCV is 3 when I have a sword in hand.

 

So, aside from my blatant, heinous munchkinry, am I wrong? Would you allow it? How about if I added an "RSR - analyze combat" to justify my complete mastery over an individual opponant?

[Sean Waters]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Well, naked advantages can easily be abused, but what constitutes abuse in a given situation is really a matter of individual campaigns.

 

You've spend 15 points. Cool.

 

Say you have a DEX of 18 and a SPD of 4.

 

Your opponent, who has the same DEX and SPD as you, spends 15 points on 5 skill levels. He pops them on OCV and you have a go at each other.

 

You need 6-3+0+11=14- to hit him.

 

He needs 6-6+5+11=16- to hit you.

 

Now it seems to me he's getting the better part of the bargain there. I mean you are both going to be bleeding, but the oddds are slightly better for him surviving than for you.

 

Now the advantage probably helps with more weapons than his skill levels do, but even if he bought 3 skill levels with all melee, he'd be batting the same average as you. In fact, if he bought 5 point CSLs he could give them a OIF limitation and buy 4 of them for 13 points. And you have more flexibility with levels, even in this sort of fight.

 

In a game with much higher levels of DEX*, the naked advantage is probably a better bet, and you are effectively the same against the best and the worst swordsman in the land (how do you explain that?)

 

It is not particularly abusive to my mind, nor, assuming you CAN justify why it works like this, particularly munchkiny. OTOH it is not as all-powerful as it probably appears at first blush.

 

 

 

 

 

*But then this has the feel of a Fantasy question, and so the DEX is not at all unreasonable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

...which demonstrates that Hero point balancing quite often gets it just right

[BoneDaddy]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Plenty of food for thought. Nifty.

[Talon]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Sure, but someone looking to abuse the system in this case would also get just enough levels to hit DCV 3 on a 17-...

 

I would only allow it with some restriction (like the RSR), or in a very very high level game.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I would only allow it with some restriction (like the RSR)' date=' or in a very very high level game.[/quote']But ironically, I think it would be more abusive in a high-level game... not less. Since characters in a high-level game are more likely to have wider and higher ranges of CVs, an effect that reduces them to a flat value is more powerful.

 

For example, in a campaign where the average DEX for PCs is 18, having this power would counteract 24 points that your opponent has spent (the cost of their DEX above 10) and would allow you to hit on a 14-. But in a campaign where the average DEX for PCs is 29, this power would counteract 57 points your opponent has spent, and would allow you to hit on a 17-.

 

The higher the power level of the campaign gets, the more abusive this power is. In a typical Fantasy Hero game, it might not be abusive at all. In a typical Galactic Champions game, it might be horribly abusive.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I was initially considering it for a 325 pt level game, where it would only be moderately abusive. I am considering a non-super combat master type (ordinary characteristic maxima, in any event) and trying to figure out how to even the odds when squaring off against your average super ninja with a dex of 36 and CSLs out the yin-yang. It happens all the time in genre, from Taskmaster to Bruce Wayne. I was looking for a Northwest passage, a way to get the other guy's DCV down if I couldn't get my OCV up any higher. It's rules legal, and I'd be OK with it with an RSR.

 

It has potential. Now all I have to do is get his OCV down... Thus enters - The Moe Maneuver (eye poke!) Nyuck nyuck nyuck...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I was initially considering it for a 325 pt level game, where it would only be moderately abusive. I am considering a non-super combat master type (ordinary characteristic maxima, in any event) and trying to figure out how to even the odds when squaring off against your average super ninja with a dex of 36 and CSLs out the yin-yang. It happens all the time in genre, from Taskmaster to Bruce Wayne. I was looking for a Northwest passage, a way to get the other guy's DCV down if I couldn't get my OCV up any higher. It's rules legal, and I'd be OK with it with an RSR.

 

It has potential. Now all I have to do is get his OCV down... Thus enters - The Moe Maneuver (eye poke!) Nyuck nyuck nyuck...

 

I'm envisioning a character with a DEX of 20 or higher, so a CV of 7+. He'll hit DCV 3 95%+ of the time, so he's getting the benefit of this "reduce the opponent's DCV" power almost always.

 

So, for 23 points, the character negates his opponent's 35 DEX (+9 DCV), his levels in DCV and his combat maneuver bonuses to DCV. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. IIRC, Dodge bonuses will still apply against 1 Hex Accurate attacks, so the character isn't guaranteed to hit those MA's he comes up against.

 

The SFX question is a good one - why would this "increased accuracy" make the character more likely to hit an MA with a 35 DEX, +5 DCV levels and a +2 maneuver modifier (19 DCV) than he is to hit a normal who Dodges (6 DCV)?

 

By invoking the Names of Characters, you have invoked the Curse of Appropriate Build Arguments upon this thread! Many would suggest that neither Bruce Wayne nor Taskmaster have a mere 20 DEX. Did Bruce Lee have a "normal human" range DEX?

 

Bats has been debated to death. Taskmaster is technically a mutant, and superhuman DEX seems well within his parameters. He has been able to emulate SpiderMan's fighting style, and Spidey definitely has superhuman DEX. There's also his own Mini where he was able to speed up his reflexes by videotaping himself, then watching the tape in a fast forward mode.

 

At the end of the day, if the character's concept is that he has normal human agility, maybe he SHOULD NOT be able to hit targets which vastly surpass the human limits of agility.

[Talon]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

But ironically' date=' I think it would be [b']more[/b] abusive in a high-level game... not less. Since characters in a high-level game are more likely to have wider and higher ranges of CVs, an effect that reduces them to a flat value is more powerful.

 

For example, in a campaign where the average DEX for PCs is 18, having this power would counteract 24 points that your opponent has spent (the cost of their DEX above 10) and would allow you to hit on a 14-. But in a campaign where the average DEX for PCs is 29, this power would counteract 57 points your opponent has spent, and would allow you to hit on a 17-.

 

The higher the power level of the campaign gets, the more abusive this power is. In a typical Fantasy Hero game, it might not be abusive at all. In a typical Galactic Champions game, it might be horribly abusive.

 

Yes and no...in a higher power game, people who depend solely on DCV for survival are going to be in big trouble anyway, and armor values are generally higher. True, in a true low power game (like 50 point PCs) it will be less useful, but in a 100-150 point game I think it would be pretty darn good.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Hugh,

 

I generally agree with you, particularly with regard to special effects. I think a justification would have to include a different special ability, perhaps a psychic bond with his opponant - link the AoE naked advantage to a mind scan, perhaps, making this a fine supplement to a Mentalist Light (now less filling!) character.

[Rapier]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I generally look at builds as 'is this the most direct path from Point A to B?'

 

I've always kind of gone 'HUH?' about Accurate. It's an AoE Attack that will only hit 1 person? Seems like defeating the whole point of AoE (other than the whole DCV 3 thing).

 

About the only thing I could even see this being used for is a nice little quick method to get a Magic Missile build.

 

It just strikes me as the same reasoning behind Costs END & Reduced END.

 

I guess what I am saying is that Accurate has a place in the scheme of things. I don't think I would ever allow it as a Naked Advantage (although I mostly say that because I can't think of a single example...but I'm sure SOMEONE could come up with one I would allow). I wouldn't allow your build into my game, it's much simpler and straight forward to just purchase a couple of levels.

[archermoo]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I'm envisioning a character with a DEX of 20 or higher, so a CV of 7+. He'll hit DCV 3 95%+ of the time, so he's getting the benefit of this "reduce the opponent's DCV" power almost always.

 

So, for 23 points, the character negates his opponent's 35 DEX (+9 DCV), his levels in DCV and his combat maneuver bonuses to DCV. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. IIRC, Dodge bonuses will still apply against 1 Hex Accurate attacks, so the character isn't guaranteed to hit those MA's he comes up against.

 

The SFX question is a good one - why would this "increased accuracy" make the character more likely to hit an MA with a 35 DEX, +5 DCV levels and a +2 maneuver modifier (19 DCV) than he is to hit a normal who Dodges (6 DCV)?

 

By invoking the Names of Characters, you have invoked the Curse of Appropriate Build Arguments upon this thread! Many would suggest that neither Bruce Wayne nor Taskmaster have a mere 20 DEX. Did Bruce Lee have a "normal human" range DEX?

 

Bats has been debated to death. Taskmaster is technically a mutant, and superhuman DEX seems well within his parameters. He has been able to emulate SpiderMan's fighting style, and Spidey definitely has superhuman DEX. There's also his own Mini where he was able to speed up his reflexes by videotaping himself, then watching the tape in a fast forward mode.

 

At the end of the day, if the character's concept is that he has normal human agility, maybe he SHOULD NOT be able to hit targets which vastly surpass the human limits of agility.

 

Some clarification. AoE 1Hex Accurate does go against a DCV of 3. However the target can also Dodge the attack, and if they Dodge or use another defensive maneuver they also get to use any CSLs that that they have that can be used as DCV to increase their DCV further.

 

And while it is off topic, I thought I'd also point out that characteristics aren't superhuman until they hit 31 or higher. And yes, I'd personally say that Bruce Lee's DEX was Human (rather than Superhuman), though probably not by much. Comfortably deep into the Legendary category (21-30) would be my take on it.

[JmOz]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Some clarification. AoE 1Hex Accurate does go against a DCV of 3. However the target can also Dodge the attack, and if they Dodge or use another defensive maneuver they also get to use any CSLs that that they have that can be used as DCV to increase their DCV further.

 

And while it is off topic, I thought I'd also point out that characteristics aren't superhuman until they hit 31 or higher. And yes, I'd personally say that Bruce Lee's DEX was Human (rather than Superhuman), though probably not by much. Comfortably deep into the Legendary category (21-30) would be my take on it.

 

Actualy, on the where is super human, the book says that it changes per campeign BUT this is the common scale used for Champions Universe, and implied through out the HERO Universe

[braincraft]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Naked Accurate won't help you with Block, and it scales in cost with the active points of your attack. +10 3-point OCV levels is a lot more efficient against opponents with 13 DCV or less than Accurate on a 30 active point attack power; if DCVs are high, Accurate becomes more cost-effective, if attack powers are strong, CSLs become more cost-effective.

[archermoo]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Actualy' date=' on the where is super human, the book says that it changes per campeign BUT this is the common scale used for Champions Universe, and implied through out the HERO Universe[/quote']

 

Very true. The book specifies that the Legendary category is the upper limit of normal human attainment, and gives default values for that category. If someone wants to talk about the highest normal human Characteristics and doesn't specify a range, I can only assume that they are talking about the standard range presented in the core rules.

[JmOz]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Very true. The book specifies that the Legendary category is the upper limit of normal human attainment' date=' and gives default values for that category. If someone wants to talk about the highest normal human Characteristics and doesn't specify a range, I can only assume that they are talking about the standard range presented in the core rules.[/quote']

 

 

Yah I was probably being a little to snickidy for my own good there

[pinecone]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

So, I could buy 9 CSLs with swords (for example), for 27 points. Or, I can buy a naked advantage, Area of Effect, 1 hex, for all HKA's up to 2d6, with the +0 advantage, "precise" (don't have the book with me right now, thought of this on the train this AM, so the name might be off by a synonym), for 15 points. I can make it 0 END for a total of 23 points, and throw on an OIF to bring it back down to 15. Sure, I can't put it in DCV or add damage dice with it, but suddenly I'm the best offensive swordsman in the land, since everyone else's DCV is 3 when I have a sword in hand.

 

So, aside from my blatant, heinous munchkinry, am I wrong? Would you allow it? How about if I added an "RSR - analyze combat" to justify my complete mastery over an individual opponant?

 

Yeah..it's doable...I think its "Accurate" rather than precise....

 

I think that also alows it to be blocked (I'd do so anyway) so you might get schooled by a +8 CSL fighter with block and Counter though ( especially all those aimed shots) and /or the crits (if used) from rolling under half his hit roll ( OCV 15( CV7+8) , plus 2 for counter= OCV 17...hits on say a 21?) (I'm assuming Dex 20 for both swordsmen) so It's gross...but not so much more gross than other builds I'd say....

[pinecone]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Hugh,

 

I generally agree with you, particularly with regard to special effects. I think a justification would have to include a different special ability, perhaps a psychic bond with his opponant - link the AoE naked advantage to a mind scan, perhaps, making this a fine supplement to a Mentalist Light (now less filling!) character.

 

I'd likely try "Combat Telepathy"...I always know where you're going to move to...Precog works good too....

[archermoo]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Well, the answer from Steve is in. In addition in being able to Dodge AoE 1Hex Accurate attacks, you can also Block them. And if they are Ranged they can be Missile Deflected/Reflected. So they aren't quite as powerful as they might look upon first blush.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Well' date=' the answer from Steve is in. In addition in being able to Dodge AoE 1Hex Accurate attacks, you can also Block them. And if they are Ranged they can be Missile Deflected/Reflected. So they aren't quite as powerful as they might look upon first blush.[/quote']

Sure. When I don't want to be blocked I take 1" of stretching.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

Sure. When I don't want to be blocked I take 1" of stretching.

And that stops you from being Blocked... how, exactly?

[archermoo]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

And that stops you from being Blocked... how' date=' exactly?[/quote']

 

Yeah, what he said.

[Zed-F]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

1" of stretching won't make an attack unblockable. A level of Indirect, however, might.

 

I don't see any problem with a 1-hex accurate attack in certain kinds of settings. A wuxia game would be the perfect time to trot a 1-hex accurate HA or HKA option out, as part of a multipower of various special combat techniques the character has picked up over time. Anime-themed games or video-game martial arts, similar. Some kinds of high fantasy games offer similar power levels, as do some superheroic seettings, especially those focusing on weapons-play.

[archermoo]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

1" of stretching won't make an attack unblockable. A level of Indirect' date=' however, might.[/quote']

 

I don't see anything in the description of Indirect in 5ER that indicates that. It does mention that the attack might get a bonus for Surprise the first time it is used against someone. But nothing about making it unblockable.

 

I don't see any problem with a 1-hex accurate attack in certain kinds of settings. A wuxia game would be the perfect time to trot a 1-hex accurate HA or HKA option out' date=' as part of a multipower of various special combat techniques the character has picked up over time. Anime-themed games or video-game martial arts, similar. Some kinds of high fantasy games offer similar power levels, as do some superheroic seettings, especially those focusing on weapons-play. [/quote']

 

There are certainly many situations that it could be appropriate. I think a lot of the objections to its use are based on an incomplete understanding as to how the Advantage works. Specifically thinking that it is more powerful than it really is.

[Zed-F]

Re: An alternative to CSLs?

 

I don't see anything in the description of Indirect in 5ER that indicates that. It does mention that the attack might get a bonus for Surprise the first time it is used against someone. But nothing about making it unblockable.

I've seen builds where Indirect is explicitly used to make a martial arts strike that is capable of penetrating any defense that is used to block it, e.g. I punch through the wall and hit the guy on the other side. Usually such an Indirect is defined as a +1/4 indirect "up to 1" away". This would logically also negate a block defined as 'block' -- though a point could be made that someone could use a block defined as 'I get out of the way' to defeat such a strike. Sounds like a GM call to me.

 

Another example of an attack which may not be blockable (in this case, deflectable with missile deflection) is a classic "Immolate" style EB, where the target spontaneously catches on fire. This could be defined as an Indirect EB.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of Indirect EBs which are deflectable, so in large part this comes down to SFX.