Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

To me 15 pts. is a lot to spend on wealth, but I can't think of many ways that one could use it....

 

I don't play Filthy Rich folks, except for "concept" purposes, like the rock star/sonic energy projector. But I'm still at a loss as to what it buys other than plane tickets, and lots of replacement insurance for your durable goods.

In the best post-high school FtF gaming group I was with, 15 pts of wealth was for flavor and for a lot of down time as well as social interaction. We had two PCs that had 15 points of wealth. One was "old money" with the other being a hybrid of "old money" and "new money." Anyway, the old money PC had the huge, 100+ year old mansion on a dozen or so acres acres outside city limits. They hybrid had a few acres in the upper class area.

 

Part of our game consisted of team social interaction. While the old money PC would have a high society social event that we were invited to for formal meals or balls or what have you, the hybrid had the indoor basketball gym, olympic-sized swimming pool in the back yard where we'd have picnics. We'd spend an entire gaming session throwing a bachelor party (which partially consisted of a go-cart race through the sewer systems) or havign a get-together playing pool, billiards, swimming, etc.

 

We generally never used wealth as a powers-enhancing device, but often as recreation or as a method to go from point A to B (usually in style) but what comics would use as "turn the page, you're there" type traveling.

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I'm fine with Wealth buying off-the-shelf gear - so long as the players understand that there are some things money simply can't buy, and what can be bought with money will never be as reliable and/or effective as gear purchased with character points.

 

Cell phone bought with cash? Jaguar XJS? No problem.

 

Hyper-scrambled communicator? Stealth transport? Spend points.

Same here, though in recent online games, I've had PCs try to use their cell phones in place of comm devices and other items that points should be spent on, so when something feasible happend (the team was KO'd, woke up in cells and had to break out), everything that points weren't spent on, were gone.

[nexus]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Asserbic humor aside. I never really could believe in the power armor characters that stole their armor and maintained it indefinitely . The first time the armor was majorly trashed it would be all over. One time captured and its all over etc. I agree the character should either be able to afford to maintain it either by themselves or though another and either he or a patron should have the relevant skills. Any champions characters like Ankylosaur i use I rewrite to reflect this. If someone can make a poor power armor guy work logically that's great' date=' but I won't throw logic out the window just to thwart cliches[/quote']

 

Maybe they spend most of their earnings on maintaining the suit, buying spare parts and/or paying others to maintain and repair it and that's why they don't have Wealth or as much as you might think?

[OddHat]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Same here' date=' though in recent online games, I've had PCs try to use their cell phones in place of comm devices and other items that [i']points[/i] should be spent on, so when something feasible happend (the team was KO'd, woke up in cells and had to break out), everything that points weren't spent on, were gone.

 

Player: "OK, I made my stealth roll. I move in behind the guards."

 

GM: "Your cell phone starts ringing. The William Tell overture is your ring tone, right? Anyway, the guards hear it."

 

Player: "What?!?"

 

GM: "You never said you were setting it on vibrate, and you were talking on it in the last scene. Phase 12."

 

[Trebuchet]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Same here' date=' though in recent online games, I've had PCs try to use their cell phones in place of comm devices and other items that [i']points[/i] should be spent on, so when something feasible happend (the team was KO'd, woke up in cells and had to break out), everything that points weren't spent on, were gone.

It's simple enough to deal with cell phones - they don't work all the time even in real life, never mind in the middle of the bad guy's secret (radio shielded) base or without a recharge for 3 days. Ditto for cars, weapons, and other money-bought hardware.

 

Of course if you're really nasty, the bad guys are using radio-detection gear...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

It's simple enough to deal with cell phones - they don't work all the time even in real life, never mind in the middle of the bad guy's secret (radio shielded) base or without a recharge for 3 days. Ditto for cars, weapons, and other money-bought hardware.

 

Of course if you're really nasty, the bad guys are using radio-detection gear...

 

A little bath soon takes care of them. Or a "just missed" shot from a villain might mash the phone instead.

 

Where do you carry that phone while wearing your skintight SuperSuit?

 

Is it programmed with the numbers for your Supers colleagues (making it troublesome if someone borrows it from your normal ID), or of your normal contacts (making it problematic if examined by a Super enemy)? If you have separate phones for each ID, where do you keep the one for one ID when you're in the other one?

 

What does Nosy Reporter Perri Pain think when she tries to call your secret ID to find out where he went during all the excitement, and his ringtone comes out of SplendidMan's cape?

 

Who gets the bill for that phone? Does SplendidMan have a mailing address, a bank account and a credit card?

 

If you want realistic equipment purchased with realistic wealth, it comes with realistic issues attached, doesn't it?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

A little bath soon takes care of them. Or a "just missed" shot from a villain might mash the phone instead.

 

Where do you carry that phone while wearing your skintight SuperSuit?

 

Is it programmed with the numbers for your Supers colleagues (making it troublesome if someone borrows it from your normal ID), or of your normal contacts (making it problematic if examined by a Super enemy)? If you have separate phones for each ID, where do you keep the one for one ID when you're in the other one?

 

What does Nosy Reporter Perri Pain think when she tries to call your secret ID to find out where he went during all the excitement, and his ringtone comes out of SplendidMan's cape?

 

Who gets the bill for that phone? Does SplendidMan have a mailing address, a bank account and a credit card?

 

If you want realistic equipment purchased with realistic wealth, it comes with realistic issues attached, doesn't it?

Our four Dark Champions characters use pre-paid cell phones to keep in contact with each other and have to be very careful how they use them. Similarly, they use an off-the-shelf police-band radio to monitor the local PD (and it's not mobile).

[incrdbil]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

It's simple enough to deal with cell phones - they don't work all the time even in real life, never mind in the middle of the bad guy's secret (radio shielded) base or without a recharge for 3 days. Ditto for cars, weapons, and other money-bought hardware.

 

Of course if you're really nasty, the bad guys are using radio-detection gear...

 

Never mind worrying about sophisticated cell phone interceptiopn, or tracking a person by cell phone...

[incrdbil]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

you know, the real world equipment could be be a lot of fun, if used with stuff like unluck.

 

PC calls for help from a contact,world famous demolitions expert.

 

What the expert says: "Ok, everything will be ok. Just make sure you don't cut the blue wire first, or it will explode in your face ."

 

What thr PC hears "Ok, everything will be ok. Just make sure you ..... cut the blue wire first, or it will explode in your face."

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Do you require every character who has a Focus to purchase all the skills and perks logically required to operate, maintain and replace thier foci as well? I would include Weapon Familiarities in this - sure, it's a magic sword, but you must know how to wield a sword in order to use it properly, even though the rules say you don't have to pay for the ability to use purchased foci, right?

 

Maybe one reason the character IS poor is the cost of maintaining the armor. Ankylosaur must need to hire individuals who have the skills and ability to repair his armor, and fund any parts replacements, in order to keep the thing going. That sucks up a lot of bank robbery proceeds. If Ankylosaur buys Wealth, that means (or should mean) he has wealth for purposes other than maintaining items, perks, etc. that he has paid points for.

 

 

Yep. I sure do require it.Obviously not with stuff like magic items but with logical stuff that you take the "real whatever" limitation with. Fortunately since my group is like minded and has two braincells to rub together I've never have to actually enforce that. In fact they often go overboard with "tech" limitations and staying within slightly improved game tech level. Its really cool actually! I also require technological armor to take "real armor" and not be carried in briefcases. To you it may seem restrictive I suppose, but with us it makes my group and me believe in the world more.

By all means Ankylosaur could function as you say. That is until he was captured once then if he gets the armor again , my players suspension of belief is broken. he's much more enduring and interesting my way IMO. I guess it really depends on the feel of your game and what works for everybody.

Wealth is great for dodging those pesky real world clogs in life and I let the players use it as such.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Yep. I sure do require it.Obviously not with stuff like magic items

 

Why should it be any easier to keep the spells fresh and maintained than to keep high tech equipment fresh and maintained? For that matter, should every mutant power require an explanation of how this could possibly function, biologically? I suspect very few could pass a rigorous scientific review.

 

but with logical stuff that you take the "real whatever" limitation with.

 

Emphasis mine. Tacking on the "real whatever" limitation means selling off the realism waiver that normally accompanies comic book physics. At that point, I think it's quite reasonable to say that the character needs all of the real world abilities to maintain that device.

 

Fortunately since my group is like minded and has two braincells to rub together I've never have to actually enforce that. In fact they often go overboard with "tech" limitations and staying within slightly improved game tech level. Its really cool actually! I also require technological armor to take "real armor" and not be carried in briefcases. To you it may seem restrictive I suppose, but with us it makes my group and me believe in the world more.

By all means Ankylosaur could function as you say. That is until he was captured once then if he gets the armor again , my players suspension of belief is broken. he's much more enduring and interesting my way IMO.

 

When he's fresh out of jail, where does the money to rebuild the armor come from? When all your assets are frozen as proceeds of crime, how do you get good legal assistance, or are most supervillains represented by the Public Defender?

 

My issue with requiring wealth, skills, etc. on certain backgrounds and abilities is that it effectively imposes a "tech tax". In addition to paying the points for your high tech armor, you must also spend 10 points on Wealth and 25 points on tech skills, perks (like access to appropriate facilities to do the work), etc. Oh, it's MAGICAL? That's different - you're tech tax-exempt. Exact same ability. Exact same game benefits. But one imposes costs the other does not. To me, that violates the SFX neutrality which is a hallmark of the Hero system.

 

I guess it really depends on the feel of your game and what works for everybody.

 

Absolutely. I'm curious, however, what proportion of your players now play tech characters rather than mages, mutants or anyone else who doesn't have to pay the "tech tax". It's no biggie for NPC's like Ankylosaur, who can get the extra points as free xp, but it is an issue for PC's.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

 

Absolutely. I'm curious, however, what proportion of your players now play tech characters rather than mages, mutants or anyone else who doesn't have to pay the "tech tax". It's no biggie for NPC's like Ankylosaur, who can get the extra points as free xp, but it is an issue for PC's.

 

 

my players all have several characters they rotate and each one does have a "tech" character.

Wizard's have a pretty strenuous limits too with a magic system that my wife, the other players and I brainstormed, kind of ported over from our long running homebrew fantasy game. My wife has two super spellcasters she plays regularly and one kind of wizard/spy. One uses a variant although approved and compatible spell system. She also plays an Irish Fairie lass who uses powered armor which has the tech limitations.

You also need to understand we all worked these parameters for characters out together although I ended up doing the number crunching. Its all good and lets us laugh at how Tony Stark used to put his armor in a briefcase while The player is "launching Skymaster" from his mobile truck unit. You can also bet he's going to use his "tech tax" skills,as you put it , plenty. ( Skymaster actually isn't wealthy as his money is tied up in maintaining etc his suit).

If Ankylosaur can make a new kickbut suit of armor with his talents then he should have no trouble with backers, just a few stings attached. if he stole it , he's done.

When its said and done we're more concerned with a world we can believe in and thus become attached to more than SFX neutrality. Its worked for us since the mid 80s when we first played this world with only minor tweaks as we change editions or we get older and sensibilities change.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I disagree that most characters should. Perhaps most hero characters should' date=' but there are precedents for not. Cavalier from [b']San Angelo[/b] received his from the USAF, Doc Sonic from the Protectors either stole hers, as did many villains (Armadillo and Anklyosaur come to mind), or the Huntsman paid for it.

 

Having stated that, Cavalier with 6pts of wealth and Defender with 10 pts of wealth show how lower amounts of wealth can still be prudent without nitpicking to the point where players feel the need to purchase 15 points to avoid hassling with a less-than-ideal GM.

 

YMMV.

 

Maybe Defender HAD 15 points of Wealth, but after financing his super suit, 10 points of Wealth is all he has left.

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Maybe Defender HAD 15 points of Wealth' date=' but after financing his super suit, 10 points of Wealth is all he has left.[/quote']That seems highly unlikely.* As a GM, you could state it as you wish, but it seems that to go from a typical multi-billionare (15 pts) to a typical millionaire just because of a suit seems drastic. And that would be something noticed by Forbes.

 

*Even more unlikely than spear-weilding Ewoks defeating the Emperor's greatest Legion and Vader building C-3PO.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Maybe Defender HAD 15 points of Wealth' date=' but after financing his super suit, 10 points of Wealth is all he has left.[/quote']

 

As a GM' date=' you could state it as you wish, but it seems that to go from a typical multi-billionare (15 pts) to a typical millionaire just because of a suit seems drastic.[/quote']

 

Only because there's no granularity, no levels of Wealth between 10 points ($5 million income, so multi-millionaire) and 15 points (multi-billionaire). Apparently, there are no simple billionaires in the Hero system.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I go by the idea that what is on the sheet is a request from the Player to the GM, and the more points, the more the Player is asking me as the GM to make that item part of the game.

 

A player who sinks 15 points into wealth is asking for his character's wealth to serve as a major game element, showing up about as often as five base level skills. If I don't want it to be that much of an element in the game, as GM I'm obligated to tell the Player he's wasting his points and give him a chance to spend them on something else. If I allow him to spend those points that way, and don't warn him that I won't give him much screen time related to his wealth, then as GM I've agreed to let him make those 15 points count in the game.

 

I'd have no problem with him using Wealth to justify getting into exclusive parties, clubs, or political fund raisers. Since he hasn't paid for contacts, people he meets this way are effectively everyman contacts justified by his wealth, and are fully under my control as GM; if he'd paid points for a contact, he'd be justified in expecting more control.

 

The same goes for mansions, fast cars, private planes, etc, etc. If he justifies having these through wealth, but doesn't spend the points, I as GM control them completely, and can remove them or turn them into liabilities, or not, as suits me. If the Player had spent points on them, while I as GM could still manipulate them in negative ways, he would be justified in expecting them to be mostly reliable and more under his control.

 

High tech weapons and gear are established as costing points in most Supers games, and wealth does not allow an end run around this. However, as a GM I might allow a wealthy character to purchase (for example) a piece of high tech if it furthered the plot; if he didn't pay points for it, I as GM could have it fail or backfire at the worst possible moment, or not, as I liked. If he paid points, while I could still screw with his equipment, he'd be justified in expecting it to mostly work.

 

Some things in some campaigns will require the right contacts and other skills no matter how much wealth you have; GMs call as to what those things are.

 

Basically the same for me. Ill even go so far as to say Wealth points effectively buy a character "hand wave latitude" for mundane details. The more wealth, the more things get hand waved. A 15 Wealth character basically never has to deal w/ mundane crap unless they want to or it forwards the plot.

 

 

Some people I've gamed with have had some pretty odd ideas about what rich people can do, however. Regardless of anything else, Wealth does not grant a license to destroy the plot or warp reality -- there are some things that money just can't buy, and some other things take time even if you are grossly rich.

 

For instance I once had a player that became irate when he couldn't buy an spaceship with 15 points of wealth in an action / adventure game set in a faux-70's era with a ~sploitation movie shtick -- kind of a Starsky & Hutch tone. Not only was the game not even remotely about space travel, such technology was very rudimentary and government controlled in context -- just didn't fit on a lot of levels. Sorry, but no. Things like that just ain't gonna fly, ya dig?

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Our four Dark Champions characters use pre-paid cell phones to keep in contact with each other and have to be very careful how they use them. Similarly' date=' they use an off-the-shelf police-band radio to monitor the local PD (and it's not mobile).[/quote']

 

I remember running into this problem when I was running the Knightshift Stories campaign. For the most part, though, it was convenient for me (the GM) for the characters to have these toys. Nothing moves a DC:TAS plotline along like a call on the batpho -- er, celphone to get the characters headed toward the scene of the crime. I'm of the opinion that if they're not gaining a significant tactical advantage with their store-bought toys, then I really don't care if they pay points for them or not. It's when they're using them to short-circuit my adventures, that's when I start getting snippy about what they have, where they carry it and what I can do to level the playing field again...

 

Of course, all of the characters had pay-as-you-go celphones as well, though Rhonda "Powerhouse" Savage had a blind voicemail box that she accessed from the pre-paid celphone for added security. I suppose thouroughly modern dark champions will employ internet phone service with encrypted voice-mail boxes to keep their secret identities to themselves.

 

Matt "The-future-is-always-coming-at-you-but-you-only-notice-when-it-runs-you-down" Frisbee

[Houston GM]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

It brings up an interesting issue, "what does that 15 pts. buy you?"

 

In most games, extreme wealth seems to buy, first class air tickets anywhere commercially available. And settle the occasional law suit with the players get sloppy.

 

Out of curiousity what do you allow your stinking rich players to get for their 15 pts.?

In the campaign I GM, it gets you a few useful things:

 

1) It gets you access to wealthy, famous, powerful and/or political people. You still have to use skills (conversation, high society, persuasion, etc.) to make use of that access, but you get your foot in the door automatically.

 

2) You can hire people. Why pay a lawsuit when you can hire a fleet of lawyers to fight it? You can hire accountants (who can decipher the financial data you recovered from a criminal enterprise). You can hire private investigators to follow suspects and photograph any interesting/suspicious/illegal behavior they witness. You can also hire people to do things that are illegal....

 

3) You get bonuses to your Bribery skill. You sometimes get bonuses to other skills (like Seduction).

 

4) So you wrapped your convertible around Ogre and Pulsar blew up your penthouse apartment? No big deal. It's trivial to get a new apartment and a new car.

[Mentor]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I go by the idea that what is on the sheet is a request from the Player to the GM, and the more points, the more the Player is asking me as the GM to make that item part of the game.

 

A player who sinks 15 points into wealth is asking for his character's wealth to serve as a major game element, showing up about as often as five base level skills. If I don't want it to be that much of an element in the game, as GM I'm obligated to tell the Player he's wasting his points and give him a chance to spend them on something else. If I allow him to spend those points that way, and don't warn him that I won't give him much screen time related to his wealth, then as GM I've agreed to let him make those 15 points count in the game.

 

I'd have no problem with him using Wealth to justify getting into exclusive parties, clubs, or political fund raisers. Since he hasn't paid for contacts, people he meets this way are effectively everyman contacts justified by his wealth, and are fully under my control as GM; if he'd paid points for a contact, he'd be justified in expecting more control.

 

The same goes for mansions, fast cars, private planes, etc, etc. If he justifies having these through wealth, but doesn't spend the points, I as GM control them completely, and can remove them or turn them into liabilities, or not, as suits me. If the Player had spent points on them, while I as GM could still manipulate them in negative ways, he would be justified in expecting them to be mostly reliable and more under his control.

 

High tech weapons and gear are established as costing points in most Supers games, and wealth does not allow an end run around this. However, as a GM I might allow a wealthy character to purchase (for example) a piece of high tech if it furthered the plot; if he didn't pay points for it, I as GM could have it fail or backfire at the worst possible moment, or not, as I liked. If he paid points, while I could still screw with his equipment, he'd be justified in expecting it to mostly work.

 

Some things in some campaigns will require the right contacts and other skills no matter how much wealth you have; GMs call as to what those things are.

Exactly so. My billionaire PC, Cyberknight, is expected to be invited to the high fallootin' affairs during which the the mayor's daughter is to be kidnapped, the Hopeless Diamond is being worn by the Sultan of Swing and the Matter Transmogrifier is being demonstrated by Professor Squid for his financial backer.

 

One might as easily ask if the PC is getting Disads without the points as well as are they getting something extra for the money. The answer is that the character gets the good and the bad that comes with (hopefully) solid character concept.