Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

[Kirby]

Are you tired of your GM whining about the number of PCs with 15 points of wealth in the campaign you play in? Does he require you to have wealth to justify your charcter concept and complain when you take 15 points? Has he tried telling you there aren't that many rich people in the world? Tell him Ptttht!

 

There are 482 billionaires in the US alone![/b]!l

NEW YORK - A billion dollars just doesn't go as far as it used to. For the first time, it takes more than $1 billion to earn a spot on Forbes magazine's list of the 400 richest Americans. The minimum net worth for inclusion in this year's rankings released Thursday was $1.3 billion, up $300 million from last year.

 

The new threshold meant 82 of America's billionaires didn't make the cut.

 

[More]

Link to full story.

 

 

 

 

 

I can see a good GM with a good sense of humor having a conversation with his player now.

 

Player: You don't have a problem with me having 15 points of wealth? I've always wanted to play a billionaire.

 

GM: No, that's fine. We can start the game out with you having earned your first billion in net worth.

 

Player: Woohoo! Yea! Now I'm one of the richest in the world!

 

GM: Actually, you're not even in the top 400 of the U.S., much less the world.

 

Player: Wow, really?

 

GM: Yep. Maybe in a few years you can make the list.

 

Player: But I can still have my $50 mil mega yacht?

 

GM: Sure.

 

Player: And my $15 mil private plane?

 

GM: Absolutely.

 

Player: Sweeet!

[Balabanto]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

That's fairly creepy. So much for my gaming philosophy.Oh, wait, I stock market crashed my game. So it still has SOME validity.

[Psylint]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

It brings up an interesting issue, "what does that 15 pts. buy you?"

 

In most games, extreme wealth seems to buy, first class air tickets anywhere commercially available. And settle the occasional law suit with the players get sloppy.

 

Out of curiousity what do you allow your stinking rich players to get for their 15 pts.?

 

1. High tech weapons?

2. Summers in the Lincoln bedroom?

3. Super cool, high tech, ultra hidden super base?

4. Surplus fighter jets complete with Side Winder missiles?

 

In game terms 15pts. is a significant investment, so what kind of return are these captains of industry getting?

 

Peace

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Out of curiousity what do you allow your stinking rich players to get for their 15 pts.?

 

In game terms 15pts. is a significant investment, so what kind of return are these captains of industry getting?

 

They're getting the convenience of not having a serious job and the ability to actively pursue their passions (caped or otherwise). They get the right to rub elbows with the movers and shakers of the world since they have enough money to buy into the system. Essentially, that 15 points opens doors for them that are closed to most of the rest of the world -- a billionaire can get an appointment to see the President while you and I wouldn't have a ghost of chance.

 

If they want any useful gadgets or things, they pay points for them in my campaign. Typically, they buy a VPP gadget pool (limited to real world gadgets) which they can change up periodically to reflect their changing tastes. Wealth is not carte blanche (?) to abuse the rules -- it is a perk that gives the character certain advantages, and that's all. A smart GM knows how to impose limits and makes sure to ask a player what he intends to do with perk before authorizing the character.

 

Most of my games have the stipulation that wealth can only be purchased with experience points -- that way, the character can roleplay the climb up the corporate ladder (or whatever means he obtains wealth) and the see the results (and pay the personal price) of becoming a "self-made billionaire."

 

I usually dodged the whole wealth issue with my characters by purchasing five points of wealth with ten character points and stipulating that it is an annual lottery payout, so I don't actually have to work for a living, if I don't want to. The characters weren't rich, but their lives were their own (allowing for Out of Hero ID adventuring as well).

 

Matt "Kinda-pragmatic" Frisbee

[Trebuchet]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

We have a PC, Cyberknight, with 15 points of Wealth in our game. He's semi-retired now, but it was never a problem in the campaign. Our team was already secretly funded by an international philanthropic organization, so it was already providing private jets (one of which was shot down) and a 35-meter yacht for the team. In truth, his player (Mentor) primarily bought 15 points of Wealth because he felt he was essentially getting the benefits of it and thought he might as well buy it.

 

Really, what's the problem with 15 pts. of Wealth in a well-run campaign? Seems to me it just provides another excellent plot hook for that particular character. Billionaires or their families can get kidnapped or otherwise extorted. They're hit up for charitable donations (legit and bogus). They can have attacks made on their financial empire. They're always expected to pay for lunch.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

We have a PC, Cyberknight, with 15 points of Wealth in our game. He's semi-retired now, but it was never a problem in the campaign. Our team was already secretly funded by an international philanthropic organization, so it was already providing private jets (one of which was shot down) and a 35-meter yacht for the team. In truth, his player (Mentor) primarily bought 15 points of Wealth because he felt he was essentially getting the benefits of it and thought he might as well buy it.

 

Really, what's the problem with 15 pts. of Wealth in a well-run campaign? Seems to me it just provides another excellent plot hook for that particular character. Billionaires or their families can get kidnapped or otherwise extorted. They're hit up for charitable donations (legit and bogus). They can have attacks made on their financial empire. They're always expected to pay for lunch.

 

Their granddaughters make sex tapes that get passed around the Internet, and then go on to plumb the depths of self-inflicted laughingstockhood.

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Hmm, I can't tell if you're using rhetoric or asking earnestly, so I'll respond as if the latter.

It brings up an interesting issue' date=' "what does that 15 pts. buy you?"[/quote']Anything approved by the GM that character points don't pay for.

 

In most games' date=' extreme wealth seems to buy, first class air tickets anywhere commercially available. And settle the occasional law suit with the players get sloppy.[/quote']It only takes 1 pt of wealth in my games to buy first class tickets. As for lawsuits, I've never had a PC in the game get sued (no PC has ever been that "sloppy"), so I've never crossed that bridge.

 

Out of curiousity what do you allow your stinking rich players to get for their 15 pts.?

 

1. High tech weapons?

Nope. They must use CPs to purchase those. UNLESS it's a collector's item, but then they still don't get to use it in game.

 

2. Summers in the Lincoln bedroom?

Nope, having the right Contacts would apply here (though I've never even been in a game where the PCs were ever at the White House, much less stayed over).

 

3. Super cool' date=' high tech, ultra hidden super base?[/quote']No. Again, this is something points pay for.

 

4. Surplus fighter jets complete with Side Winder missiles?

There have been PCs that have had a comic-book modified Stealth Bomber which sat eight people (absolutely no weapons) which was used to get us from the campaign city (Point A) to the master villain's secret hideout in the Pacific Ocean (Point and back again. But that was it.

 

And there are laws against selling military missiles to your average Joe millionaire. (Though powered armored PCs and all that....)

 

In game terms 15pts. is a significant investment' date=' so what kind of return are these captains of industry getting?[/quote']Generally not having to worry about work. That seems to be the main reason. Having your super hero stuck bagging groceries for a little old lady when super-crime keeps happening during daylight hours stinks.

 

Additionally, 15 pts of wealth is akin to complimentary background skills. It generally adds flavor to the character.

 

When I was in my first HERO (Champions, back then) gaming group, there were at one time 9 of us gaming (later 6), but out of that 9 only two had 15 points of wealth (this was when it was either 5, 10, or 15). One of my PCs (I went through 3 in that game) had 5 points of wealth and worked as head of security for one of the PCs who had 15 points.

 

In my experience, wealth only becomes a problem when the GM makes it a problem. IME, I've never known an issue of wealth being abused by a PC unless the GM had begun to ruin that aspect of the game.

 

YMMV.

[OddHat]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I go by the idea that what is on the sheet is a request from the Player to the GM, and the more points, the more the Player is asking me as the GM to make that item part of the game.

 

A player who sinks 15 points into wealth is asking for his character's wealth to serve as a major game element, showing up about as often as five base level skills. If I don't want it to be that much of an element in the game, as GM I'm obligated to tell the Player he's wasting his points and give him a chance to spend them on something else. If I allow him to spend those points that way, and don't warn him that I won't give him much screen time related to his wealth, then as GM I've agreed to let him make those 15 points count in the game.

 

I'd have no problem with him using Wealth to justify getting into exclusive parties, clubs, or political fund raisers. Since he hasn't paid for contacts, people he meets this way are effectively everyman contacts justified by his wealth, and are fully under my control as GM; if he'd paid points for a contact, he'd be justified in expecting more control.

 

The same goes for mansions, fast cars, private planes, etc, etc. If he justifies having these through wealth, but doesn't spend the points, I as GM control them completely, and can remove them or turn them into liabilities, or not, as suits me. If the Player had spent points on them, while I as GM could still manipulate them in negative ways, he would be justified in expecting them to be mostly reliable and more under his control.

 

High tech weapons and gear are established as costing points in most Supers games, and wealth does not allow an end run around this. However, as a GM I might allow a wealthy character to purchase (for example) a piece of high tech if it furthered the plot; if he didn't pay points for it, I as GM could have it fail or backfire at the worst possible moment, or not, as I liked. If he paid points, while I could still screw with his equipment, he'd be justified in expecting it to mostly work.

 

Some things in some campaigns will require the right contacts and other skills no matter how much wealth you have; GMs call as to what those things are.

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

The same goes for mansions' date=' fast cars, private planes, etc, etc. If he justifies having these through wealth, but doesn't spend the points, I as GM control them completely, and can remove them or turn them into liabilities, or not, as suits me. If the Player had spent points on them, while I as GM could still manipulate them in negative ways, he would be justified in expecting them to be mostly reliable and more under his control.[/quote']Very good points there, OddHat. On this one in particular, I tend to use quite often. With the exception of Poor or Destitute, I tend to let PCs have whatever vehicle or home is appropriate (obviously Middle Class Joe isn't going to own a mansion and drive Jaguars to his private plane and so forth).

 

I tell them that they can have these cars, but that *anything* can happen to them, such as getting blown up or damaged in a supers fight, stolen, etc.

 

This has only happened a few times (and when pertained to the situation at hand; I've never had a PC's house destroyed by a rogue missile/villain/meteor while he was on patrol, fighting crime, or working), and it just takes a few days for a new vehicle to arrive.

 

I had one PC who wanted a Suzuki Hayabusa, which happens to be in the HS Vehicle Sourcebook, so I gave him the speed of the item (4 SPD, 17/132), but didn't provide the Stats for it, such as the Superb Handling (+3 w/Ground movement). When he used it for a move-by, it was badly damaged.

 

On the flip side, I've had a PC pay points for a motorcycle. The STR added for move-throughs that he used with it and the bonus handling came in handy more than a few times when he "cut corners" in order to get from A to B.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

A wealthy character can bankroll the team, ala Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark (not to mention Doc Savage). It also answers the question: Where does he get those wonderful toys?

[Balabanto]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Yeah, most armored characters should have a chunk of wealth.

[Kirby]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Yeah' date=' most armored characters should have a chunk of wealth.[/quote']I disagree that most characters should. Perhaps most hero characters should, but there are precedents for not. Cavalier from San Angelo received his from the USAF, Doc Sonic from the Protectors either stole hers, as did many villains (Armadillo and Anklyosaur come to mind), or the Huntsman paid for it.

 

Having stated that, Cavalier with 6pts of wealth and Defender with 10 pts of wealth show how lower amounts of wealth can still be prudent without nitpicking to the point where players feel the need to purchase 15 points to avoid hassling with a less-than-ideal GM.

 

YMMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Yeah' date=' most armored characters should have a chunk of wealth.[/quote']

 

Yup.

 

And most bricks should be slow and dumb.

 

Oh, and Energy Projectors should generally be hotheads.

 

Speedsters should pretty much always be impatient, and have low attacks.

 

Martial Artists should generally be skillmongers, and internally contemplative.

 

Come to think of it, what we really need are archetypes to govern what each type of character should have, and should not have. Maybe we could call them "Careers"? No, too mundane. Archetypes? Tooo overarching. I know - we can call them Classes!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Yup.

 

And most bricks should be slow and dumb.

 

Oh, and Energy Projectors should generally be hotheads.

 

Speedsters should pretty much always be impatient, and have low attacks.

 

Martial Artists should generally be skillmongers, and internally contemplative.

 

Come to think of it, what we really need are archetypes to govern what each type of character should have, and should not have. Maybe we could call them "Careers"? No, too mundane. Archetypes? Tooo overarching. I know - we can call them Classes!

 

 

 

Asserbic humor aside. I never really could believe in the power armor characters that stole their armor and maintained it indefinitely . The first time the armor was majorly trashed it would be all over. One time captured and its all over etc. I agree the character should either be able to afford to maintain it either by themselves or though another and either he or a patron should have the relevant skills. Any champions characters like Ankylosaur i use I rewrite to reflect this. If someone can make a poor power armor guy work logically that's great, but I won't throw logic out the window just to thwart cliches

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Asserbic humor aside. I never really could believe in the power armor characters that stole their armor and maintained it indefinitely . The first time the armor was majorly trashed it would be all over. One time captured and its all over etc. I agree the character should either be able to afford to maintain it either by themselves or though another and either he or a patron should have the relevant skills. Any champions characters like Ankylosaur i use I rewrite to reflect this. If someone can make a poor power armor guy work logically that's great' date=' but I won't throw logic out the window just to thwart cliches[/quote']

 

In the comics, guys like that don't have very long careers, but the suit will go through a number of different owners, if it's not destroyed. I suppose if one guy is skilled enough in its use, there will be patrons willing to bust him out of jail and pay to maintain the suit.

[Cygnia]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I had a concept for an immortal character (only about 150 years old or so) who was going to have about 2 points of Wealth, representing (hopefully) smart handling of finances throughout the years. Not multi-millionaire status by any stretch of the imagination, but enough to live comfortable on...and enough to help fund identity changes and covering of tracks when needed every couple of decades or so.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Asserbic humor aside. I never really could believe in the power armor characters that stole their armor and maintained it indefinitely . The first time the armor was majorly trashed it would be all over. One time captured and its all over etc. I agree the character should either be able to afford to maintain it either by themselves or though another and either he or a patron should have the relevant skills. Any champions characters like Ankylosaur i use I rewrite to reflect this. If someone can make a poor power armor guy work logically that's great' date=' but I won't throw logic out the window just to thwart cliches[/quote']

 

Do you require every character who has a Focus to purchase all the skills and perks logically required to operate, maintain and replace thier foci as well? I would include Weapon Familiarities in this - sure, it's a magic sword, but you must know how to wield a sword in order to use it properly, even though the rules say you don't have to pay for the ability to use purchased foci, right?

 

Maybe one reason the character IS poor is the cost of maintaining the armor. Ankylosaur must need to hire individuals who have the skills and ability to repair his armor, and fund any parts replacements, in order to keep the thing going. That sucks up a lot of bank robbery proceeds. If Ankylosaur buys Wealth, that means (or should mean) he has wealth for purposes other than maintaining items, perks, etc. that he has paid points for.

 

One of the great comic book illogics is the vast number of tech characters whose tech, patented and marketed, should eliminate any need to rob banks and/or whose ongoing research and maintenance costs should outstrip the proceeds of any crime. They're like D&D characters continually moving between the Dungeon (where they kill for wealth to pay for all their equipment) and town (where they buy equipment to enhance their ability to kill things in the dungeon).

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

My thinking on this has varied over time, and comes with a caveat: At this point, I don't think any player character in my games has gone the full 15-point route, but I believe one or two past characters have had 10 points of Wealth.

 

IMO, Wealth can buy you some vehicles / equipment that you might otherwise pay points for, but (1) it has to be commercially and legally available (so no buying a stealth jet or such), and (2) it is by default less durable than point-paid stuff (any may not even be 100% reliable). Basically, it all comes with the Real Equipment and Requires Periodic Maintenance limitations.

 

15 points is a nice sum, so a character with that amount of Wealth should get comparable benefit from it. I'd think of it kinda like a 10-point special* VPP (restricted Powers and Perks available, Real Equipment limitation on Powers and Cramming-type limitation on Perks, etc., plus a potential Limitation described below). You could "buy" a temporary Contact, but it would be restricted (kinda like using Cramming to learn a language).

 

*Special in that Active Points can exceed 10 points, and that Perks are available, and that Perks can have Limitations on them, such as...

 

The entire thing comes with a variable-value "The More You Use At Once, The More Likely The GM May Mess With You" limitation. Basically, you have a 10-pound sack. You can try and cram 15 or 20 pounds into it, but you might split a seam or two if you try.

 

So if you're using your Wealth to fly to Paris on your private Lear jet (Vehicle) with a supermodel /pop star (Contact) on your arm to get into an exclusive club (Membership) to look for ways into the supervillain lair beneath, that's cool by me. But if you *also* want to supply all of your teammates with state-of-the art radios (HRR), low-light gear (IR), and cutting-edge lockpicks and alarm-bypass gear (+2 with Lockpicking and Security Systems, respectively)... well, just think about how many Limitations you'd need to get the Real Points of all of that low enough to add up to 10 points.

[incrdbil]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

At the 15 point level of Wealth, it can, wel, perhaps not substitute for a contact, but it sure can put you in 'contact' with people.

 

Political contributions can influence Government relatiosn for the team; using wealth to get into a luxurious, exclusive resort where Villain X supposedly is oon vacation, or easily allowing you a reason to socialize with the wealthy guy supposedly laundering money for an arch villain. Simply put, money talks. Poor heroes have to sneak intoi the resort, or exclusive party. Poor Heroes miht only get to talk to the senators assistant..or the assistant to the assistant..in a few weeks (roleplay can make up fr that, but a friendly introduction in the form of cold hard cash will always get a politicians interest). Do you need to fund your own witness relcation program, because you dont trust the government? Talk to the rich guy.

 

Still, money osnt as durable as a contact. Maybe you can buy some influence..but there's no way to guarantee someone doesnt outbide that influence, or you don't get doubel crossed.

 

 

 

Depending on the 'social' setting of th heroes, 15 points of wealth, as written in the book, may be more effective, or less, based on how the GM allows that level of wealth to be.

 

Now, take soeone with 15 points of wealth AND a lot of contacts--there is someone who can get things done in a hurry.

Rih guy calling assitant

"Hello--book me a meeting with the UN Security council. Tell the President to do it pronto. We're going to give a sanctuary on this world to the humanod slave race I just freed. I'll be buying an island or two for them and helping them get established. Yes, I know the Pure Human lobby will be upset, so I'm launching an all network and media advertising blitz on the poor plight of these folks. Call my friend in Hollywood and we'll book them a lot of interviews on the best shows. I'll buy some ad time to sweten the deal."

[Balabanto]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Ironically, the radios thing I don't mind so much as long as it's understood that if the wealthy guy buys the radio, one of the two people involved has to pay the points for it as soon as they get enough XP to do so.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I'm fine with Wealth buying off-the-shelf gear - so long as the players understand that there are some things money simply can't buy, and what can be bought with money will never be as reliable and/or effective as gear purchased with character points.

 

Cell phone bought with cash? Jaguar XJS? No problem.

 

Hyper-scrambled communicator? Stealth transport? Spend points.

[Psylint]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Interesting...

 

As far as the power armored poor guy? How many brilliant scientists and engineers don't have private jets? It's entirely possible for someone to have the technical brilliance to build, maintain and operate power armor and not have the funds to build it from scratch.

 

For the rest? It almost seems like a "favor" variable power pool. Except they "recharge" after the play session.

 

To me 15 pts. is a lot to spend on wealth, but I can't think of many ways that one could use it, that doesn't step on the toes of foci, contacts, favors, and other perqs. I suppose a filthy rich person could have their identity "scrubbed" with enough cash, but they could buy "Anonymity" as a perq.

 

I don't play Filthy Rich folks, except for "concept" purposes, like the rock star/sonic energy projector. But I'm still at a loss as to what it buys other than plane tickets, and lots of replacement insurance for your durable goods.

 

Peace

[OddHat]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

I don't play Filthy Rich folks, except for "concept" purposes, like the rock star/sonic energy projector. But I'm still at a loss as to what it buys other than plane tickets, and lots of replacement insurance for your durable goods.

 

Being "Filthy Rich" buys what you as the GM say it buys, to the degree you allow it. If being Filthy Rich is not going to provide fifteen points worth of utility in your campaign, I'd suggest either repricing it accordingly or informing your players that there's no point in buying it and getting on with the game.

 

As to "Crossover", there's tons of crossover in Hero, and many ways to accomplish almost anything. I have no problem with Wealth being allowed some crossover with other perks, on the understanding that buying those perks directly gives the player more of a say in the matter than trying to get them through wealth.

[OddHat]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Do you require every character who has a Focus to purchase all the skills and perks logically required to operate, maintain and replace thier foci as well? I would include Weapon Familiarities in this - sure, it's a magic sword, but you must know how to wield a sword in order to use it properly, even though the rules say you don't have to pay for the ability to use purchased foci, right?

 

Maybe one reason the character IS poor is the cost of maintaining the armor. Ankylosaur must need to hire individuals who have the skills and ability to repair his armor, and fund any parts replacements, in order to keep the thing going. That sucks up a lot of bank robbery proceeds. If Ankylosaur buys Wealth, that means (or should mean) he has wealth for purposes other than maintaining items, perks, etc. that he has paid points for.

 

One of the great comic book illogics is the vast number of tech characters whose tech, patented and marketed, should eliminate any need to rob banks and/or whose ongoing research and maintenance costs should outstrip the proceeds of any crime. They're like D&D characters continually moving between the Dungeon (where they kill for wealth to pay for all their equipment) and town (where they buy equipment to enhance their ability to kill things in the dungeon).

 

I see the above as a genre simulation issue. In some campaigns, with a "grittier" feel, I do require characters to buy the appropriate skills and sometimes perks to use and maintain their foci; in an intentionally campy campaign I wouldn't bother.

[Psylint]

Re: Fifteen points of wealth is very justifiable

 

Totally agreed Oddhat.

 

Wealth is just one of those "powers" that I lack the wisdom and creativity to use well. And in general, my games just don't deal with cash flow, except as a plot device and that could happen to anyone really. It is a weakness in my game.

 

'preciate all y'all trying to help out. But I think I'm just gonna have to stick with "no point and getting on with the game" until I can wrap my head around it better.

 

Peace