Old School vs. New School

[UpChuck]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Originally Posted by jelloflechette

Oh, and one very specific question: does 1st edition have the "mod the rules however you like" clause?

For my money, any game you're willing to pay for has that clause! It's your time, it's your cash, do what you and your friends want to.

__________________

 

G. Gygax pretty much said the same thing about running a D&D game "...and lastly, If you don't know the answer...make it up" or something along those lines in a DM guide some years ago.

 

I think I will go ahead and take the plunge and buy it. I don't have any players here but hopefully I can find some.

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

G. Gygax pretty much said the same thing about running a D&D game "...and lastly, If you don't know the answer...make it up" or something along those lines in a DM guide some years ago.

 

I think I will go ahead and take the plunge and buy it. I don't have any players here but hopefully I can find some.

 

That's the spirit!

 

One of the best ways to get a game going is to take the bull by the horns. Even if you only have a couple of players, once you get something consistent going, you'll be surprised at how people start showing up.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I have a similar question, but mine's more properly titled "Old Old Old School vs New School". Does anyone here have experience with the original first edition Champions? If so, what are the major differences between it (a 50-some page book, I believe) and either 4th or 5th edition?

 

I'm sure there's differences in the number and details of powers, adv/lim, and disads. My question is more along the lines of whether there are any fundamental differences in mechanics. For example, if there's no vehicle creation rules in 1st edition, or if it lacks detailed rules for movement or perception, or if it uses different dice-rolling mechanics, etc.

 

Oh, and one very specific question: does 1st edition have the "mod the rules however you like" clause?

 

The reason I ask is because if 1st edition is functionally similar to the hero system as we know it today, I'm thinking about picking up a copy. However, if it is significantly less powerful (as far as being able to universally model anything), I'll pass. Anyway, if anyone wouldn't mind sharing their knowledge and experience it would be greatly appreciated.

 

The difference? About 552 pages or so.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I have a similar question, but mine's more properly titled "Old Old Old School vs New School". Does anyone here have experience with the original first edition Champions? If so, what are the major differences between it (a 50-some page book, I believe) and either 4th or 5th edition?

 

I'm sure there's differences in the number and details of powers, adv/lim, and disads. My question is more along the lines of whether there are any fundamental differences in mechanics. For example, if there's no vehicle creation rules in 1st edition, or if it lacks detailed rules for movement or perception, or if it uses different dice-rolling mechanics, etc.

 

Oh, and one very specific question: does 1st edition have the "mod the rules however you like" clause?

 

The reason I ask is because if 1st edition is functionally similar to the hero system as we know it today, I'm thinking about picking up a copy. However, if it is significantly less powerful (as far as being able to universally model anything), I'll pass. Anyway, if anyone wouldn't mind sharing their knowledge and experience it would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Between 3rd ed and 4th ed there were substantial changes in the system.

 

One of the major changes was in 3rd ed, each game was stand alone with minor variations, so the cost of a disad or advantage in Champions might have a different cost in Fantasy Hero. In 4th ed the system became a generic system with a core rule book and separate genre books.

 

Combat had some changes, in the earlier editions range mod was a -1 for each x", so a pistol might have an Rmod of -1 every 3" and a rifle -1 every 5". In 4th ed this was changed to a basic -2 for every doubling of range and Rmod became a + or - vs range.

 

Some modeling of powers changed as well, for example in the early editions a shotgun did 4x / 3x / 2x / 1x 1d6+1 at different ranges. In 4th ed it became 2 1/2d6 with reduced penetration and reduced by range.

 

 

Basically 1-3rd ed is a very similar game but not quite the same as 4th and 5th.

 

5th adds a lot more examples and better explains many of the rules and powers.

[Spence]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Theoretically ... a Genre book provides information for setting up and running (i.e. providing examples, and methods of simulating the tone and flavor) a game. Common conventions, major character types, how it handles specific ideas, what it's meant to feel like. . .

 

I'm not an animated cartoon fan (aside from some Anime) so being unfamiliar with the genre after reading the book I'm still unfamiliar with the genre. This is doubly bad since it has no bibliography.

 

I got the impression that TAS might be like a goofy game of Dark Champions. Or at the very least Adam West Batman, which is just goofy.

 

Understood.

 

For me I don't see the goofy as much as concentrating toward the American animated Batman type shows. But I can certainly see the point of view.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Understood.

 

For me I don't see the goofy as much as concentrating toward the American animated Batman type shows. But I can certainly see the point of view.

 

If you're familiar with the genre it's probably a good resource of ideas. As you've found it to be. But you probably don't *need* a Genre Book to run the game, it just helps.

 

If you're unfamiliar with the genre (the potential target audience of a Genre Book) this one doesn't help at all. Which was too bad.

[Spence]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

If you're familiar with the genre it's probably a good resource of ideas. As you've found it to be. But you probably don't *need* a Genre Book to run the game, it just helps.

 

If you're unfamiliar with the genre (the potential target audience of a Genre Book) this one doesn't help at all. Which was too bad.

 

I can't argue that....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I have a similar question' date=' but mine's more properly titled "Old Old Old School vs New School". Does anyone here have experience with the original first edition Champions? If so, what are the major differences between it (a 50-some page book, I believe) and either 4th or 5th edition?[/quote']

Off the top of my head, and to the best of my recollection...

 

There were no VPPs at all.

EC's were costed a bit differently - buy the most expensive power at full price, and pay half for all the other powers of the same SFX, and they didn't have to all have the same Active Points! This was changed almost immediately in 2nd edition when they realized how potentially unbalanced it is.

Flash was 10 points/d6 and flashed phases instead of segments.

There was no AVLD.

There was no "END Reserve". Instead there was "END Battery" which was a Limitation on a power.

Reduced END was +1/4 and halved the END cost, rounding down, for each level you took. If you got it all the way down to 0, it was automatically Persistant. There was no separate Persistant Advantage.

There was no Drain, Healing, Aid, Absorption, Dispel, Suppress, Transfer, Transform, Summon, Multiform, Duplication, Change Environment, Clairsentience, Damage Reduction, Extra-Dimentional Movement, Images, Mind Link.

A lot of Advantages and Limitations didn't exist, such as Damage Shield, Indirect, and Side Effects.

 

I'm sure there's differences in the number and details of powers, adv/lim, and disads. My question is more along the lines of whether there are any fundamental differences in mechanics. For example, if there's no vehicle creation rules in 1st edition, or if it lacks detailed rules for movement or perception, or if it uses different dice-rolling mechanics, etc.

Non-combat movement worked differently. Increased NC movement was available only for Flight, not for other kinds of movement.

There was no distinction made between Targeting and Non-Targeting senses. All Flashes (and other sense-affecting powers) cost the same regardless of which sense they affected.

There were no Adjustment powers at all.

I don't think there were any rules for Vehicles or Bases or Automata or Computers or Followers, nor any other Perks.

There were no Background Skills - no Languages, PS, KS, SS, etc.

I don't think there were hit locations in the very beginning.

Martial Arts was just a single purchase - You pay points = your STR (or was it half your STR?), and then you have "Martial Arts" which gives you a "Martial Punch", a "Martial Kick", a Martial Dodge, and a Martial Block (IIRC) and that's it. I don't think there was even a Martial Grab! There was no purchasing of individual maneuvers. And you bought increased DCs buy paying your base MA cost again (multiple times if you wish).

There were no Adders.

There were no Normal Characteristic Maxima rules.

 

Dice, dice rolling, dice adding, have always been the same.

 

Oh, and one very specific question: does 1st edition have the "mod the rules however you like" clause?

It probably did. But there were a *lot* of modifications needed if you wanted to do the things mentioned above, and especially if you wanted to run a non-superhero game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Off the top of my head, and to the best of my recollection...

 

There were no VPPs at all.

EC's were costed a bit differently - buy the most expensive power at full price, and pay half for all the other powers of the same SFX, and they didn't have to all have the same Active Points! This was changed almost immediately in 2nd edition when they realized how potentially unbalanced it is.

 

IIRC, you paid double the price of one power and got three of that AP level. In 2nd Ed, the possibility of having more than 3 powers came up, but they still all had the same AP.

 

Flash was 10 points/d6 and flashed phases instead of segments.

 

It was sight only, and was area effect radius by default.

 

There was no AVLD.

There was no "END Reserve". Instead there was "END Battery" which was a Limitation on a power.

Reduced END was +1/4 and halved the END cost, rounding down, for each level you took. If you got it all the way down to 0, it was automatically Persistant. There was no separate Persistant Advantage.

There was no Drain, Healing, Aid, Absorption, Dispel, Suppress, Transfer, Transform, Summon, Multiform, Duplication, Change Environment, Clairsentience, Damage Reduction, Extra-Dimentional Movement, Images, Mind Link.

 

There was Drain and Transfer. They were the only precursors of Adjustment Powers. They worked only on characteristics, and were defended by Characteristic Defense.

 

A lot of Advantages and Limitations didn't exist' date=' such as Damage Shield, Indirect, and Side Effects.[/quote']

 

HKA's added full STR without limit. Many characters had a 60 STR and a 1d6 KA which became 5d6 with STR.

 

Energy Blasts could not be spread.

 

Non-combat movement worked differently. Increased NC movement was available only for Flight' date=' not for other kinds of movement.[/quote']

 

IIRC, all movement doubled in NCM except flight, which had an exponential progression depending on how much you had purchased.

 

There was no distinction made between Targeting and Non-Targeting senses. All Flashes (and other sense-affecting powers) cost the same regardless of which sense they affected.

 

They only affected sight so it didn't matter.

 

There were no Adjustment powers at all.

 

There was drain and transfer.

 

I don't think there were any rules for Vehicles or Bases or Automata or Computers or Followers, nor any other Perks.

There were no Background Skills - no Languages, PS, KS, SS, etc.

I don't think there were hit locations in the very beginning.

 

All match my recollection

 

Martial Arts was just a single purchase - You pay points = your STR (or was it half your STR?)' date=' and then you have "Martial Arts" which gives you a "Martial Punch", a "Martial Kick", a Martial Dodge, and a Martial Block (IIRC) and that's it. I don't think there was even a Martial Grab! There was no purchasing of individual maneuvers. And you bought increased DCs buy paying your base MA cost again (multiple times if you wish).[/quote']

 

I believe you paid STR to have MA. Damage was multiplied, not added. An extra 1/2 your STR in points bumped your damage multiples by 1/2. I believe there was a Martial Grab (I seem to recall 5 maneuvers).

 

There were no Adders.

There were no Normal Characteristic Maxima rules.

 

Armor cost 5/3 points' defenses. Damage Resistance came in two vaireties - 1/2 for 15 points (1/2 PD and ED became resistant) and Full (all PD and ED became resistant).

 

Life Support was purchased in stages - if you wanted the higher levels, you needed to buy the lower levels.

 

Objects had BOD, but no Defenses.

 

Desolid was purchased at 5 points/1 BOD you could pass through in a phase.

 

Disadvantages were unlimited, but the first two of any type gained you full points, the next 2 gained half points, then 1/4, 1/8, etc.

 

Dice' date=' dice rolling, dice adding, have always been the same.[/quote']

 

And it was Champions - no expectation of anything other than a Supers game.

[JmOz]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

It was a martial throw, that is where "Generic Martial Arts" package comes from...

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I seem to remember Duplication & VPPPs coming along in the Champions III book.

 

BTW--How are the early editions tracked? Original Rules = 1st ed., Champions II =2nd ed., etc.?

 

No one ever spoke of different editions when it was just the core rules along with Champions II & III. Those always felt like extensions of the original rules.

[JmOz]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I seem to remember Duplication & VPPPs coming along in the Champions III book.

 

BTW--How are the early editions tracked? Original Rules = 1st ed., Champions II =2nd ed., etc.?

 

No one ever spoke of different editions when it was just the core rules along with Champions II & III. Those always felt like extensions of the original rules.

 

For me, take it with a grain of salt as I came in under 4th

 

1st edition, only 2-3 books were made for this edition

 

2nd, 2.2, 2.3, 2nd edition rulesbooks, plus the two expansions (Champions II, Champions III)

 

3rd edition

 

4th

 

5th

 

5er

[jelloflechette]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Phil and Hugh, thanks for the detailed info; that's exactly what I was looking for!

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

For me, take it with a grain of salt as I came in under 4th

 

1st edition, only 2-3 books were made for this edition

 

2nd, 2.2, 2.3, 2nd edition rulesbooks, plus the two expansions (Champions II, Champions III)

 

3rd edition

 

4th

 

5th

 

5er

 

Thanks...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I seem to remember Duplication & VPPPs coming along in the Champions III book.

I think that's about right, although VPPs were called "Gadget Pools" back then - and that was all you could use them for at the time.

 

No one ever spoke of different editions when it was just the core rules along with Champions II & III. Those always felt like extensions of the original rules.

Yes, it tooka while for RPG companies to figure out that gradual changes to the rules would be needed and different editions would matter, like different versions of software. Champions editions 1-3 (including Champs II and Champs III) were really intended to be the same game, even though changes were made, they were intended to not be separate from each other. 4th edition was the first that was intended to compile and clean up all the rules (and include all genres), straightforwardly stating that these were now the official rules, overriding those in previous editions.

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Ah, the Gadget Pool...

 

Thanks for weighing in on the Edition question, too. I was starting to think I'd missed something along the way!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

And if you have the books the way to tell at a glance first from second:

 

Lower right hand corner of the cover - if it says:

A HERO GAME - 1st ed

HERO GAMES with a figure - 2nd ed.

 

Copyrights 81 and 82 respectively

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

I think that's about right, although VPPs were called "Gadget Pools" back then - and that was all you could use them for at the time.

 

 

Gadget Points were in Champs II

Variable Power Pools were in CHamps III

 

Speaks the man with the editions at his fingertips.

I have all the editions, plus the expansions on the bookshelf on my desk.

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Yeah, seems like I saw an Enemies book that proclaimed itself as second edition?

 

Man, now I'm getting a hankering to bring out all the old Mark Williams illustrated villains...

 

What can YOU do against the combined POWER of Thok, Radar, and AVAR-7.

 

Muhahha.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Here's a page I wrote up some time ago, temporarily hosted here. Edit: With massive updates from previous versions.

[CorPse]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Nice work Chris and very apropos...

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

And if you have the books the way to tell at a glance first from second:

 

Lower right hand corner of the cover - if it says:

A HERO GAME - 1st ed

HERO GAMES with a figure - 2nd ed.

 

Copyrights 81 and 82 respectively

 

This prompted me to pull the old stuff down from the shelves.

 

My two earliest versions both have HERO GAMES with the figure, one copyright 81 (56 pages) and on copyright 82 (80 pages).

 

How do those fit in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

 

This prompted me to pull the old stuff down from the shelves.

 

My two earliest versions both have HERO GAMES with the figure, one copyright 81 (56 pages)

 

1st Ed - colour picture on the cover

 

and on copyright 82 (80 pages).

 

2nd ed - same picture, but in grey

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

Hugh,

 

The cover on the 82 80 page edition is in color as well...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Old School vs. New School

 

One of the biggest differences in first edition that I haven't seen mentioned were multipowers.

 

If you had a limitation on a slot, the slot cost was the same, but the active points in the slot went up.

 

So if you had a 60 pt multipower and a slot with:

OAF -1, 1 charge -2 you could stick a 240 active point power in the slot.

 

That was changed almost immediately.