The Incredibles and Registration

[Clonus]

Every time the subject of government registration the answer of course is that (almost) nobody with a secret identity would register, since after all the point of a secret identity is to be secret. A lot of people have their characters with public ID refuse to comply as well out of a belief that this is a violation of civil liberties or likely to be a wicked plot. I've got a different question. Suppose a GM decides what he wants to run is "The Incredibles, TNG". In the The Incredibles, characters all start out with secret identities known to the government, something that probably dates back to their equivalent of World War II. If your secret ID gets blown, then the government gives you and your family a new one complete with lining up a new civilian job for you. The

 

I'm particularly asking the players who would balk at such a change to their established universe. Would you play in such a game?

[casualplayer]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

I think the government worked out a Quid Pro Quo where they provided liability coverage for the supers in exchange for cooperation, including knowing their out-of-costume identities. A Contact in exchange for a Social Lim?

 

It wouldn't work for Iron Age fans because in Iron Age the gov't is eeeevil, and at the very least would demand more than they provide.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Possibly.

 

My main quibble about it would be this:

 

I would want the GM to guarantee the one element that seems written into such a setting - that somebody getting their hands on the information would be a rare event, a campaign-shaking, multiple-issue, "let's see how high we can make the sales go" event, rather than "ah, Tuesday!"

 

That's my (second) biggest problem with registration as a change to the setting. My first biggest is that it's usually written in such a way as to be *actively offensive* from a civil rights perspective. The second is that, typically, the government has been proven to have *no* track record for actually being able to *protect* information.

 

The government, in most comic book settings, would do a better job of protecting secrets by handing out cross-referenced packets of information than by whatever means they're actually doing it. Heck, *top secret prototype weapons systems* are put where patently corrupt and criminal individuals have access to them.

 

Respected candidates are found to be working for (or *be*, hello Invictus!) supervillains on a daily basis.

 

Top-secret super soldier programs fall into the hands of Doctor Destroyer or VIPER three times a week, like clockwork.

 

Cyberpaths alter nuclear launch codes around the world and sell them off, then alter the new ones so nobody can actually do more than *threaten* to launch the world's nukes, to earn their milk money for the day.

 

This is not a world in which the superheroes of the nation can expect this information to actually be kept safe.

 

The Incredibles, as the example you've listed, is not such a world. And I would expect the GM to treat it as such, with a "OMG! Somebody's acquired the access codes and knows who all the country's superheroes are!" plot as a 'season finale,' so to speak, and treated as one with the campaign shaking potential that it would have.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

There is also the horrible plot problem with The Incredibles, but not unique to them. (I LOVE the move, by the way, in spite of it.)

 

They suffer from the meta-genre fallacy that "The existance of Superheroes causes Supercrime."

 

When the public did away with Superheroes, there would have been an explosion of Supercrime that would have forced people/the govenernment/etc. to call upon the heroes for help.

 

This would have quickly forced the repeal the legistation. (Much as Syndrom's attack did.)

[StGrimblefig]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

The big question is when the law that requires registration was enacted. If supers have been around for a long time, and the government suddenly decides that they need to know who they really are, most will probably balk at the prospect. If the laws have been in place for a longer time, and if they are equitable for the heroes (liability tradeoffs, etc.), more "heroes" will probably be registered.

 

In my pet project the registration laws were put in place during the McCarthy era, and the agency charged with administering it is the same one that helped supers work with the government in WWII (the OSI -- and yes, they actually helped). Then whatever it was that caused super powers faded from the world, and the metahuman registration laws were forgotten (but never repealed). Jump to today, and a new generation of supers is emerging into a world that thinks that the comic books are just kid stories. There is only one OSI agent in the entire state that the PCs live in, and he has no idea what he is doing.

 

Will the new supers register?

Does anyone even know that they must?

Can the suddenly overworked OSI agent find the right forms to register them if they do?

 

Ultimately, for me it is just a subplot that can be used to create a scenario for a night when all the players cannot be there, or if the players need something different. It will only become important if the players indicate that they want it to be.

[Clonus]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

There is also the horrible plot problem with The Incredibles, but not unique to them. (I LOVE the move, by the way, in spite of it.)

 

They suffer from the meta-genre fallacy that "The existance of Superheroes causes Supercrime."

 

When the public did away with Superheroes, there would have been an explosion of Supercrime that would have forced people/the govenernment/etc. to call upon the heroes for help.

 

This would have quickly forced the repeal the legistation. (Much as Syndrom's attack did.)

 

Except there wasn't much supercrime to start with. There were a grand total of 4 costumed criminals (the only superpowered one of whom actually became a superhero after being caught) revealed to us versus dozens of superheroes. And honestly, I think conventional police forces could have handled Bomb Voyage (aka Bomb Perignon). The biggest effect running into superheroes probably had on him was they helped keep him alive far longer than he would have if he'd just run into cops with guns.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Except there wasn't much supercrime to start with. There were a grand total of 4 costumed criminals (the only superpowered one of whom actually became a superhero after being caught) revealed to us versus dozens of superheroes. And honestly' date=' I think conventional police forces could have handled Bomb Voyage (aka Bomb Perignon). The biggest effect running into superheroes probably had on him was they helped keep him alive far longer than he would have if he'd just run into cops with guns.[/quote']

 

That does kind of imply that having super-abilities in that world also makes one morally stronger. That might be too much of a stretch even for Elastigirl.

 

However, we do know that:

• From the intro, Mr. Incredible was always having to "Save the World." They just never go into what from.
  
• The government would not have been so willing to help out all the heroes if their service hadn't been meaningful in the past. (And the agent assigned to Mr. Incredible implies as much when he is fired from the insurance agency.) Again, the story does not go into much detail of what the heroes did to earn such cooperation.

We also know, from the bonus materials on the DVD that there were a lot more superheroes and supervillians then just those that made it into the film.

[Cold Steel]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Adding to the registration problem is the public attitude of "not in my backyard." They would not mind superheroes getting carded but they get all antsy when registration starts applying to them, the average citizens. Then there will a general outcry to have the act repealed.

 

Ain't Democracy grand?

[Lord Fyre]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Adding to the registration problem is the public attitude of "not in my backyard." They would not mind superheroes getting carded but they get all antsy when registration starts applying to them, the average citizens. Then there will a general outcry to have the act repealed.

 

Ain't Democracy grand?

 

But that kind of "carding" already happens. In the United States, buy a firearm. In most nations buy a car. Or become a Private Investigator, Bounty Hunter, etc.

 

Discounting the "Iron Age" idea that Government is EVIL, I supsect that most people would tend to think of Superpowers in the same light.

[David Blue]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

I'm particularly asking the players who would balk at such a change to their established universe. Would you play in such a game?

In general, I would not agree to this, and I would be miffed.

 

Some characters are meant to lose their secret identities. The early Bruce Banner could not have concealed his identity as the Hulk forever. A change to the champaign that took a character like that where he was eventually going to go anyway would be OK. Even so, I would like to talk about it with the gamemaster.

 

Other characters are very much meant to stay secret. The freedom of action that comes from the fact that they and they alone know who they are is very important to them, and the heavy investments they make in secrecy are worthwhile for this reason. A character like this who has been played by a strong roleplayer for a good long while is likely to have a history of close calls and morally difficult and / or physically painful choices taken to keep his or her secrets secret, along with a lot of rather paranoid player toil put in.

 

Sometimes you even have to argue with the gamemaster. (The gamemaster says that since you have investigated the Suicide Squad, you must have left your fingerprints everywhere, and Amanda Waller then blackmails you into not revealing her crimes. The player argues that he is running Batman, not a moron, and Batman does not leave his fingerprints everywhere.)

 

If you're playing the latter kind of character, having that all wiped out by fiat is unwelcome to say the least.

 

Instead of playing a character who's the captain of his own ship of fate, with possibly world-altering (and hopefully world-improving) long term schemes, you're reduced to running a grunt. While your powers still count, your character concept evidently does not.

[Clonus]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

That does kind of imply that having super-abilities in that world also makes one morally stronger. .

 

I suspect it implies that they've already caught the super-criminals and the government had an effective way of dealing with them that took them out of circulation for a very long time if not permanently. Also of course considering how the NSA operates, it seems quite likely that they would occasionally haul a willing superhuman out of retirement to secretly deal with a straggler. Syndrome's massacre of the secret superheroes may have created a power vacuum.

[casualplayer]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Every time the subject of government registration the answer of course is that (almost) nobody with a secret identity would register, since after all the point of a secret identity is to be secret. A lot of people have their characters with public ID refuse to comply as well out of a belief that this is a violation of civil liberties or likely to be a wicked plot. I've got a different question. Suppose a GM decides what he wants to run is "The Incredibles, TNG". In the The Incredibles, characters all start out with secret identities known to the government, something that probably dates back to their equivalent of World War II. If your secret ID gets blown, then the government gives you and your family a new one complete with lining up a new civilian job for you. The

 

I'm particularly asking the players who would balk at such a change to their established universe. Would you play in such a game?

 

Also I don't think the government knew the secret ids of all the supers or they would have noticed the pattern of disappearing closet supers much sooner than Mr. Incredible reading about it in the newspaper. One has to assume that Rick Dickard (I think that was the gov't agent's name) would have informed or warned The Incredibles.

 

And let's not forget that Mirage working for Syndrome busted Frozone's (along with others) secret id wide open without any government help or hindrance. Mr. Incredible got caught up in that by being an associate, and even then they didn't backtrace to Elasti-Girl. As a GM, you get a lot of wiggle room to work with and also a nasty reminder that a Watched can be a lead-up to nasty Hunted.

 

I think this would be a fine premise for a campaign as long as you're entrusting your secrets to trustworthy people, and the government qualifies.

[Lord Fyre]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

I suspect it implies that they've already caught the super-criminals and the government had an effective way of dealing with them that took them out of circulation for a very long time if not permanently. Also of course considering how the NSA operates' date=' it seems quite likely that they would occasionally haul a willing superhuman out of retirement to secretly deal with a straggler. Syndrome's massacre of the secret superheroes may have created a power vacuum.[/quote']

 

That is plausible. I still would think if it as a bit of a stretch.

 

For example, we know that (per the meta-genre fallacy) as soon as the Incredibles are "outed" as Superheroes, the Underminer chooses that moment to appear.

[Weldun]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

In my campaing, I've made a point of the fact that DOSPA has actually hired several cyberpaths to ensure the security of their files (they did it with hackers in the early days of computer networks). I like the idea of governments being able to get somethings right, from time to time.

[Clonus]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Also I don't think the government knew the secret ids of all the supers or they would have noticed the pattern of disappearing closet supers much sooner than Mr. Incredible reading about it in the newspaper.

 

In theory they should have. All the characters Syndrome killed were in the "NSA files" that were in the bonus CD.

[Clonus]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

 

If you're playing the latter kind of character, having that all wiped out by fiat is unwelcome to say the least.

.

 

You may have misinterpreted the question, which was about starting a new game, not converting an old one.

[David Blue]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

You may have misinterpreted the question' date=' which was about starting a new game, not converting an old one.[/quote']

Ah, I see. I did misinterpret you, based on this: "I'm particularly asking the players who would balk at such a change to their established universe. Would you play in such a game?"

 

Got it now.

 

Well, having established that I would balk at such a change to my established universes, and so having answered part of the question, I'll say I am also playing very happily in a Hero Central game with what amounts to compulsory registration: Psi High.

 

I would not be happy as Mr. or Mrs. Incredible, but the world looks very different from the point of view of characters like Violet and the Dash, who were in effect born registered. From their point of view you are not giving up your autonomy, secrecy and freedom: you never had them, and as a minor you are not supposed to have them. So: fair enough.

 

As it happens, and there is nothing surprising about this, our government-supplied secret identities have not held up well. About half the Psi High students took their secret identities seriously, and I even spent points on Area Knowledge and Imitate Dialects to become fully Californian and American. But about half the kids wouldn't even use their new names most of the time - and if your friends and schoolmates are non-secure so are you. (Think of the problems that siblings might have with this too - every time you move, you have to get a new name and a new identity, and likely new hobbies and sports, losing your old ones. What if your brother or sister won't even use the new name? "Hi, I'm supposed to be called Sandra but my real name is Darleen.")

 

The kids who ignored security argued that it was meaningless anyway, and they were right. One of our classmates, a mind controller, defected, taking with him, among other things, everything our school doctor / psychologist knew, and later he returned and took everything someone else knew, so that even those who enrolled later and had been paranoid about their security procedures lost everything. And that villain has other contacts, and so on.

 

Given this, naturally everybody has moved into the fortified government dormitory (watch those hallway cameras!) and their parents have moved to different states or continents.

 

For safety, we also use and carry everywhere government supplied cell phones that we know are traced, and those of us with various forms of clairvoyance play a polite game of make believe as if we did not see the government agents always keeping us under surveillance.

 

Again, fair enough: whoever moves out from under surveillance not only invites more villainous attacks (delivered to us in the comfort and privacy of our own homes), but their updated knowledge is a danger to everyone as soon as the villains start using it.

 

By the time these kids reach the age of majority, they'll be fully used to living in a world where, while the public may be in the dark, villains know everything about them, including their secret dreams, where they'd like to live, what work they would like to do, what food they like, how they liked to dress and what hobbies and sports it would kill them to give up. Of course telepathic classmates (in one case with always on telepathy) also know this.

 

Why would you not register, as an adult? What would you give up by doing so? Privacy??

 

In some ways the situation of Dash and Violet is even more dis-empowered. Separating the supers rather than having a Psi High / Sky High means the government still has everything on these kids, but they know nothing about each other, except in their own families. They have no real peers, nobody they can really compete with, and nobody they can talk freely to about anything. (Except the government counselor with the tape running of course.) It's enough to make you stir-crazy, which can be interesting to play. The incentive to get into any action going is strong.

 

The Dash registers. Violet registers. There is no rational reason why they wouldn't. Rick Dickerson or the equivalent knows everything about them anyway. And if you already love playing them - why would you stop playing them?

 

In sum, if super-hood is hereditary, as in The Incredibles (2004) and Sky High (2005), getting people to register is only a problem in the first generation.

[Comic]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Would you play in such a game?

 

Of course I'd play in such a game.

 

I'm not particularly the kind to balk at such a change in a current game, though I could play characters who would balk at the change.

 

I'd at least be sure their balking was meaningful, effectual, non-hypocritical and beneficial.. Unless I was playing a jerk.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Well, there's a little problem. We KNOW that the government official who runs this program is NIXON. Heck, he even LOOKED like Nixon.

 

And you guys think the government in the incredibles isn't evil? He's not a crook...no...not at all.

[Karmakaze]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

I worked on a more reasonable registration package a while back. Having to register for simply having abilities is unreasonable. I went with something that was as much carrot as stick.

 

- You can only legally perform a citizen's arrest if you stick around to give a statement (and possibly testify later). (otherwise it's just assault and/or kidnapping) Statements given under a false name are not legitimate, but you may use a registered alias.

 

- A crime committed with "superpowers" is automatically aggravated. If you've registered, you can call on the registry database as part of your defense in court and may even apply to have court documents only use your registered alias. Note that "Resisting Arrest" and "Flight to Avoid Prosecution" are both crimes; so is vigilantism in many jurisdictions.

 

- If you're arrested for a crime relating to your powers, you will get registered as part of the process. Involuntary registration doesn't generally carry the same alias protections as voluntary registration, although special arrangements can be made. If you're arrested and not convicted, you can sue to be expunged from the registry database (assuming you believe they're not keeping secret files on you anyway).

 

- Persons who register have access to government sponsored metahuman specialists (and can purchase extra coverage)

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

Registering with the government? As others pointed out, not unless the GM keeps the chance of exposure for heroes' identities to a bare minimum. If the government can actually be trusted, fine. Unfortunately, most games I've played in have been the opposite.

 

I always liked Bob Greenwade's Oregon Hero Sanction, and happily used it as the basis for a past Champions campaign based in New York City. In the case of the OHS, the registration board includes very select government officials and chosen heroes, so it had enough "self-rule" to keep my players from being too paranoid.

 

The database with hero ID information was only ever threatened once, and the immediate response by many heroes stopped the villains well before they could get as far as the database itself. I don't believe any of the information ever fell into the wrong hands throughout that campaign.

 

In my game (not sure if Bob had it this way or if it was one of my very few modifications), registration information was dual-encrypted: specifically, opening any specific hero's file required decryption codes from one hero and one government official on the Registration Board. In case somebody managed to get illegal access to the computer, false files were also stored on the computer, with slightly-to-greatly modified info on the heroes.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Incredibles and Registration

 

As a note - if the GM *did* ensure that ID revelations would be unusual events (I wouldn't make him promise not to - let's face it, it's too big a Big Problem to pull out for your heroes!), I'd enjoy such a game, I think. So if you're looking for interested folks....