Prolly not a new Q:

[Sundansyr]

As illustrated in the thread about 'floating AP values', attacks that don't beat defenses do no damage whatsoever.

 

One of the main trouble spots in the Hero system' date=' as I see it, is that there is a strong incentive to pour a lot of points into one [b']really big[/b] attack power. Since you need to exceed someone's defense to do any damage at all, weak attacks are virtually useless.

 

This is a fact that I see as quite true, and does limit people from choosing 'lesser' attack powers simply because they realize that, against villains of contemporary power, they'll be wholly ineffective (something my first Hero character had a problem with... being completely useless).

 

What campaign mechanics could I bring into my game to make it more realistic for people to have weaker-than-max-power attack powers? Currently the only reason they would is for 'removing softies' from their area, generally low power damage shields or the like which do stun only or KB only, because idiot normals like to gawk or even get really ignorant and attempt to attack the Heroes.

One even wanted to get a cell-phone snapshot standing next to the hero... in a fight (yes, I rolled his reaction that way!). Needless to say this put the Hero at a major disadvantage for several rounds. No one ever said that softies were always smarties.

 

Ablative defenses by default (with some manner of relatively swift regeneration)? All powers penetrating? Other concepts?

[Thia Halmades]

Er... well, there's a bunch. Not the least of which are the "basic" attack advantages. Sure, you can have your big nasty armor thingy. I'm comfortable with that.

 

I have a mental attack. Thwack. Or a Flash. Or my main attack isn't huge, but it's Armor Piercing. Did I mention that the spike on the back of my wrist is Penetrating? Big armor with lots of rPD eh? No sweat. This is an rED weapon. Or, I can build an AVLD Sonic Strike which'll leave you deaf AND broken. I don't like your armor, so I'm just going to use Communist Russia Fire attack, where Fire heats YOU (Indirect, originates on your person, ignores armor).

 

HERO. Not a small box. And no, I'm not being flip, I just had the exact same conundrum when I started playing and I'm giving you the same answer I got, just condensed. It isn't that "biggest attack = t3h best" it's realizing that you aren't limited to just one type of attack. NND Does BODY is brutal, AVLDs for Sonic based attacks (or 'burning' strikes for sight based flashes if you want to go that route).

 

*checks bag of tricks*

 

Them's the basics. You can go anywhere from there. We won't even get into adjustment powers or the like.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

The best way I've dealt with issues such as this myself is to manage the expected point values (or point caps) of the campaign.

 

Start with the most lowest powered weapon/attack you feel should have some kind of affect on the "average" PC. Figure out how much defenses would effectively make a target immune to it, then rule the "average" hero must have less than that. Basically, if that value turns out to be 12 rPD and 18 total PD, most of the PCs should have less than that, while it will be okay for some to have more.

 

Once you have this baseline, figure out how powerful an attack must be to be "too much" for targets with the above figured defenses and rule the max values to be less than that amount. All that is left is to balance all the NPCs to function appropriately under how you've geared the PCs.

 

And if all else fails, buy lots of NNDs, AVLDs, Entangles, etc.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

I don't like your armor' date=' so I'm just going to use Communist Russia Fire attack, where Fire heats YOU (Indirect, originates on your person, ignores armor).[/quote']

 

Indirect doesn't allow you to ignore personal defenses like Armor or FF. That would required AVLD or NND.

[Tech]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

Indirect doesn't allow you to ignore personal defenses like Armor or FF. That would required AVLD or NND.

 

You beat me to it.

[Checkmate]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

One of the main trouble spots in the Hero system, as I see it, is that there is a strong incentive to pour a lot of points into one really big attack power. Since you need to exceed someone's defense to do any damage at all, weak attacks are virtually useless.

This is the EXACT same in every RPG ever created (that I know of), the only difference is most of them combine the Defense into a to hit roll. In D20 how do you raise your chance to NOT get hit? Get more DEX (you avoid the blow) or buy stronger armor (the blow doesn't get through). In D20 when the GM says you miss, it's not always a miss. Sometimes (most of the time?) it's a hit that does no damage.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

\What campaign mechanics could I bring into my game to make it more realistic for people to have weaker-than-max-power attack powers? Currently the only reason they would is for 'removing softies' from their area' date=' generally low power damage shields or the like which do stun only or KB only, because idiot normals like to gawk or even get really ignorant and attempt to attack the Heroes.[/quote']

 

Well, there's a couple of things you can do:

* Compound Powers - Relax the Active Point limits slightly when someone designs a compound power. For example, Megavolt may have a 12d6 EB, while Strobelight has a 10d6 EB with a linked 3d6 sight flash. Megavolt gets through defenses easier, but Strobelight temporarily blinds his foes in addition to doing damage.

* Boostable powers - Create powers that can be boosted in specific situations. Against most foes, they're less powerful than the campaign max, but in specific situations or against specific foes, they do more damage. For example, maybe Talisman's mystical blade is a 1 1/2d6 HKA (3d6+1 w/STR), but gains the Armor Piercing advantage versus supernatural creatures.

 

In general, a hard Active Point cap without taking into account other factors is going to unnecessarily restrict character design. I prefer to see a give-and-take approach, where a character may accept lower capabilities in one area in exchange for other benefits.

[jtelson]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

I haven't tried it but you could take a page from Star Fleet Battles and include some sort of 'Bleed' rule, where some damage always bleeds through defenses (x (1?)stun/body per y (10?) always leaks through defenses). This would be similar to penetrating, which might then become increased bleed (2x per y).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

Normally, I just control Defenses so the average opponent takes something from an average attack roll.

 

PCs and Major Badguys tend to be the only exceptions.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

The thing about Hero is that you can make the game exactly what you want. The problem that you see here is partly because players can tailor things exactly how they want and, given that they are gamers, tailor it so that they are as weakness free as possible.

 

Now, the one major thing in the game that leads to the maxed out attack is the fact that defences are constant - your forcefield has to choose between ED/PD and sometimes a few of the exotic things like PD or ED. Players tend to go headlong into the score more points than the PD or ED of the opponent and start scoring off the STUN or BODY (depending on the genre!).

 

One way to get a different model is to link some of the defences of the players (and NPCs) to their attack modes, so that if they are using lesser powers their defences are higher and if they are using more offensive stuff their defences are lower. That way they can begin to choose what to do, take some risks or go underground.

 

Another possibility is to rate the defences differently against different special effects - Ultimate Energy Blaster does a lot of this kind of work for you but you can do it yourself and differently to get the feel that you want.

 

You might decide that a fire energy field works a bit better against cold based attacks and water/fluid based ones while the screen of force does well against physical type attacks it does less so against sonic ones.

 

This works best in play if you are confident enough to consistently award bonuses and deficits according to special effects as it should not slow down the game too much. Otherwise you could tabulate it and sort it out that way - thought that is guaranteed to add time to combats - not an attractive proposition in Hero unless it provides LOTS of the colour that you want.

 

There are lots of other ways to make things better - dont allow simple vanilla energy blasts - have them bound up with standard effects such as fire blast - added effect -3PD versus next physical based attack - type stuff. Adds variety and strategy to the fight as players try to combine effects to weaken the opponent for a final KO blow.

 

 

Doc

[Maccabe]

Re: Prolly not a new Q:

 

When you create villians it's a good idea to make their attacks powerful enough to at least do some STUN to the heroes (unless they are a major bad-guy ) and they will take some STUN likewise (unless they are a team-level villian).

Actually there is a problem here that requires mentioning; Why do they want higher attacks??? Do the players feel they are too weak and maybe you need to tone down the villians? Do they come from a game system (not mentioning D&D by name-oops) that supports a BIG attack done quickly??

Increasing attack powers on either side of the "moral compass" tends to start an "arms race" that can only lead to tragedy. Talk to your players is all I can say. Throw the occasional "whimp" villian at them; Low DEF & STUN. The poor sucker gets knocked out in one shot but hey they are grossly overconfident, arrogant, and/or their big bad sibling comes in for payback.