Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

[dropblack]

So I've been reading Sidekick in an attempt to finally get comfortable enough with Hero to run a game. Page 88 'Beginning Combat' says "Combat always begins on Segment 12. This gives everyone a chance to act and then take a Post-Segment 12 Recovery."

 

But what if you have a Speed of 1? According to 'The Speed Chart' page 87 a character with Speed 1 has his Phase on Segment 7--so according to the Speed Chart-- for everyone BUT Mr. Slowpoke Speed 1, combat starts on segment 12. Speed 1s wait until Segment 7.

 

But then the 'Speed Quick-Reference Table' right below the 'Speed Chart' says that having a Speed 1 gives you a Phase on Segment 12. I've checked the Revised edition and found that the 'Speed Quick-Reference Table' in that book puts Speed 1s on 7, not 12.

 

So the questions are

 

In a normal turn does someone with a Speed of 1 have his Phase on segment 7 or 12? (I'm assuming 7).

 

and

 

When beginning combat does everyone start on Segment 12 including those who have a Speed of 1 (even if in a normal turn they have a Phase on 7)?

[Ternaugh]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Assume that a SPD 1 character acts on Phase 12 at the start of combat, along with everyone else. For any turns after that, assume that the character acts on Phase 7. I can't really remember the last time that I had a SPD 1 character enter combat; in my typical Fantasy Hero game, the players tend to be SPD 3 or 4. I have had some characters switch to SPD 1 (on Post-Segment 12), for various reasons (like avoiding drowning, or saving on the END cost of a continuous spell).

 

JoeG

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Assume that a SPD 1 character acts on Phase 12 at the start of combat, along with everyone else. For any turns after that, assume that the character acts on Phase 7. I can't really remember the last time that I had a SPD 1 character enter combat; in my typical Fantasy Hero game, the players tend to be SPD 3 or 4. I have had some characters switch to SPD 1 (on Post-Segment 12), for various reasons (like avoiding drowning, or saving on the END cost of a continuous spell).

 

JoeG

 

I'm with Ternaugh on this, as it makes logical sense in the progression of a fight; per the rules, everyone goes on 12 at the start of a combat; this doesn't change anything if you're SPD 1; it just means you get your 1 turn on 12 along with everyone else, at the start of combat, then take a PS12 Recovery.

 

As the fight progresses, Captain Snail will then only go on 7, and take a PS12 Recovery normally, while everyone else dances circles around him. Generally, even the slowest characters have a SPD 2; most 'combatants' have a SPD 3, and then bigger, badder cats have a SPD 4, but again (not to reiterate, but when you're right you're right, and Ternaugh? Ternaugh's right) the normal SPD you'll see in a heroic fantasy game is 3-4. 3 being what most people end up with after spending a few points, and 4 being the cap for Normal Characteristic Maxima.

[Kdansky]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Never have speed 1. The difference between 2 and 4 is so big that is is close to completely unbalancing (Twice the actions? Movement twice as far?), but 1 vs 3 must be horrible.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Never have speed 1.

Okay, I'll make sure all the sickly folks and rickety old men in my campaigns are sprightly enough to get a SPD of 2.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Okay' date=' I'll make sure all the sickly folks and rickety old men in my campaigns are sprightly enough to get a SPD of 2. [/quote']

 

I'll send a memo to Bruce and his character in Bubba Ho-Tep. He'll want to know he really had a SPD 2 throughout that film.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Ok, for starters, I house rule that away just for sanity -- SPD 1 goes in 12 not 7 in my games.

 

For seconders, characters drown at a minimum SPD of 2 (2 END per TURN), per the rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Ok, for starters, I house rule that away just for sanity -- SPD 1 goes in 12 not 7 in my games.

 

For seconders, characters drown at a minimum SPD of 2 (2 END per TURN), per the rules.

 

I often wondered about moving SPD 1 from P7 to P12; how does that work for you? Other than the obvious, you like it and therefore use it, but I always thought that the 7 was so they could go somewhere "in the middle" rather than just "at the end," which is why I'm asking.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

I often wondered about moving SPD 1 from P7 to P12; how does that work for you? Other than the obvious' date=' you like it and therefore use it, but I always thought that the 7 was so they could go somewhere "in the middle" rather than just "at the end," which is why I'm asking.[/quote']

 

It comes up so rarely its largely notional. In 17 years of playing HERO across genres Ive only ever seen one PC electively have 1 SPD -- Ovis of the Iron Reeds, an ancient and aged Druid and committed pacifist.

 

In practice a SPD 1 comes up due to Drain vs SPD, and even then it is only one of a number of possible post-Drain values. Rare, in other words.

 

 

P12 is the most dangerous of Phases because everyone (other than SPD 1 per the book) goes; not having an action in P12 is generally a very bad thing. All in all, when it has come up, players have preferred to at least have a chance of going in 12 assuming they didnt have to Abort or get KO'd before then. But, again, its really an edge case to begin with.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Groovy, thanks for the enlightening answer!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

It comes up so rarely its largely notional. In 17 years of playing HERO across genres Ive only ever seen one PC electively have 1 SPD -- Ovis of the Iron Reeds' date=' an ancient and aged Druid and committed pacifist. [/quote']

 

I definitely agree here. The possibility of SPD 1 characters is acknowledged by the books, but you won't see many SPD 1 characters in combat anyway. You can also have a 5 DEX and a 5 CON, but they're not practical combatant-type characters.

 

P12 is the most dangerous of Phases because everyone (other than SPD 1 per the book) goes; not having an action in P12 is generally a very bad thing. All in all' date=' when it has come up, players have preferred to at least have a chance of going in 12 assuming they didnt have to Abort or get KO'd before then. But, again, its really an edge case to begin with.[/quote']

 

I'd almost rather not have a phase in 12, and know I'd be able to abort my next Phase 7 move. I suspect a spd 1 character has not been designed for combat anyway, and will spend his phase, whether it rolls around on 12 or on 7, aborting to dodge anyway.

 

The only SPD 1 I can ever recall was a Champions game character on a fantasy world, but he also had enough Growth and DI (that he could not shut down) to be about 2 km tall and STR 125. He was probably better classified as a plot device than a character, and he apeared only briefly (a couple of sessions) as a foil for a significant adversary.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Sure, we could debate the _tactical_ ramifications of using a 1 SPD just to Abort working out pretty much the same either way. However the _psychological_ ramifications of average player preferences is another matter entirely.

 

I've heard people complain about getting to go once in 7 when in that situation, Ive never heard people complain about getting to go once in 12.

[dropblack]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[JmOz]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Only time I have had this come up was with a vehicle (Ironicaly the thing had 10" Megascale 1"=1,000 KM). We used speed 1 as phase 12. No problems to speak of

[rjcurrie]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

The rule about starting combat in segment was introduced in either 3rd or 4th edition (I know it is in 4th, but I don't have a 3rd edition rulebook to check). In 2nd edition, the combat rules don't explicitly mention starting on segment 1 but the example of play does mention starting then. So, it's quite possible that the original decision to have SPD 1 characters act on segment 7 rather than segment 12 was to avoid having them wait almost a full turn before getting an action. When the change in starting segment was made, the effect on SPD 1 characters may have simply been overlooked.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

The rule about starting combat in segment was introduced in either 3rd or 4th edition (I know it is in 4th' date=' but I don't have a 3rd edition rulebook to check). In 2nd edition, the combat rules don't explicitly mention starting on segment 1 but the example of play does mention starting then. So, it's quite possible that the original decision to have SPD 1 characters act on segment 7 rather than segment 12 was to avoid having them wait almost a full turn before getting an action. When the change in starting segment was made, the effect on SPD 1 characters may have simply been overlooked.[/quote']

 

Interesting 4th Dimensional consideration. Perhaps it was beneficial at one time and was rendered disadvantageous by a later rules change. Good theory.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

I am with the Segment 7 people. Yes, too bad, but if you are that slow you don't even say "Huh? Wot?" on Segment 12 at the start of combat.

 

But I don't think that simple "slowliness" cuts it for SPEED 1. I would think that the character is either suffering from some severe physical and/ or mental disorder that he is that un-fast.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

IIRC, the original suggestion to start combat on 12 was made in an Adventurer's Club article circa 2nd Ed. The theory was that an ambush occurs, only those ambushing get actions, but then everyone gets a recovery.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

Right, if combat begins w/ a Surprise attack those who are Surprised don't get to go in 12. Those who make their PER checks are not Surprised and get their 12. Everyone gets PS-12's even if they were surprised.

 

By making SPD 1 go in 7, they are basically always Surprised by combat, though if they aren't really Surprised they can Abort their 7 in the first 12 and just not go for a full TURN and a half.

 

Seems a bit much to me. I mean, sure they are SLOOOOOW, but that's taking it too far IMO.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Phase/Segments for Speed 1 Slowpokes

 

IIRC' date=' the original suggestion to start combat on 12 was made in an Adventurer's Club article circa 2nd Ed. The theory was that an ambush occurs, only those ambushing get actions, but then everyone gets a recovery.[/quote']

 

Sounds about right. I know the idea of starting on segment 12 pre-dated it becoming an actual rule.