Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

[nexus]

First, I'm pretty sure there will be mixed opinions about this but there are some abilities that you seen employed in Champions "source material" that don't work as well when you change the medium to a role playing game. Mainly, these are powers that require pure fiat and PIS to fail. In the hands of a generally focused and tactical player they'd be potentially unbalancing (and possibly more importantly not that fun).

 

IMO these powers include:

 

"Instant Death effects" (Teleporting a target into deep space, destroying their soul, etc). Champions pretty much keeps a lid on these by sheer point cost but there are ways to build them.

 

"Irresistible psychokinesis" Classic PK is often depicted as being basically infallible. It doesn't "miss" and the target is fairly helpless (often suspended in the air or tossed around like a rag doll). In Champions it works like Strength at range which is potent but not quite as overwhelming. There are ways to build overwhelming PK (Flight Usable As an Attack, for example).

 

"Stopping Time": Fairly self explanatory. Whatever the sfx (time manipulation, being so fast the rest of the world is essentially standing still, etc) this is a "I win" button in most situations or at least an "I escape" button.

 

Granting or gaining permanent new powers, more or less, at will: Either the ability to give someone else superpowers permanently or to gain them for yourself extremely fast and for good (Sylar and Peter from Heroes are a good example). Very hard to handle in game but fortunately it's a pretty costly and difficult effect to create in Hero.

 

I'm sure there are more but those are the big ones for me. Now, I believe these abilities could be used. For example, in a solo game or some heavily limited form but it seems like they're the big ones that cause some issues in a more or less standard superhero campaign.

[MitchellS]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I personally haven't had any problems with any of the powers you've listed above. Basically every example power you listed is a power in M&M that anyone could buy so they are seen much more often in my M&M games then they probably are in a standard Champs game. The real issue to me is the interaction between the players and gm. Some gms really hate to lose, and some players really hate to lose, so you end up with gms who craft detailed enoounters to defeat the players and players who are always looking for the easy win. I try to stress genre over just winning and losing. The superhero genre's one of the few where you constantly have the same reoccuring foes so the definitive win or loss isn't as important as the story itself, IMO. Generally the interesting foes are going to find ways to work around your 'ultimate' power so while your time stop might work once or twice eventually your rogue's gallery is going to find a way around it. That's what makes fights against all the absolute heroes interesting.

[OddHat]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I've built and used all the powers listed in the first post in Hero.

 

I agree that they need to be monitored closely, and require an understanding between the player and GM as far as expectations, balance, and genre are concerned.

 

That said, if such an understanding exists, they work well enough in the right campaign (as I'm sure Nexus would agree). It's not a problem with designing a power using Hero's mechanics; it's an issue of player and GM communication and campaign set up.

 

A power set I like that is frequently tough to balance in my default campaign is the casual dimension traveler. In an Amber campaign, he's no problem at all; in a campaign where the rest of the PCs are not dimension travelers, he's potentially absurdly unbalanced.

[nexus]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I've built and used all the powers listed in the first post in Hero.

 

I agree that they need to be monitored closely, and require an understanding between the player and GM as far as expectations, balance, and genre are concerned.

 

That said, if such an understanding exists, they work well enough in the right campaign (as I'm sure Nexus would agree). It's not a problem with designing a power using Hero's mechanics; it's an issue of player and GM communication and campaign set up.

 

Yep. Constructing the powers isn't the problem (some of them are costly but I feel that's appropriate) but they're potentially very unbalancing to the campaign often requiring a certain degree of metagaming (in the sense of OOC agreements and discussions). You can use writers shortcuts freely in an a rpg and players are a clever bunch.

 

Personally, I think those sort of abilities work best in a solo or small specialized campaigns (For example one where everyone can stop time or has Irresistible PK). They can shift the mood and types of conflict dramatically.

 

A power set I like that is frequently tough to balance in my default campaign is the casual dimension traveler. In an Amber campaign, he's no problem at all; in a campaign where the rest of the PCs are not dimension travelers, he's potentially absurdly unbalanced.

 

That's another good one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Probability/Luck powers a la Talisman (Justice Machine) and Scarlet Witch. Very potent abilities which fall into the hands of the GM to adjudicate since the character (and, by extension, the player) ranges from not fully controlling them to just standing back and waiting for them to kick in with no clue what will happen.

 

Power theft a la Rogue (ie being able to take out an enemy with one shot, then take over all his abilities). Really a variant of instant death powers.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Lots of information-based things don't work as well in a gaming setting. Can be gotten around, but much easier to deal with as a writer.

 

Precognition/Prophecy - easier for a writer who has complete control to handle than a GM. Certainly have to make visions more vague, talk about "one of many possible futures", etc.

 

Telepathy - what mystery?

 

Plain old fashioned detective work and other research. Characters are much more immersed into the setting than players can possibly be. Can be hard to find a balance between players being spoon-fed solutions vs. stumbling around in the dark.

[OddHat]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Plain old fashioned detective work and other research. Characters are much more immersed into the setting than players can possibly be. Can be hard to find a balance between players being spoon-fed solutions vs. stumbling around in the dark.

 

Amen to that. Recently a player who wanted to play a mystic with a raft of KS came out with "I repeat what the GM says; it's my only job in this campaign, and I'm going to do it."

 

Funny in a Galaxy Quest kind of way, but it also pointed out that I was feeding him info rather than offering clues he could work from.

[gmurie]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Basically every example power you listed is a power in M&M that anyone could buy so they are seen much more often in my M&M games then they probably are in a standard Champs game.

 

There is a forum for Mutants and Masterminds you know. Go there if you feel compelled to talk up the competition to the kind host of the forum you ARE posting on.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Probability/Luck powers a la Talisman (Justice Machine) and Scarlet Witch. Very potent abilities which fall into the hands of the GM to adjudicate since the character (and' date=' by extension, the player) ranges from not fully controlling them to just standing back and waiting for them to kick in with no clue what will happen.[/quote']

This was my first thought. To truly capture that sense of fantastic luck requires a lot of extra work from the GM. It can be mimicked in effect by giving the character a host of powers, but if the player is in control it tends to defeat the intention.

Lots of information-based things don't work as well in a gaming setting. Can be gotten around' date=' but much easier to deal with as a writer.[/quote']

Another one: Spider Sense. Danger Sense exists, of course, but Spidey's power is so acute and everpresent that it becomes a problem. "Why didn't I notice that?" kind of situations that require a extra attention from a very vigilant GM.

[input.jack]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

My group has simply had to place a moritorium on combining certain powers. For example, we have found that Invisibility + Desolidification = Plot Destruction in a cape.

 

 

There is a forum for Mutants and Masterminds you know. Go there if you feel compelled to talk up the competition to the kind host of the forum you ARE posting on.

 

This is a forum for and about superhero games. Some people, like me, are long-time Hero players/GMs, who happen to have occasionally run games in other systems. Like M&M.

 

This forum is a place where many of us have been coming for some time, and have made friends. The posters here are unusually intelligent, insightful, and courteous, compared to most other forums. People post here because the people here are the people whose opinions they value.

 

[teh bunneh]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Speaking as a Moderator: Let's not turn this thread hostile.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Can we make it a hostel? A place where we can all just hang out?

 

 

sorry, couldn't resist.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Another one: Spider Sense. Danger Sense exists' date=' of course, but Spidey's power is so acute and everpresent that it becomes a problem. "Why didn't I notice that?" kind of situations that require a extra attention from a very vigilant GM.[/quote']

 

Ha! Tell me about it. In my FtF game, one of the PCs has Danger Sense and I keep forgetting about it. Probably more a flaw in the GM (me) than in the power construct, but it does get embarrassing.

[yamamura]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Lots of information-based things don't work as well in a gaming setting. Can be gotten around, but much easier to deal with as a writer.

 

Precognition/Prophecy - easier for a writer who has complete control to handle than a GM. Certainly have to make visions more vague, talk about "one of many possible futures", etc.

 

Telepathy - what mystery?

 

Plain old fashioned detective work and other research. Characters are much more immersed into the setting than players can possibly be. Can be hard to find a balance between players being spoon-fed solutions vs. stumbling around in the dark.

 

As a fan of psychic powers, I believe and understanding between the GM and player works here too. Yes Telepathy can ruin the mystery if you have a character who casually mind rapes everybody as opposed to a character who will only do it on the willing or only if no other option exists. Also if there are psychic on the good guy side, there are bad guys psychic too in which case good old fashion detective work may be needed.

[OddHat]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

As a fan of psychic powers' date=' I believe and understanding between the GM and player works here too. Yes Telepathy can ruin the mystery if you have a character who casually mind rapes everybody as opposed to a character who will only do it on the willing or only if no other option exists. Also if there are psychic on the good guy side, there are bad guys psychic too in which case good old fashion detective work may be needed.[/quote']

 

The above is pretty much my experience. I run a lot of campaigns featuring telepaths, precogs, mystics, etc. In a campaign designed for them, they're fine. Sure, you can't as directly run a Murder on the Orient Express homage, but a few bad guys with their own mystic powers can put the mystery back into the game. Alternatively, you can (of course) not run the same sorts of mysteries.

 

In a campaign that isn't prepared for them, psychics can be unbalancing, but that's really true of most archetypes.

[Hermit]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I'll second the desolid invis combo as being a tricky one to handle, in many cases, it's actually trickier than mental powers

[Shaft]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

My philosophy has always been to allow powers as long as they don't overshadow the other players. As a GM, you can always find a way to challenge a PC, no matter how powerful, and in fact it is your duty to do so as a GM. But if one or two players is always stealing the show with a specific power, that is where the problem occurs.

 

The other challenge is a GM is to counter the uber power without using the same Special Effects. I ran a Dark Champions game where one of the PCs had Invisibility and Desolidification. I "countered" the power by setting the scenario up so that the team frequently took on magical threats, many of whom had astral perception and the ability to carry out attacks that affected desolid (defined as spirit attacks). I also had chi-using martial artists, mooks with Ghostbuster style entrapment devices (they didn't cross the beams), and characters with enchanted melee weapons (that also afffected desolid). The opposition didn't always have the means to attack the character while she was desolid, but the PC knew that Desolid wasn't a carte blanche to go whereever she wanted and be sloppy in combat.

 

That same game had a telepath- I made it a rule that telepathy could only scan surface thoughts at a distance. Deeper probes required skin to skin contact, a la Babylon 5. The PCs were cool with that because I made it clear that they wouldn't get scanned by an NPC telepath at a distance.

 

In both cases, I treated the powers like skills that always succeeded- I assumed that the desolid powers would get the same results as a stealth skill that always succeeded. I treated my telepath like an interogator that always gets the info he needs. Once I started writing my adventures with that assumption in mind, I wrote my plots with that "guaranteed success" in mind.

 

Admitedly, it's easier to do this in a street level supers game than with the Justice League, but it's not impossible. If a PC has time travel powers, he's likely to encounter villains who have ways of countering it (localized temporal fields, time travel powers, superspeed, etc...). If a PC can crush your soul with a thought, well that just generates bad karma and gets the attention of Trgion or Hades or both. If a PC has Kryptonian level Strength, he's likely to encounter tough villains capable of withstanding having a mountain dropped on them, etc... and so on.

[input.jack]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I have to agree on the "detective work" thing, too. It can be really tricky for a GM to know when theyve given out too much information, or too little. I have played several Batman-inspired characters, and GM'ed a few detective heroes as well, and I feel like I rarely get it right.

 

Although a friend of mine hit upon what I think is a great solution for this. In his games, he gives you the naked clues. You can analyze them, asking him for specific information ("Is the soil we found on the carpet unusual in some way? Does it come from a common or rare location?" etc). If youre totally stumped, and cant think past a certain block, you can make a Detective Work roll.

 

In which case you figure out where the NEXT place to go will be, where there are either more clues, a fight, or both, awaiting you

[input.jack]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

Speaking as a Moderator: Let's not turn this thread hostile.

 

Apologies.

[Shaft]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

I have to agree on the "detective work" thing, too. It can be really tricky for a GM to know when theyve given out too much information, or too little. I have played several Batman-inspired characters, and GM'ed a few detective heroes as well, and I feel like I rarely get it right.

 

Although a friend of mine hit upon what I think is a great solution for this. In his games, he gives you the naked clues. You can analyze them, asking him for specific information ("Is the soil we found on the carpet unusual in some way? Does it come from a common or rare location?" etc). If youre totally stumped, and cant think past a certain block, you can make a Detective Work roll.

 

In which case you figure out where the NEXT place to go will be, where there are either more clues, a fight, or both, awaiting you

 

I handle Detective characters like this: the GM is the PC's senses, but also also his expertise. I don't spoonfeed the player, but I give him concrete info when I tell him what he can disregard (and why). It lets the PC focus on assembling the relevant clues while giving him the confidence to know that he isn't working with dud info.

[MitchellS]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

There is a forum for Mutants and Masterminds you know. Go there if you feel compelled to talk up the competition to the kind host of the forum you ARE posting on.

My point above was that the commonality or problems caused by certain powers [as in the original list Nexus provided] are really based on the game system you're playing and your gaming experience with various systems. The problems aren't universal to all game systems [each game system will have its own problems].

 

For example, if you've only ever played Champions in your life then the concept of an auto-hit power can seem quite alien to you because Hero doesn't really have one [and only added AE Accurate with 5e]. M&M has well over a dozen auto-hit powers and auto-hitting is nothing more then an advantage you can add to any power. If you've always gamed with auto-hit then you don't really see it as a problem with people having it. If you've never gamed with auto-hit it can seem quite daunting to you when someone wants it. It's more about individual gaming experiences then saying X is a problem in superhero games.

[OddHat]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

My point above was that the commonality or problems caused by certain powers [as in the original list Nexus provided] are really based on the game system you're playing and your gaming experience with various systems. [snip]It's more about individual gaming experiences then saying X is a problem in superhero games.

 

I'm not entirely in disagreement; individual gaming experience will play a large part in what a player or GM considers to be a problem power, and the system does influence what is and isn't a problem. Still, I've GMed Time Stoppers, characters with effective Auto Hit powers, etc. in my home games using Hero. I haven't found any special system issues with building or GMing such characters beyond (arguably) point cost. I have seen and addressed balance issues to my own satisfaction.

 

Building a "balanced" Time stopper in Hero pretty much comes down to treating the Time Stop as a special effect and then deciding what mechanics to use to represent it. A massive Multipower of powers related to stopping time might be best in one campaign, Enter the Speed Zone in another.

 

As to experience in other systems, I've played almost every super hero system I've run into over the last 28+ years, and GMed many of them. A fair number of Fantasy, Sci Fi, Horror and "Universal" systems as well. I try not to assume that the person I'm talking to has a less varied background.

[MitchellS]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

As to experience in other systems' date=' I've played almost every super hero system I've run into over the last 28+ years, and GMed many of them. A fair number of Fantasy, Sci Fi, Horror and "Universal" systems as well. I try not to assume that the person I'm talking to has a less varied background.[/quote']

My impression of Nexus' post was that he was talking about superhero games in general, not just Champs. I was addressing Nexus' original point, in part, where he states "Mainly, these are powers that require pure fiat..." My response was that in some game systems [and I used M&M as the example] they're nothing more then game mechanics which require no fiat at all; they're common and ordinary and that the issue is more about your experience with dealing with it then anything else. How much background Nexus has had no bearing on what I felt was an inaccurate statement about superhero games in general.

[OddHat]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

My impression of Nexus' post was that he was talking about superhero games in general' date=' not just Champs. I was addressing Nexus' original point, in part, where he states "Mainly, these are powers that require pure fiat..." My response was that in some game systems [and I used M&M as the example'] they're nothing more then game mechanics which require no fiat at all; they're common and ordinary and that the issue is more about your experience with dealing with it then anything else.

 

It has been my experience, over many gaming systems both Superheroic and non, that you can include a power called "Time Stop" (as an example), and on the design level tweak it to the point that it's not going to unbalance (or further unbalance) a given campaign geared to a given style of play. In doing so, you tend to move further from how Time Stop works in a given piece of source material; the time stop effect of Well's New Accelerator is not quite the same the time stop effect used in NBCs Heroes, and either could be quite unbalancing in a campaign not balanced to deal with it.

 

You can build a perfectly viable Time Stop power or power suite in Hero; the balancing act just takes place at the campaign level rather than the system level.

[MitchellS]

Re: Comic Book powers that don't work as well in gaming

 

You can build a perfectly viable Time Stop power or power suite in Hero; the balancing act just takes place at the campaign level rather than the system level.

True, but you and I are not Nexus, who feels the powers he listed are problematic and require fiat in superhero games. The fact that you and I feel differently about it then he does doesn't change the fact of how he feels about it. So while he might feel it's a fiat issue for Hero you and I can see it as nothing more then a design challenge [and for some games, like M&M, it's as common as water and not even a design challenge].