Sean Waters Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Can I just mention that the force slam is clearly indirect, and TK already has that advantage built in? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam We see Darth Maul knock the snot out of Kenobi. We also see Anakin smack around some Geonosians that way. Finally, Yoda, clobbers Sidious's guards in their final confrontation. It's also possible to classify the Yoda-Sidious pushing contest and the Kenobi-Skywalker fight as force slams. Maul is not a Jedi. I am referring to Jedi that have not slipped to the Dark Side. Yes it is a nebulous description but really no more so than the code of a Paladin in D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Can I just mention that the force slam is clearly indirect, and TK already has that advantage built in? Thank you. You may. In fact, you just did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Well, according to the games, to fall to the Dark Side you simply need to pursue Power First, deal with the consequences later. That's it. Or. "Be a prick." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Can I just mention that the force slam is clearly indirect, and TK already has that advantage built in? Thank you. Absolutely not, under no circumstances, can you... Wait. DAMMIT. Not again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Well, according to the games, to fall to the Dark Side you simply need to pursue Power First, deal with the consequences later. That's it. Or. "Be a prick." I still think of it as just a metaphor. I can't grasp the concept of 'dark' or 'light' when all you're talking about is psionic powers acquired due to a symbiotic relationship with a psychically-charged micro-organism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam I still think of it as just a metaphor. I can't grasp the concept of 'dark' or 'light' when all you're talking about is psionic powers acquired due to a symbiotic relationship with a psychically-charged micro-organism. And do you know how much happier I was with the Force before it was Retconned into a broken unnecessarily scientific explanation that doesn't actually explain anything at all but makes it less religious based? Made more sense to me before it got all... never mind. I could launch onto a religious tangent about Lucas but that isn't the purpose of the thread. For purposes of this discussion, accept simply that being "light" or "dark" sided is basically a moral choice. That's all. How you want to argue the interaction between you and your mitochondria is a whole nother problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam I see some problems with buying Energy Blast or RKA as powers as opposed to Martial Art maneuvers. The movies portray the use of the Force for direct violence vs. sentient beings as a Dark (evil) thing. Do we ever see a Jedi use such abilities against anything other than a Droid? I don't think so. Is it a limitation of the Force? No. It is definitely a Psych Lim. Building the effects via Martial Arts maneuvers costing 3-5 points also fits the 'easier' description of the 'Dark Side' imho.This was never directly shown in the movies, this comes from EU. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam I'd just call it an TK special effect EB and be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam This was never directly shown in the movies, this comes from EU. TB EU ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam EU ?! European Union. Big fans of Hero, and Star Wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maur Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam EU == Extended Universe. The less than Canon source material. Per Lucas, only the movies are Canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam I'd just call it an TK special effect EB and be done. That works but it would end up being a far more expensive build that likely would require a framework of some sort. As a result it almost guarantees that the game has to be run using 'Super' rules instead of 'Heroic' since the non-Jedi PC's would otherwise have too many surplus points to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam EU == Extended Universe. The less than Canon source material. Per Lucas' date=' only the movies are Canon.[/quote'] My previous statement quoted by TB is based solely on the content of the 6 movies. I've read some of the Zahn books dealing with Han and Luke but none of the more recent Clone War era stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Maul is not a Jedi. I am referring to Jedi that have not slipped to the Dark Side. Yes it is a nebulous description but really no more so than the code of a Paladin in D&D. That still leaves Yoda. Is Yoda a Dark Side user? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam The question that we should really be focusing on is why Darth Maul and the other Sith were NOT tossing Obi-Wan and the other Jedi around more often than they did. I think that it is an easily deflected attack if the Force User (Jedi or Sith) is ready for it (has a Phase available to abort). The same idea applies to the use of Force Lightning by Duku and the Emperor. The direct Force Attacks (TK or Lightning) are only shown to be effective when the target is distracted by Lightsaber combat or caught by complete surprise (Luke tossing away his Lightsaber and declaring his defiance to the Emperor). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam That still leaves Yoda. Is Yoda a Dark Side user? I would say that self preservation was the rule in that case since he was faced with an opponent that was more than his equal (the Emperor). I don't think he killed the guards. I don't recall Yoda actually using Force Lightning. He just tossed the guards aside quickly so the Emperor didn't have even more of an advantage against him. I think Yoda was well aware of who/what the guards were (primary clones of Fett) and as such were tough enough to take what he gave them. It's not that different than Superman's fight with Parademons and later Darksied in the final JLU animated episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam The question that we should really be focusing on is why Darth Maul and the other Sith were NOT tossing Obi-Wan and the other Jedi around more often than they did. I think that it is an easily deflected attack if the Force User (Jedi or Sith) is ready for it (has a Phase available to abort). The same idea applies to the use of Force Lightning by Duku and the Emperor. The direct Force Attacks (TK or Lightning) are only shown to be effective when the target is distracted by Lightsaber combat or caught by complete surprise (Luke tossing away his Lightsaber and declaring his defiance to the Emperor). The best explanation I've read is that Jedi are able to resist Force TK like that and it's only when not focusing (when Maul knocks Obi-Wan after Qui-Gon getting struck down) or not trained to resist (Luke in Empire vs. Vader). TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam That works but it would end up being a far more expensive build that likely would require a framework of some sort. As a result it almost guarantees that the game has to be run using 'Super' rules instead of 'Heroic' since the non-Jedi PC's would otherwise have too many surplus points to spend. Could they not just toss it into a 'The Force' multipower and be done? Being a Jedi is not going to be a cheap option, they will end up having a narrower skill set than their normal buddies. Alternatively, they could all play Jedi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Legsweep, AoE (1-2"). Used with, and perhaps usable only with, TK. Target always falls, +2 OCV, -1 DCV (because, you know, the Jedi/Sith always seems to have to set themselves a little first), STR + 1d6 damage -- which gives your 35 STR TK 8d6 damage. And, you know, it only seems to be used (in multiples) against mooks, so ... just a Sweep with a regular Legsweep or other throw-style Martial Attack via your TK. Weapon Element: Telekinesis is your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam The best explanation I've read is that Jedi are able to resist Force TK like that and it's only when not focusing (when Maul knocks Obi-Wan after Qui-Gon getting struck down) or not trained to resist (Luke in Empire vs. Vader). TB That's the best explanation I've seen. Resist Force Powers: Basic: Force Powers Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% (15 Active Points); Must be aware of attack (-1/2) (10 Real Points) Resist Force Powers: Advanced: Force Powers Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Must be aware of attack (-1/2) (20 Real Points). Resist Force Powers: Master: Force Powers Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (60 Active Points); Must be aware of attack (-1/2) (40 Real Points) Or, in a Jedi-centric campaign, you could just give non-jedis and droids a vulnerability to force powers. This also accounts for the races that are resistant to Jedi "mind tricks" (Toydarians, Hutts, etc.) 10 Vulnerability: 2 x Effect from Force Powers (Uncommon). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam And do you know how much happier I was with the Force before it was Retconned into a broken unnecessarily scientific explanation that doesn't actually explain anything at all but makes it less religious based? Made more sense to me before it got all... never mind. I could launch onto a religious tangent about Lucas but that isn't the purpose of the thread. For purposes of this discussion, accept simply that being "light" or "dark" sided is basically a moral choice. That's all. How you want to argue the interaction between you and your mitochondria is a whole nother problem. Actually, Lucas' original notes show that the concept of Midichlorians was there from the beginning. He just left it out of the original movies. And it's a matter of choice, 'cause it makes more sense to me for a science-fiction movie to have a scientific explanation for stuff. But I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam Actually, Lucas' original notes show that the concept of Midichlorians was there from the beginning. He just left it out of the original movies. And it's a matter of choice, 'cause it makes more sense to me for a science-fiction movie to have a scientific explanation for stuff. But I digress. Except that the Force as shown in the OT was NOT scientific, it was mystical. Which is why grounding it in the scientific, measurable, quantifiable did the series a great diservice. If he had just had Qui-Gon say, "This boy has the strongest presence in the Force that I have ever felt in a lifeform, even greater than Master Yoda." That would have been sufficient. By making it scientific, then you open a whole can a worms that have no business being in SW; cloning, midiclorian distilation, heritability of the Force when the Jedi are quasi-monastic, etc.... Lucas would have been better off leaving it mysterious and unexplained. Heh, this after I b!tched about Cloverfield not explaining enough TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam I think that it is an easily deflected attack if the Force User (Jedi or Sith) is ready for it (has a Phase available to abort). The same idea applies to the use of Force Lightning by Duku and the Emperor. The direct Force Attacks (TK or Lightning) are only shown to be effective when the target is distracted by Lightsaber combat or caught by complete surprise (Luke tossing away his Lightsaber and declaring his defiance to the Emperor). I don't think what we see on screen agrees with your interpretation. Darth Maul uses a force slam against Kenobi basically as a surprise move. Sidious manages to hit Yoda with both lightning and a force slam. Dooku manages to both slam Anakin and force grip Kenobi. It would appear to me that force slam and Sith lightning pretty much always work unless the target deflects with a lightsaber or uses the Force for defense. In my conversion notes, I've built a Missile Reflection, only for deflecting Force powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted January 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam If he had just had Qui-Gon say, "This boy has the strongest presence in the Force that I have ever felt in a lifeform, even greater than Master Yoda." That would have been sufficient. By making it scientific, then you open a whole can a worms that have no business being in SW; cloning, midiclorian distilation, heritability of the Force when the Jedi are quasi-monastic, etc.... Bah!! When I was ten years old, it used to bother me that a supposedly mystical life force could somehow run in a family, when its use seemed to depend on enlightenment and training. The midiclorian explanation actually satisfies me immensely in that regard. EDIT: Also, the Jedi are not celibate. They are simply as a general rule not permitted to marry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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