How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

[pawsplay]

Okay, I've gotten as far as figuring out it should be a physical Energy Blast, Area of Effect (one hex) (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2) because it rips up droids and seems difficult to resist, Reduced Range (4") (-1/4), and Can Be Missile Deflected (as seen in RotS in the final battle) (-1/4).

 

What I can't figure out is how to actually make people fall down. To deliver Knockdown requires an impairing wound, and I don't see it breaking a lot of bones, at least on human targets. I thought about applying Does Knockback to knock down a Heroic Genre wall, but that leaves the situation where opponents go down, but they don't stay down (as, for instance, battle droids do). 6d6 EB is enough to Disable a battle droid, but rather punishing on a human.

 

Should I just assume Kenobi has at least 16 BODY and 6 PD (and got lucky), and that a force slam will maim most non-Jedi? Maybe he just rolled with the punch? Thoughts?

[Bloodstone]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I would just use TK for this.

 

Most Jedi probably have between 30 and 45 STR TK, so that's 6d6 to 9d6 damage from a TK Punch or Grab.

 

You can use less than max dice on an attack. Assume the Jedi restrain themselves on living opponents more than they do against droids.

 

Of course if you still feel EB is the best way to go, Indirect should probably be tacked on with the rest of the advantages.

[JmOz]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I agree, TK is probably the way to go

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

30 STR is enough to lift several people, far more power than is demonstrated by anyone other than Yoda, the Skywalkers, Sidious, and Dooku.

 

I'm not sure Indirect applies; can it bypass barriers? It certainly always comes from a single direction.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Man, these boards move fast!

 

Don't you people work!?!?!?!?! (j/k)

 

I agree with the rest... TK is the best way to do this.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I'm trying to work but at a creative block. And yes, the answer is TK.

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It just seems that the Star Wars movies are in some ways more realistic than the core Hero system as far as how much power it takes to fling someone versus knock the wind out of them; the damage we see is far disproportionate to the lifting STR we see, in Hero terms. I mean, if he had 35 STR to work with, why wouldn't Darth Maul just pitch Kenobi into the shaft? He might survive a slam and a fall, but he's not going to survive being flung around like a rag doll.

[OddHat]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It just seems that the Star Wars movies are in some ways more realistic than the core Hero system as far as how much power it takes to fling someone versus knock the wind out of them; the damage we see is far disproportionate to the lifting STR we see' date=' in Hero terms. I mean, if he had 35 STR to work with, why wouldn't Darth Maul just pitch Kenobi into the shaft? He might survive a slam and a fall, but he's not going to survive being flung around like a rag doll.[/quote']

 

Jedi have limited flight, or superleap+gliding+clinging, depending on how you stat it out. Makes sense that they'd use it to resist being thrown around excessively, which would make it a sub-optimal tactic in Jedi vs Jedi combat, and therefore something most Jedi wouldn't bother trying.

 

Besides, "Why didn't [Character[ do [Action]" is a tricky question when it comes to superpowers. Often, the answer is "Because it would have made the picture an hour shorter".

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Jedi have limited flight, or superleap+gliding+clinging, depending on how you stat it out. Makes sense that they'd use it to resist being thrown around excessively, which would make it a sub-optimal tactic in Jedi vs Jedi combat, and therefore something most Jedi wouldn't bother trying.

 

Besides, "Why didn't [Character[ do [Action]" is a tricky question when it comes to superpowers. Often, the answer is "Because it would have made the picture an hour shorter".

 

Except we do see Jedi using Telekinesis in combat. Dooku does it in RotS against Kenobi, and Kenobi and Anakin try it in their final battle. In this case, the canon provides sufficient evidence of what is possible.

 

Another issue with using Grapple is the difficulty of making the attack roll. A force slam, while simple, is brutal and seemingly impossible to simply dodge or avoid. It never misses in the entire prequel trilogy that I can detect. Hence, AoE (one hex). If AoE (one hex) is applied to Telekinesis, without Affects Whole Object so it can "punch" an opponent as Maul does to Kenobi, then we are still left with trying to explain the knockdown. If it does a grab and throw, we have to explain the damage of the attack (particularly if they don't seem to get knocked very far) as well as the STR involved. It also raises questions like, "Why didn't Kenobi just lift and squeeze the guards instead of dropping a huge object on them?"

 

It appears to me that the effect of the power is to strike a target with enough power to knock them off their feet.

[OddHat]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Except we do see Jedi using Telekinesis in combat. Dooku does it in RotS against Kenobi' date=' and Kenobi and Anakin try it in their final battle. In this case, the canon provides sufficient evidence of what is possible.[/quote']

 

Which leaves us with "He didn't do it because it either would have shortened the movie / because he didn't choose to"

 

Not saying that an EB with a custom "Does Knockdown" advantage isn't a valid way to interpret the power; just pointing out that it's just one option (and noting that it's not the option I'd use).

 

As to "Why didn't Kenobi...", same answer as with any other fictional character. The writer/director didn't want it that way.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Except we do see Jedi using Telekinesis in combat. Dooku does it in RotS against Kenobi, and Kenobi and Anakin try it in their final battle. In this case, the canon provides sufficient evidence of what is possible.

 

Another issue with using Grapple is the difficulty of making the attack roll. A force slam, while simple, is brutal and seemingly impossible to simply dodge or avoid. It never misses in the entire prequel trilogy that I can detect. Hence, AoE (one hex). If AoE (one hex) is applied to Telekinesis, without Affects Whole Object so it can "punch" an opponent as Maul does to Kenobi, then we are still left with trying to explain the knockdown. If it does a grab and throw, we have to explain the damage of the attack (particularly if they don't seem to get knocked very far) as well as the STR involved. It also raises questions like, "Why didn't Kenobi just lift and squeeze the guards instead of dropping a huge object on them?"

 

It appears to me that the effect of the power is to strike a target with enough power to knock them off their feet.

 

 

I've always been of the opinion that Jedi TK has 2 varieties: Combat (Instant) and Non-Combat (Constant).

 

The Combat variety appears to be limited to effects that can be completed in one action (Phase)*. The easiest way to do this would be to limit the Combat TK to ~ 20 STR plus Ranged Martial Arts.

* Vader's 'Force' choke hold seems to be the lone exception. However, it was never actually used in a combat situation.

 

The Non-Combat variety allows far more creative and powerful effects. This is easily achieved by buying bonus +X STR TK with different Limitations (like Extra Time).

 

Example combination of TK and Martial Art:

 

30 Jedi TK: Basic Telekinesis (20 STR), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; -0 Limitation: Can Be Blocked (If Perceivable); +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; -0 Limitation: Visible to Mental Sense Group; +1) (75 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) 7

Notes: Advanced practitioners should be allowed to: 1) Buy off the Instant and Affects Whole Object Limitations by way of a seperate Naked Power with its own set of Limitations. 2) Purchase additional bonus TK STR with additional Limitations.

 

Plus

 

Jedi TK Arts: Basic

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on *

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls

5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 40 STR to take weapon away

 

Notes: The Martial Grab in this case is an 'Instant' ability only used to setup the Martial Throw unless the character buys off the the TK Limitation.The Martial Grab and Martial Throw can be done in the same Phase and combined with Sweep vs. multiple targets (like multiple Combat Droids).

 

Jedi TK Arts: Advanced

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND

4 Crush +0 +0 10d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It just seems that the Star Wars movies are in some ways more realistic than the core Hero system as far as how much power it takes to fling someone versus knock the wind out of them; the damage we see is far disproportionate to the lifting STR we see' date=' in Hero terms. I mean, if he had 35 STR to work with, why wouldn't Darth Maul just pitch Kenobi into the shaft? He might survive a slam and a fall, but he's not going to survive being flung around like a rag doll.[/quote']

 

 

Ok, so I read the book after seeing the movie. Yeah, I know... Super-Dork.

 

Anyway... I'm sure we all remember in the movie Maul stands over the top of the pit and showers Kenobi with sparks from his lightsaber.

 

I thought to myself, "Dude! Just force-push his arse into oblivion! WTF?"

It made little sense to me at that point.

 

But in the book, it oh so briefly talked about how Maul was gloating over his far superior saber prowess and how before he killed the jedi whelp he wanted to make sure he understood how completley and utterly he was defeated.

 

Maul understimated Kenobi.

And got ganked by a far less skilled oponent.

 

And like was already stated... If Maul HAD force-pushed Obi, that would've made for a much shorter movie! (Heck short series not to mention continuity issues!)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Here's a couple more maneuvers that might fit with a TK based MArt.

 

4 Shove +0 +0 45 STR to Shove

4 Root +0 +0 45 STR to resist Shove; Block, Abort

 

(Shove is an optional maneuver from UMA page 149.)

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

The core issue isn't whether Maul should have done something or the other, but rather that he did use force slam, and it did not generate a lot of distance. For that matter, the droids affected by Qui Gon ended up in a heap. I just don't see this as being consistent with a telekinetic grab and throw. The force slam should do damage, possibly knock down the foe... not grab the foe, toss him, then do damage by him hitting a wall. That's just not how the power works.

 

If you're using TK to actually "punch" someone, then you need to raise the OCV to insanely high levels, and do at least 7-8 BODY in one hit to impair and Knockdown. That would give most of the Jedi in the arena a TK STR of around 50 (or 40 if you add AP to this monstrosity). Incidentally, 40 TK STR with AP and Area of Effect (one hex) is 120 Active Points. It's a pretty cool move, but you know what? I'm not really seeing 120 Active Points there.

 

TK with Ranged Martial Arts is a possibility, but doesn't address the very high OCV you would need to simulate the effect, at least not that I'm seeing. And I don't think building a lot of combat skill levels into TK really reflects the Jedi we see on screen very well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

...

 

TK with Ranged Martial Arts is a possibility, but doesn't address the very high OCV you would need to simulate the effect, at least not that I'm seeing. And I don't think building a lot of combat skill levels into TK really reflects the Jedi we see on screen very well.

 

The OCV issue is mostly taken care of by the AOE 1 Hex Accurate. And I already suggested allowing more experienced practitioners the option of buying off the Affects Whole Object Limitation. Combine that with a typical Martial Strike and you suddenly have a 10d6 attack (with very little increase in "Active Cost" of the TK.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I'd buy the Force Slam as a Physical Blast. I would rule that Star Wars is suitably 'superheroic' that knockback would be the default, not knockdown, though you could buy it Does Knockback if you decide otherwise. It's just an instant 'thing'; you go 'push' and things get hit and knocked flat. The PB can also be easily spread for hitting multiple targets.

 

Then you have regular TK for Move Object, and a Continuous RKA for Force Grip (Vader's Choke, Mace dismantling droids in Clone Wars, and so forth).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I see some problems with buying Energy Blast or RKA as powers as opposed to Martial Art maneuvers. The movies portray the use of the Force for direct violence vs. sentient beings as a Dark (evil) thing. Do we ever see a Jedi use such abilities against anything other than a Droid? I don't think so. Is it a limitation of the Force? No. It is definitely a Psych Lim. Building the effects via Martial Arts maneuvers costing 3-5 points also fits the 'easier' description of the 'Dark Side' imho.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

TK slam seems to be there mainly to take out mooks. We can assume mooks have much lower DCV than main characters. Maybe it is only used against mooks because it has a good chance of missing against other Jedi/Sith?

 

TK seems sensible and would probably work well here, but I'm always desperately confused by TK.

 

Why, for instance, should you be able to rip your way out of TK with strength, and why, when you throw someone (a normal weight character thrown with 40 STR TK goes 24") using TK, how should you work out the damage? Based on TK STR or on distance thrown?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Well, depends on how far you want to take the canon. Assuming that games written by Lucas Arts count, that also gives me: KOTOR, KOTOR II, Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, JK: Outcast and JK: Academy.

 

In most of those cases, using Force Push against another Jedi was pretty much useless; their own Force based defenses shrugged off most low-power attacks. Insofar as "How effective was it?" Well, you could in fact push anyone anywhere, which to me implies a TK in its "STR at Range" mode, to hit someone and send them flying. It does deal damage, but mostly it just pushes you and knocks you down. However, if the enemy Jedi was dumb enough to take to the skies (using Force Leap) then they became Push fodder (and I saw many Jedi take a lovely fall down a dramatically placed cliff).

 

Mass Effect uses a nearly identical system, although its Push does more actual physical damage than the canon representation of Force Push. Did it take droids apart? Yes, but the droids didn't seem to have much BODY or DEF either. You stare at 'em hard enough and they fall apart. So it's a matter of flavor. I'd just use a modified TK; I don't see EB really applying here.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It's also possible to build many druids with a vulnerability to Force Push and similar attacks as a way of explaining why it's more effective against them than living foes.

[OddHat]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

It's also possible to build many druids with a vulnerability to Force Push and similar attacks as a way of explaining why it's more effective against them than living foes.

 

Damn undead Druids, stinkin' up the galaxy. Evil tree hugging zombie bastards...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Damn undead Druids' date=' stinkin' up the galaxy. Evil tree hugging zombie bastards...[/quote']

 

*wanders in, knocking grave dirt off of his clothes*

 

Hey guys, what's... going... on... with you...? Why is everyone looking at me like that? And what's that queer sensation? Oddhat, are you changing my disads again?!

[Bloodstone]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Damn undead Druids' date=' stinkin' up the galaxy. Evil tree hugging zombie bastards...[/quote']

 

That typo is an abomination!

 

I think I want to play one...

[pawsplay]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

Do we ever see a Jedi use such abilities against anything other than a Droid?

 

We see Darth Maul knock the snot out of Kenobi. We also see Anakin smack around some Geonosians that way. Finally, Yoda, clobbers Sidious's guards in their final confrontation.

 

It's also possible to classify the Yoda-Sidious pushing contest and the Kenobi-Skywalker fight as force slams.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How To Build: Jedi Force Slam

 

I see some problems with buying Energy Blast or RKA as powers as opposed to Martial Art maneuvers. The movies portray the use of the Force for direct violence vs. sentient beings as a Dark (evil) thing. Do we ever see a Jedi use such abilities against anything other than a Droid? I don't think so. Is it a limitation of the Force? No. It is definitely a Psych Lim. Building the effects via Martial Arts maneuvers costing 3-5 points also fits the 'easier' description of the 'Dark Side' imho.

 

I can't see see how doing 12d6 via straight EB vs. 12d6 through middlin' TK and Martial Arts is any less 'dark'. 12d6 is 12d6, dealing Body is dealing Body.

 

The whole 'dark side' thing is poorly explained, at any rate (and gets even more muddled if you consider novels). I think of it more that using the Force to cause UNDUE harm is the evil part. If someone's trying to blast your face off, by all means, slam him, not a dark act. You're defending yourself and others. If you slam someone for the sake of intimidation, then you're in pushing it.

 

I think of the term 'fall to the dark side' as merely being a metaphor along the lines of 'the devil made me do it'; a turn of phrase at best, at worst an excuse for simply being irresponsible with power.