Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

[lensman]

I am building a Dispel for a Divine use character, but I want to define the Dispel working against, not one power, but one advantage; The advantage being Uncontrolled.

 

To be clear, the Advantage: Any single Power of [sFX], one at a time, is not what I am talking about.

 

 

I want the target of the Dispel to be any Power with the Uncontrolled Advantage. Normally you choose a Power that is the target of Dispel.

 

Broadly acceptable to Herodom at large, or not?

[Gideon]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

well, to be honest I'm not sure I understand what the use of such a power would be. Is the idea to make an uncontrolled power controlled?

 

I'm not sure how that would work, if it is legal, or what the point of it would be.

 

Please explain more.

[lensman]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

well, to be honest I'm not sure I understand what the use of such a power would be. Is the idea to make an uncontrolled power controlled?

 

I'm not sure how that would work, if it is legal, or what the point of it would be.

 

Please explain more.

 

If I read your post correctly, I am not trying to target just the Uncontrolled Adv. of a Power.

 

The Dispel would only work against powers with the Uncontrolled Adv. and then dispel, or not, the whole effect.

 

It is not a case of eliminating the Uncontrolled adv. from the rest of the Power.

 

Clearer?

[pawsplay]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Sounds like a closely related group of powers, +1/4. But what's the SFX? What kind of power is this?

[lensman]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Sounds like a closely related group of powers' date=' +1/4. But what's the SFX? What kind of power is this?[/quote']

 

The power, not the mechanic, is a divine SFX to free an area or person of a on-going continuing effect (Curse, enchantment, spell, etc.)

 

So instead of picking, drain, suppress or Mind Control I picked Uncontrolled because that is what you need for a lasting prolonged effect of the kind of power I wanted the Dispel to work against.

[pawsplay]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

That just sounds like Dispel, any one magical effect one at a time, to me. Transform, Persistent Powers, Mind Control, and Drains with really slow recovery are just a few kinds of curses this proposed power won't work against.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

If the magical effect is curse and those are defined as curses, it would work.

 

If you have dispel that works against fire, it will work against anything that is defined as fire -- force fields, damage shields, flight, etc.

 

Remember when you target special effects, it the effects that are important not the Powers and Advantages used to build them.

 

At least, that's how I've always interpreted it

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

The power, not the mechanic, is a divine SFX to free an area or person of a on-going continuing effect (Curse, enchantment, spell, etc.)

 

So instead of picking, drain, suppress or Mind Control I picked Uncontrolled because that is what you need for a lasting prolonged effect of the kind of power I wanted the Dispel to work against.

 

Actually Uncontrolled is only one of a number of ways to accomplish such an effect, so your initial premise is false.

 

That aside, you would just define the expanded effect advantage correctly (broadly and in SFX terms), as others have indicated, rather than trying to revert to metagame language to single out an actual mechanic by name.

[GamePhil]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Dispel is an odd duck because it works against Powers, not special effects, in its basic form, but the Advantage write-up forces you to pick a special effect. So there is precedent in the rules for using the Power against a meta-gaming concept, though not the Advantage.

 

If what you're trying to get is a Dispel against on-going effects, because your character's divine power allows him to release people from continuing debilitation whether they are diseases, curses, or being set on fire, I'd be inclined to allow it, though there may be an increase in the Advantage value involved. I can't think of a good and simple description of it at the moment, however.

[Gideon]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Ok, I understand now.

 

The problem with this (as Killer Shrike already pointed out), is that not every continuous power is uncontrolled.

 

Change Environment, Drain, Mind Control, Mental Illusion, Transfer and Transform do not need to be bought with the Uncontrolled advantage, but they are still continuing effects that require neither concentration nor continued end.

 

So while I would say that it is possible to buy a dispel VS powers with the uncontrolled advantage, I think it is a waste.

 

You need to pick a specific (even if broad) SFX for your dispel to work against for it to be of any real use. I would pick magic personally, because I don't see the power you are talking about being able to dispel napalm (built as uncontrolled, continuous, Sticky, RKA) or bio-energy leeching (built as transfer end to end).

[GamePhil]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

The power, not the mechanic, is a divine SFX to free an area or person of a on-going continuing effect (Curse, enchantment, spell, etc.)

 

So instead of picking, drain, suppress or Mind Control I picked Uncontrolled because that is what you need for a lasting prolonged effect of the kind of power I wanted the Dispel to work against.

 

What you describe here I would buy as Dispel, vs. any Magical effect 1 at a time, Only To End Continuing Effects (-1/2, maybe). It's only if you want a broader special effect than magic that it becomes muddy.

[Kdansky]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Dispel, Against any Magical Effect at a time (+0) [or +1/4 if there are other similar things too like "Demon Powers"], only to end continuing effects (-1).

[JmOz]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

only magical is the +1/4 level of advantage not +0

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Generally it is a bad idea to have a game mechanic as the 'sfx' of an expanded adjustment power. You want to be able to break curses and enchantments? Why not define the sfx as 'curses and enchantments'? Then it doesn't matter how they are built. I might even let it work against stuff like transforms (not a strickly rules legal use, but it sounds about right), another popular way to accomplish curses. If your GM won't allow that, you need a transform based counter-curse. Either you then need a detect to see how the curse was created, or you need to link the counter curse to the dispel, so that it works in conjunction with it.

[pawsplay]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

What you describe here I would buy as Dispel' date=' vs. any Magical effect 1 at a time, Only To End Continuing Effects (-1/2, maybe). It's only if you want a broader special effect than magic that it becomes muddy.[/quote']

 

I think you mean Only to End Continuing Effects (-0). What other kinds of effects do you dispel?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Sure, I'll be the dissenting opinion... why not?

 

I'd handwave it, Pete.

 

In my opinion, if you bought a "normal" Dispel (say, Dispel vs. Darkness), and put a Limitation on it that it only worked vs. Darkness that also had Uncontrolled on it, I'd make that at least a -1.5 Limitation... maybe -2, because Uncontrolled just isn't all that common. That being the case, I don't think it's abusive to just say, "Instead of this working against one Power regardless of what Advantages might be on it, it works against Uncontrolled Powers only, regardless of what the base Power might be."

 

No Advantage cost, no Limitation savings, just pure Handwavium swapping out the base target of the Dispel.

[pawsplay]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

I don't think we disagree on the legality. I think the consensus was just that this is not how you would want to build the desired power.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

I don't think we disagree on the legality. I think the consensus was just that this is not how you would want to build the desired power.

Well' date=' I'd say the consensus was that this isn't how [i']most people[/i] would want to build the desired power. Without commenting on whether building from mechanics is the 'right' way to build compared to building from SFX, and with the unspoken assumption that he could convince me that building from mechanics was the right way to go for this power, I'm just saying that I think his proposal is reasonable from a cost standpoint. I'd let him target "any Power with this Advantage" instead of "this Power with any Advantage," at no change in price.

[lensman]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Derek Hiemforth

Bless you Derek for seeing exactly the question I was posing and providing a cogent answer.

 

“I'd let him target "any Power with this Advantage" instead of "this Power with any Advantage,"."

 

Exactly the language I should have used to describe my take.

 

Thanks

 

Gideon

“The problem with this (as Killer Shrike already pointed out), is that not every continuous power is uncontrolled.”

 

That is correct, but KS missed my point. Continuous Powers are not usually maintainable over long periods of time; they have LOS problems END problems etc.

If you just ignore my question and looked purely at SFX, then yes many powers or mechanics could be Curses, enchantments etc. without being Uncontrolled.

 

Looking at the system in totality, I agree that a specific Dispel targeted against "any Power with this Advantage" would be a waste.

However, I will buy it as extra dice of Dispel on the side to throw against powers that do have Uncontrolled on top of a Dispel that effects Any power of (Evil) 1 at a time)

 

GamePhil

“Only To End Continuing Effects (-1/2, maybe)”

 

Neat, I like it, will use it. Thanks.

 

Kdansky

“only to end continuing effects (-1).”

 

Not sure what the Limit is worth, but great minds think alike. Thanks.

 

Sean Waters

 

“You want to be able to break curses and enchantments? Why not define the sfx as 'curses and enchantments'?”

 

I agree with you except I don’t want to write a legal document explaining every instance of what that covers. I am wary of the Idols of the Marketplace.

 

The GM could just say “this is a Corruption” really it could be anything that ios not X, where X is what I have chosen to be my SFX.

 

But I agree with you that targeted SFX goes a long way in defining the power.

 

Pawsplay

“What other kinds of effects do you dispel?”

 

Instant effects

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Gideon

“The problem with this (as Killer Shrike already pointed out), is that not every continuous power is uncontrolled.”

 

That is correct, but KS missed my point. Continuous Powers are not usually maintainable over long periods of time; they have LOS problems END problems etc.

If you just ignore my question and looked purely at SFX, then yes many powers or mechanics could be Curses, enchantments etc. without being Uncontrolled.

 

No, you are missing mine. There is more than one way to make a long term effect than Uncontrolled.

 

You are not considering effects that are built on Continuing Charges, effects that make long term changes via Transform, effects that make long term changes via Change Environment with the Long Lasting Adder, or effects that cost 0 END and don't require LOS to maintain but have lasting effects such as Aid with a distended Fade Rate and many constructs built around UBO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

.................

Sean Waters

 

“You want to be able to break curses and enchantments? Why not define the sfx as 'curses and enchantments'?”

 

I agree with you except I don’t want to write a legal document explaining every instance of what that covers. I am wary of the Idols of the Marketplace.

 

The GM could just say “this is a Corruption” really it could be anything that ios not X, where X is what I have chosen to be my SFX.

 

But I agree with you that targeted SFX goes a long way in defining the power.

 

..................

 

I think if the GM is out to mess with you, you're in trouble anyway

 

The problem with designing a curse breaker is the many ways in which a curse can be created in Hero, not all of which are susceptible to dispel.

 

There is transform (You are a pig! Oh, cheers, Circe. Oink) or the simple curse of ugliness (built as a drain COM). I'm sure a cunning GM could come up with others, perhaps based on mind control, or MI. All of them are instant powers, none can (theoretically) be dispelled after they have taken effect.

 

I think you are better off agreeing with your GM how magic works in your world. If, for instance, a 'curse breaker' power is appropriate then everything built as a curse, however it is built, could be affected by a Dispel Curse. For instance, transform and adjustment attacks would be built with the limitation:

 

Curse broken if subject targeted by a dispel that overcomes the AP of the original effect -1/2 (or whatever)

 

That way even 'instant' effects are subject to curse breaking after the event. The limitation over rides the basic rule. Of course if your GM is not willing to adopt a consistent approach, maybe it is time to buy a curse instead. And target the GM.

 

As an aside, IMO adjustment powers simply don't work well if they work against game mechanics. Derek mentioned 'Dispel Darkness'. The sfx might be a great light that casts the darkness aside. OK if the sfx of the darkness is 'stealing the energy of photons' or somesuch - you can see how something with enough energy might overcome that. OTOH if it is generating for, then a bright light is simply going to make it brighter, you still can't see anything, maybe the odd silhouette, and if the sfx of the darkness is that everyone's eyes develop cataracts, bright light really won't help.

 

Even though it is perfectly legal it makes very little sense. In a fantasy world, where such effects are usually created by magic, it makes sense that a dispel magic effect (whether any magic or a particular type) would generally work, but might not if the darkness has been generated by a mundane smoke grenade, for example.

 

I really do think the best approach is to agree with the GM a consistent approach to building spells, and trust him or her not to simply get around your spells with odd builds.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

I completely agree with Derek - handwave it. It's pretty much equivalent to a regular Dispel, only "turned sideways". It effects a narrow cross-section of powers, rather than any permutation of one power. If you want to bit a bit more technical with it, you could give it an Advantage and a Limitation that cancel each other out. "Any one Power" and "Only Uncontrolled Powers". I'd have no problem allowing it into my games.

[Gideon]

There is a problem with the power the OP has said he wants that I had initially overlooked.

 

Yes, you can have a dispel against all powers with Advantage X. That isn't the problem.

 

The problem is that you cannot by RAW dispel an instantaneous effect.

 

Dispel cannot affect the lasting effects of Instant Powers. For example, a character cannot use Dispel to "heal" the damage caused by an Energy Blast, reverse a Transform, or get rid of an Existing Entangle. Energy Blast, Transform, and Entangle are Instant Powers, and once they've been used and taken effect, there's nothing for the Dispel to "turn off."

 

So, while there is no issue with the build part of the power, there is a problem with the SFX of the power.

 

The OP stated that he wanted a power that could break enchantments, curses and the like. The issue with this is that the traditional curse of "I turn you into a frog" is a transform. So regardless of how the dispel is built, if the transform is not built with continuous (which would be a waste IMO), it fails.

 

In other words: unless the OP's GM is willing to house rule Dispels, it doesn't matter how the dispel is built. It can never target Aids, Drains, Entangles, Flashes, Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Summons, Transfers, or Transforms.

 

There is one exception to this rule (according to the book), and that is if the character has a held action, he can stop the power before it has an effect. But again... if one of the powers I listed has already effected someone dispel won't fix it.

[lensman]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Excellant points Gideon.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

To end those effects, one has to buy an Aid / Heal

Drains, Flashes?

 

What against

Aid, Transfers, or Transforms

 

What against

Mental Illusions, Mind Control, or other Menal powers

(Massive Aid to help with breakout roll? But then it does not force a new Breakout roll

 

Killing attack for

Entangles, Summons

 

How does one end these effects in Hero?

 

What is OP? Original Post er?

[Gideon]

Re: Dispel, not a single power but a single Adv.

 

Excellant points Gideon.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

To end those effects, one has to buy an Aid / Heal

Drains, Flashes?

 

What against

Aid, Transfers, or Transforms

 

What against

Mental Illusions, Mind Control, or other Menal powers

(Massive Aid to help with breakout roll? But then it does not force a new Breakout roll

 

Killing attack for

Entangles, Summons

 

How does one end these effects in Hero?

 

What is OP? Original Post er?

 

Yes OP is "original poster"

 

Well, I can only tell you how it works in the games I play in.

 

For Aids, Drains and Transfers, you use heal or aid.

 

For Mental powers you use the power to defeat itself.

 

In one game a character plays a Japanese mage. The player wanted her to be able to break possession/ domination effects. The GM told the player that the character needed to buy Mind Control to break people out of possession/ dominations, because they were (normally) built as Mind Control themselves.

 

For Transform, you again use transform. Most likely described as: "turn back to your normal self", or something similar.

 

For entangles use anything that deals it damage.

 

For Summons, I don't actually know. Strangely I've never actually been in a situation where "unsummoning" ever came up. Now, of course killing the summoned creature will end the effect, but possibly not in the way you intended.

 

Do remember, Transforms (and sometimes summons) have a "back door" means of breaking them, like kissing the prince/princess, or drinking the from the "fountain of forever".