Repeated Attempts

[hammersickle59]

Is there a general rule somewhere that covers when a charcter can make another attempt at something once he has failed it? This could apply to skills, powers etc...

 

I had a player use Telepathy, failed. tried again, failed, tried again, failed tried again...succeeded. It had a bad feel, maybe I should have tacked on a -1 each time. He had the time and END to keep trying. Basically their was nothing the target could do so he kept trying. I dont think its too powerful or anything it just had a bad feel. Thoughts?

 

Oooh..maybe i should use the time chart. you can try again in 1 turn...then a minute...then 5 minutes etc..

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

Unless otherwise stated in the description the character can try every segment he has an action.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

RE: Skills, see "Failed Skill Rolls" 5ER p43

 

I believe the same text is in 5E.

 

The Ultimate Skill goes into more detailed information of Repeated Attempts on a Skill-by-Skill basis.

 

For most things the GM determines how many times you can try something before declaring it Undoable. Otherwise you can try and try again.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

Is there a general rule somewhere that covers when a charcter can make another attempt at something once he has failed it? This could apply to skills, powers etc...

 

I had a player use Telepathy, failed. tried again, failed, tried again, failed tried again...succeeded. It had a bad feel, maybe I should have tacked on a -1 each time. He had the time and END to keep trying. Basically their was nothing the target could do so he kept trying. I dont think its too powerful or anything it just had a bad feel. Thoughts?

 

Oooh..maybe i should use the time chart. you can try again in 1 turn...then a minute...then 5 minutes etc..

 

This is an issue I have with many systems. Due to the fact that it is statistically possible to succeed it is possible to simply keep trying until you succeed or until you fail.

 

I prefer to play the system in that when the player tries (and has plenty of time to keep trying) then the initial roll indicates whether he has a success, will never succeed or how long he will have to keep trying until he succeeds.

 

I like the suggestion of using the time chart - I would rule that a failure will require extra time to succeed if the character continues with his efforts. "Your telepathy slides across the surface of his mind and his fear obscures your sense. It is possible that you will find what you are looking for but you can tell it will be at least an hour before you do".

 

This allows the character to make decisions and avoids the game becoming an exercise in dice rolling, hoping for a lucky break...

 

Doc

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

The rule of thumb I've had on tasks I didn't see as trivial is "you can't do it again until you can improve your success chance". You'll note the time chart is one way to do that...

[rjcurrie]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

For me, with something like Telepathy, if the character has a reasonable length of time to keep trying until they succeed (and they are likely to succed eventually -- probably greater than 20% or so chance of success), I just tend to let them succeed with the to-hit roll automatically. In a more time-sensitive situation, I'm not sure what I would do -- probably let them roll every phase if it's in combat time or likely to drop into combat time. Out of combat, I might still let them have the to-hit automatically (unless it's impossible for them to hit) because even if they need a 3-, that's 1 in 216 -- assuming a SPD of 2 (to let them recover the END spent) that's 108 turns or about 22 minutes.

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

For me' date=' with something like Telepathy, if the character has a reasonable length of time to keep trying until they succeed (and they are likely to succed eventually -- probably greater than 20% or so chance of success), I just tend to let them succeed with the to-hit roll automatically. In a more time-sensitive situation, I'm not sure what I would do -- probably let them roll every phase if it's in combat time or likely to drop into combat time. Out of combat, I might still let them have the to-hit automatically (unless it's impossible for them to hit) because even if they need a 3-, that's 1 in 216 -- assuming a SPD of 2 (to let them recover the END spent) that's 108 turns or about 22 minutes.[/quote']

 

Well, the big issue usually is with information gathering powers and the like like this, and turns on whether you want there to be only two classes of people: the immune and the transparent. If you let unlimited rerolls, given non-tactical time, almost everyone is transparent to even a moderate powered telepath. This tends to be an even bigger problem with Mind Scan, where if you let it be used unlimitedly, it becomes the all-purpose location tool once someone knows anything about their target, as they'll make the rolls in a very short time on larger time scales statistically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

Attacking with telepathy is like attacking with a punch: Eventually even Mr Incompetent is going to hit. The time chart is an attractive idea but doesn't really make any more sense than ruling that if you misswith a punch you can't try again for a minute (or whatever).

 

Mind you, with telepathy there is far more to succeeding than simply hitting.

 

I'm assuming if the helpless target avoided the telepathic intrusion for so long they have significant EGO; don't forget that means that they will probably have a very decent breakout roll, and it will be hard to read deeper levels of memories.

 

I've also suggested previously that we introduce a few new skills that allow people to misdirect telepathic attempts - for example you could ahve a skill called 'Misdirect' that enables the suer to 'consciously' think misleading thoughts - so if a relatively low level of telepathic intrusion is accomplished - and the target is aware and using the skill - then they can 'think a lie'. this wouldn't work (at least not without massive penalties) for deeper elvels of memory.

[Markdoc]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

The rule of thumb I've had on tasks I didn't see as trivial is "you can't do it again until you can improve your success chance". You'll note the time chart is one way to do that...

 

This is exactly what I do - with the exception of combat rolls, where you can keep rolling as long as you have the opportunity.

 

That means that if the "heroes" have a goon tied up and are taking a day or two using telepathy on him, eventually they are going to get a maximum or near maximum roll. In that case, I may whack Dr. Mindream with some LTE loss, but I usually handwave the 216 dice rolls and just say "OK, it takes an hour but eventually you extract the information that Foxbat is gaining access through a dimensional portal hidden in the ice-cream freezer."

 

A similar - but unrelated - bug for me is the case where you ask the players to make a roll - for example a PER roll - and 7 of them fail it, but the 8th rolls a "3" or something. It adds a degree of additional arbitrariness I could do without. I often "bundle" rolls and ask for a roll for the party (often at a small bonus) - rather than a whole mass of rolls.

 

cheers, Mark

[Radar]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

Or they could just quit messin' around and Haymaker their telepathy.

 

Heh.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

The rule of thumb I've had on tasks I didn't see as trivial is "you can't do it again until you can improve your success chance". You'll note the time chart is one way to do that...

 

This is the standard ruling of the System regarding failed Skill Rolls.

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

Attacking with telepathy is like attacking with a punch: Eventually even Mr Incompetent is going to hit. The time chart is an attractive idea but doesn't really make any more sense than ruling that if you misswith a punch you can't try again for a minute (or whatever).

 

 

I don't find blind consistency a virtue here, since this sort of thing has far greater implications than most other single attacks; its no better than letting someone keep rolling their Computer skill until they penetrate the system they'll only get into on a 4-.

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

This is the standard ruling of the System regarding failed Skill Rolls.

 

Probably where I got it from; I've GMed Hero so much over the years its sometimes hard for me to remember where my houserules end and the book rules start (the fact that one of my houserules migrated into FRED doesn't help...)

[pawsplay]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

I don't find blind consistency a virtue here' date=' since this sort of thing has far greater implications than most other single attacks; its no better than letting someone keep rolling their Computer skill until they penetrate the system they'll only get into on a 4-.[/quote']

 

If you keep missing with the punch, you will get knocked out. If you keep trying to crack a system, you will get caught.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

I don't find blind consistency a virtue here' date=' since this sort of thing has far greater implications than most other single attacks; its no better than letting someone keep rolling their Computer skill until they penetrate the system they'll only get into on a 4-.[/quote']

 

I can't win, can I? Follow the rules they complain, make it up they complain

 

I do take the point, but th epoint I was making is that 'hitting' is only the first step in the process, like finding the file you want is the first step in the 'hacking' process: you still have to read it.

 

there should be a lot more skills involved with telepathy but I'd allow, absent a re-write, for instance, Acting (the skill) to be used to give misleading information to someone reading your mind as I would to someone talking to you. I'd probably also rule that if you failed enough times you started taking 'demoralisation' penalties, so you'd never get in, but that's just me, not anything , you know, rule-y.

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

If you keep missing with the punch' date=' you will get knocked out. If you keep trying to crack a system, you will get caught.[/quote']

 

Except you sometimes just don't care about getting caught; you abandon that computer and try somewhere else. You still shouldn't have a situation where simply forcing a couple hundred checks will always do the job in things, here or elsewhere where a single result is important.

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

I can't win, can I? Follow the rules they complain, make it up they complain

 

 

I'm just noting that a simple following of the rules here isn't necessarily benign.

 

 

I do take the point, but th epoint I was making is that 'hitting' is only the first step in the process, like finding the file you want is the first step in the 'hacking' process: you still have to read it.

 

there should be a lot more skills involved with telepathy but I'd allow, absent a re-write, for instance, Acting (the skill) to be used to give misleading information to someone reading your mind as I would to someone talking to you. I'd probably also rule that if you failed enough times you started taking

 

 

That probably is reasonable with surface thoughts, but it really doesn't make much sense with hidden thoughts, and certainly not once you've gotten down to memories.

[Mestopheles]

In my opionion:

If you don't want a player re-trying ad infinitum to succeed where it's not reasonable or in keeping with your plot, impose consequences for failure, fudge the difficulty, or give them an explained or unexplained failure that makes it clear further attempts will fail as well.

 

If no reason exists for preventing the further attempts (including common sense), just let them keep trying.

[mabalmer]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

I realize that I'm about as newbish as it gets, but I pretty much almost -exclusively- lurk.

 

In this case, we're comparing two different mechanics - skill rolls and powers that roll damage dice. Note that what I say here is just my interpretation of how things work; if you disagree with me, that's fine. I'm a bit long-winded on it, but I'm just trying to explain my thought processes.

 

Since Telepathy rolls damage dice, the trick is going to come down to three things for me:

• Can the character breach the defenses of his target?
  
• If the character can breach said defenses, is it enough to get any appreciable effect, or is it so minor as to be pointless?
  
• Does the character have a reasonable chance to hit the target with said power?

For the first, that's just checking dice vs. defense. Same for the second. Even if the character yahtzees the roll and rolls 6s on everything, can he have any kind of reasonable effect?

 

And as for the last, I'd say that anything below an 6- chance to hit is probably not worth it in terms of "reasonableness" - It's possible, albeit unlikely to nail 7- rolls and even 6- -- but when you start getting 5- and less, it becomes an exercise in futility.

 

That's for powers. Skills, which is what a lot of people keep bringing up, is a completely different beast. Powers don't have a "base time to activate" in the same sense as a Skill does, unless there's a Advantage/Limitation on them to represent it (like Extra Time or Delayed Effect or such), and even then, you can't push those activation times up the Time Chart except in very specific circumstances (spellcasting is about the only thing I can think of).

 

With a Skill, I typically consider it in how much time the character wants to waste ICly on a skill roll. I might let him retry a single failed roll at no penalty in some circumstances, but that's skill-dependent. Something like Deduction or a KS, even if it was failed by a single point, IMO gets no re-roll without the appearance of new information to the equation, and then it allows a reroll at the standard base time. If he wants to spend extra time to research? Sure, I'll give time chart bonuses. If he wants to hurry? Penalties come into play.

 

Skills like Climbing, Acrobatics, and such, IMO, would allow immediate rerolls of a failed roll, because they are, in a sense, a singular attempt. Most DEX-based skills would fall into this category.

 

Skills such as KSs, SSs, Deduction, and any other INT-based skill would be permissible in circumstances largely up to the GM's discretion. Time chart bonuses or penalties would accrue in any case.

 

Skills like Conversation, Oratory, Persuasion, and other PRE-based skills would also be rerollable, but potentially with penalties (to represent the gaffe made earlier). Base Time might come into play on certain things (e.g. Seduction) along with penalties/bonuses as necessary, but usually, these are one-off skills just like DEX-based, IMO.

 

So...more-or-less, that's my opinion on the topic.

 

That, and $0.75 will get you a cup of coffee down at your local diner.

[JmOz]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

For skills I assume they always work out of combat, the only question is amount of time

 

I set a base time for a job (Let's say 5 min to fix a bicicle chain)

 

I allow the character to roll his mechanics roll, by every one point he fails by it takes one line on the time chart (So a failure by 2 means a 5 min job took an hour)

 

For every 3 it suceeds by reduce time by one line (So succed by 3 it took 1 minute)

 

Never came up powers like telepathy before, I think I will come up with SOMETHING for it, not sure what yet...

[Paragon]

Re: Repeated Attempts

 

For skills I assume they always work out of combat, the only question is amount of time

 

I set a base time for a job (Let's say 5 min to fix a bicicle chain)

 

I allow the character to roll his mechanics roll, by every one point he fails by it takes one line on the time chart (So a failure by 2 means a 5 min job took an hour)

 

For every 3 it suceeds by reduce time by one line (So succed by 3 it took 1 minute)

 

Never came up powers like telepathy before, I think I will come up with SOMETHING for it, not sure what yet...

 

While not identical on probability grounds, that's essentially a die-rolling simplified version of the "roll again when you have an additional +1" idea I mentioned.

 

Really, the only reason this is a question with things like Mind Scan and Telepathy is that they're built as attack powers, but what they really are is funky supersenses that happen to be interactive.