So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

[Silbeg]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

... At the expense of being a quite easily hittable object.

 

Sure, but that is why I prefaced it if you can take the hit...

 

Example, if you can take the hit, sometimes it is best to use either flight or STR to resist knockback.

 

It is pretty safe to assume that someone like Dr. Destroyer would be able to shrug off most attacks for a while... Or someone like Grond.

 

In fact, I would say that a typical brick (who already has a lower DCV) should always be bracing against Knockback, if he has the 1/2 phase to do it.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I agree. Here is some fun things I learned about KB and hero games systems if it was exponential.

 

With real physcs a bullet from a high power rifle would take -70 str to lift and a velocity of about 512"/segment. If it struck a man sized target that takes 10 STR to lift, the big a difference in Mass would result in no knockback in an completely elastic collision (no energy lost do to the deformation of either the target or projectile). This bullet would bounce off the target with essentially the same velocity it struck the target with 512".

 

Now lets say the projectile was the Superman who as a projectile took 10 STR to lift and he ran into a human size target say Bizarro. In a perfectly elastic collision, because the target and projectile have the same mass the target would stop moving, and the projectile would begin moving at the same velocity the projectile had before the collision. IE if Superman was traveling at say 512" per segment, then struck a target like Bizarro, Bizarro would now have 512" of velocity and Superman would be stopped.

 

This application of real world physics would cause bullets to do no KB, but larger projectiles like most Super Hero's use would do a lot (car's, rocks, Thor's Hammer, Cap's Shield, other characters...).

 

An interesting note is that if champions movement system was changed to be exponential, where movement would cost say 10 pts to double combat velocity and increase move through/by damage by 2d6 this would simplify a lot of things. First of all lets look at the bullet example. 512" of movement/segment would be 100 pts. Now a bullet that takes -70 STR to lift moving with 100 pts of movement would logically be a 30 point attack and would do almost no KB to a human size target (aren't high power rifles 2d6 RKA's?) Also KB becomes a simple chart based on how many points of movement are involved in the relative speed of a collision. Text me later and I'll include some excel spreadsheets with the math.

10 points to double combat velocity is logical; non-combat velocity could simply be a limitation on a movement power.

 

There is an alternate velocity damage chart in the main book that works off of KE (+2d6 per doubling of velocity), and velocity per turn. You'll find it near the area that deals with falling damage.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

10 points to double combat velocity is logical; non-combat velocity could simply be a limitation on a movement power.

 

There is an alternate velocity damage chart in the main book that works off of KE (+2d6 per doubling of velocity), and velocity per turn. You'll find it near the area that deals with falling damage.

 

Yeah, I actually found that chart for VLF back in 1999 and was using it in my 4th Ed game. I was excited when I saw it make it into 5th entirely unchanged. I used his calculations to study physics and learn how Mass and velocity could be calculated for damage.

 

I figure Noncombat movement could be purchased the same way it is now, it just takes extra time to get up to speed, and each NC level adds 2d6 for doubling velocity.

 

I think there should also be two other modifications to combat movement I didnt' include. First every DC used in a move through or move by could be a -1 CV. The Second involves turning which is a long discussion, but basically I think turning should be limited to 1 60 degree turn for a full combat move, and every time a player cuts their movement in half they should double the number of turns they can make. For example if a character has 32" of movement if they move 32" they can make one turn at the end of the 32" run. If they use 16" of movement they can make 2 turns, or 1 every 8". The reflects real world physics and gives players the option to purchase 5 point turn levels to cut the turn mode down. These 5 point levels reflect increased acce

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Yeah, I actually found that chart for VLF back in 1999 and was using it in my 4th Ed game. I was excited when I saw it make it into 5th entirely unchanged. I used his calculations to study physics and learn how Mass and velocity could be calculated for damage.

 

I figure Noncombat movement could be purchased the same way it is now, it just takes extra time to get up to speed, and each NC level adds 2d6 for doubling velocity.

 

I think there should also be two other modifications to combat movement I didnt' include. First every DC used in a move through or move by could be a -1 CV.

I can agree with that.

 

The Second involves turning which is a long discussion, but basically I think turning should be limited to 1 60 degree turn for a full combat move, and every time a player cuts their movement in half they should double the number of turns they can make. For example if a character has 32" of movement if they move 32" they can make one turn at the end of the 32" run. If they use 16" of movement they can make 2 turns, or 1 every 8". The reflects real world physics and gives players the option to purchase 5 point turn levels to cut the turn mode down. These 5 point levels reflect increased acce

 

I do have a problem with what you say above in that the centripetal force one experiences does not have a 1 to 1 relationship with velocity.

 

The formula is actually a = v^2 / R

 

(a is the "g force" from the turn, v is the velocity, and R is the turn radius)

 

If you double your velocity, then you need 4 times as much room to turn. And if you cut your velocity in half you'd end up with 1/4 turn radius.

 

If we went with a single 60 degree turn at 32" then things should progress as follows:

 

32" = 1 turn

16" = 4 turns

8" = 16 turns

 

(and you could add some middle values in there too, for example, 24" would get about 2 turns)

 

However, I'm not fully sold on the idea that everybody gets a single 60 turn as a base. My main problem is as follows: if we assume a low speed, then a single 60 degree turn per move seems fairly low. On the other hand, turning 60 degrees in a single action at extreme velocity would be quite a feat.

[Maur]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Plus, we're talking about combat velocity which is already slower than non-combat under the assumption that the person isn't just trying to go balls to the wall straight ahead. Just because the mini moves 8" straight ahead doesn't mean the character was moving perfectly straight. 2 meters is a lot of room to play around with while moving forward. You can easily juke side-to-side while running forward and not violate that distance laterally.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I can agree with that.

 

 

 

I do have a problem with what you say above in that the centripetal force one experiences does not have a 1 to 1 relationship with velocity.

 

The formula is actually a = v^2 / R

 

(a is the "g force" from the turn, v is the velocity, and R is the turn radius)

 

If you double your velocity, then you need 4 times as much room to turn. And if you cut your velocity in half you'd end up with 1/4 turn radius.

 

If we went with a single 60 degree turn at 32" then things should progress as follows:

 

32" = 1 turn

16" = 4 turns

8" = 16 turns

 

(and you could add some middle values in there too, for example, 24" would get about 2 turns)

 

However, I'm not fully sold on the idea that everybody gets a single 60 turn as a base. My main problem is as follows: if we assume a low speed, then a single 60 degree turn per move seems fairly low. On the other hand, turning 60 degrees in a single action at extreme velocity would be quite a feat.

 

 

Not bad, Warp9, but figure in time and you'll agree with me. You are right in that the turn will take only 1/4 the turn radius, but because you are traveling 1/2 the velocity it will take 2 times as long. Divide those 4 turns over 2 segments and you get 2 turns per segment.

 

The formula is Centripetal force includes mass and is (mass x velocity^2 )/ radius.

 

For an example assume a 100KG mass traveling at velocity of 32" with a 32" radius. (32^2*100)/32=3200 newtons to make that turn. Now cut the velocity to 16" and the radius to 1/4 8" (16^2*100)/8=3200 newtons. At 16" veleocity the projectile will travel 8" turn 60 degrees, travel 8" turn 60 degrees end a segement on the next segment travel 8" turn 60 degrees, travel 8" turn 60 degrees and complete the 32" of movement.

 

Funny thing is because of this formula I had realized long ago turn mode was tied to acceleration. The force required to accelerate from 0 to x velocity is the same force that would be required to travel at x velocity and make a turn with x radius.

 

If the adder that improves turn mode is tied to acceleration, this makes things really interesting in that a segment based movement system because improved turn mode/acceleration and Noncombat multipliers become mutually exclusive, you could purchase one or the other, not both.

 

What do I mean by that? Lots but ask me later when I have time to go into it.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Plus' date=' we're talking about combat velocity which is already slower than non-combat under the assumption that the person isn't just trying to go balls to the wall straight ahead. Just because the mini moves 8" straight ahead doesn't mean the character was moving perfectly straight. 2 meters is a lot of room to play around with while moving forward. You can easily juke side-to-side while running forward and not violate that distance laterally.[/quote']

 

Juking is one thing, turning is something else. On a segment based movement system I assume that combat velocity is the maximum displacement a character can make in 1 segment from a dead stop. This can be increased by purchasing improved acceleration/turn mode (see my other reply) but not the maximum velocity (noncombat speed). I haven't fully described this yet, so let me do that later.

 

I've spent a lot of time researching this system and haven't had the time to completely describe everything I've already taken into consideration. Whatever you think of I probably already know about it and have it covered, so if you have questions asked me before wasting your time trying to blow holes in something I've probably already handled. Ask let me know and I'll post it.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Not bad' date=' Warp9, but figure in time and you'll agree with me. [/quote']

 

Yes, I do agree, as I consider the time factor I see that you are correct.

 

It is clear you've thought this through better than I.

 

Excellent points!

[Maur]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The formula is Centripetal force includes mass and is (mass x velocity^2 )/ radius.

 

And as long as mass is constant, then it stops mattering when comparing two different velocities and/or two different radii as the ratio will cause it to drop out of the equation, heheh.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Funny thing is because of this formula I had realized long ago turn mode was tied to acceleration. The force required to accelerate from 0 to x velocity is the same force that would be required to travel at x velocity and make a turn with x radius.

That makes sense to me.

 

I concern here is that (it seems to me) many objects do no base their ability to turn on the same means they use to accelerate.

 

For example, airplanes use their wings to turn, but not to accelerate. I don't believe that putting a bigger jet engine in your plane makes it turn better.

 

The same example would also apply to something like a bicycle. Your ability to turn, at a given radius, at 10 mph, is not really based upon how strong your legs are.

 

Some objects would turn by the same means they use to accelerate, but not all.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

That makes sense to me.

 

I concern here is that (it seems to me) many objects do not base their ability to turn on the same means they use to accelerate.

 

For example, airplanes use their wings to turn, but not to accelerate. I don't believe that putting a bigger jet engine in your plane makes it turn better.

 

The same example would also apply to something like a bicycle. Your ability to turn, at a given radius, at 10 mph, is not really based upon how strong your legs are.

 

Some objects would turn by the same means they use to accelerate, but not all.

 

 

Your right. I just hadn't gotten that far yet as I'm not comfortable with the level of testing I've got to do on the ideas I've come up with. I'm considering 5 points could buy improved turning and 5 points could buy improved acceleration or a Non combat multiplier (these are mutually exclusive) instead of 5 points for improved acceleration and turning, or 5 points for a non combat multiplier. I'd appreciate your thoughts and input.

 

Thanks

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Your right. I just hadn't gotten that far yet as I'm not comfortable with the level of testing I've got to do on the ideas I've come up with. I'm considering 5 points could buy improved turning and 5 points could buy improved acceleration or a Non combat multiplier (these are mutually exclusive) instead of 5 points for improved acceleration and turning, or 5 points for a non combat multiplier. I'd appreciate your thoughts and input.

 

Thanks

I'm not sure that buying improved turning would fully fix the situation.

 

If combat velocity is tied to turn mode, then anything which increases combat velocity will also increase turning ability.

 

Now, in some cases, that is exactly the result we'd want, but not in all cases.

 

If gadget guy builds me an electric motor for my bike, it could give me better acceleration, but I'm not sure that it would really help me with my 10mph turn radius. But, if I'm understanding what you are suggesting, then getting more combat velocity will help with the bike's turn modes as well.

 

I'm just thinking that the bike situation might be better represented with rules that did not tie turn mode to max combat velocity.

[captainNeda]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I'm not sure that buying improved turning would fully fix the situation.

 

If combat velocity is tied to turn mode, then anything which increases combat velocity will also increase turning ability.

 

Now, in some cases, that is exactly the result we'd want, but not in all cases.

 

If gadget guy builds me an electric motor for my bike, it could give me better acceleration, but I'm not sure that it would really help me with my 10mph turn radius. But, if I'm understanding what you are suggesting, then getting more combat velocity will help with the bike's turn modes as well.

 

I'm just thinking that the bike situation might be better represented with rules that did not tie turn mode to max combat velocity.

 

Oh by improved turning I mean doubling the number of turns the character can make at combat velocity.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The way CSLs apply to DCV,

The lack of a defensive maneuver that increases ECV

 

those are the two that i can think of off the top of my head, regen, missile deflect, and damage shield don't come up enough for me.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Oh by improved turning I mean doubling the number of turns the character can make at combat velocity.

 

I understood that point.

 

 

 

Maybe an example would help me make my point a bit better. . . .

 

Lets say that my character has a motorcycle with 10" combat movement. And if we go by your rules I'd assume that he could turn 60 degrees per segment while going 10", which is fine.

 

During one of our adventures, it becomes clear that my character's bike needs a bit more speed. So one of the other characters (Gadget Guy) comes up with a means to temporarly supercharge the bike's engine. Lets assume that this is an Aid to my character's bike's movement. And Lets assume that the movement goes up to 20" combat speed.

 

So my character's bike is now faster for a bit---and that is what we'd expect.

 

But we'd also find that when my character is driving at 10" (while still super charged) something else happens, he can now turn twice at 10" per segment.

 

IMO that is not something we'd expect from the supercharged engine. Turning on the bike shouldn't be affected by the engine's power.

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I'm just thinking that the bike situation might be better represented with rules that did not tie turn mode to max combat velocity.

 

Actually, Turn Mode is tied to current, not max velocity. And whether or not it's Combat or Noncombat movement.

 

IMO that is not something we'd expect from the supercharged engine. Turning on the bike shouldn't be affected by the engine's power.

 

Well, there might be a reason for improved turning. Perhaps, with the extra power, he's able to do some sort of "bootlegger reverse" move?

 

But generally, I think that due to real-world inertia being darned hard to ignore, Turn Modes should be primarily based upon one's current velocity and whether or not it's Combat Velocity.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Actually, Turn Mode is tied to current, not max velocity. And whether or not it's Combat or Noncombat movement.

Yes, but we are discussing captainNeda's alternate rules concept.

 

 

Well, there might be a reason for improved turning. Perhaps, with the extra power, he's able to do some sort of "bootlegger reverse" move?

 

But generally, I think that due to real-world inertia being darned hard to ignore, Turn Modes should be primarily based upon one's current velocity and whether or not it's Combat Velocity.

I believe that captainNeda's alternate rules make a great deal of sense in many cases.

 

If a telekinetic is flying by telekinetic power, then the ability to alter course is probably going to be based upon that power as well. A more powerful TK will have more points in flight, and more power to turn with as well.

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Isn't that what buying No Turn Mode, or just Skill Levels w/ Flight, are for?

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

The lack of a defensive maneuver that increases ECV

 

There are a bunch of Mental Maneuvers in The Ultimate Mentalist that do this, and more.

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Any Mental Martial Maneuvers?

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Isn't that what buying No Turn Mode' date=' or just Skill Levels w/ Flight, are for?[/quote']

IMO it's kind of a simulationist thing.

 

STR ties together lifting, jumping, HTH damage, plus a bunch of figured characteristics.

 

We could also fix it so that strong characters only get lifting ability. If they want to get the other things they'd have to buy them. For example, if a strong character wants to do extra damage, he'd have to buy HTH attack.

 

But all those things go together because it makes sense that they would go together. It is the same issue here with the flight stuff.

[Warp9]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Any Mental Martial Maneuvers?

Yes, for people who are "master ninjas" in their own minds.

[ghost-angel]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

Any Mental Martial Maneuvers?

 

No.

 

There are:

 

Combat Maneuvers (for everyone)

Martial Maneuvers (for martial artists)

Mental Maneuvers (for mentalists)

 

They are not "Mental Martial Maneuvers" they are "Mental Maneuvers"

 

Ultimate Mentalist p252

They are split into Basic Mental Maneuvers and Advanced Mental Maneuvers.

 

 

(I took the little "eye wink emoticon" as a "Didn't you mean..." and have less than 0 patience today for such antics. If you didn't mean it that way I will apologize and consider this thread an enlightenment/explanation for those who do not have The Ultimate Mentalist.)

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

No.

 

 

(I took the little "eye wink emoticon" as a "Didn't you mean..." and have less than 0 patience today for such antics. If you didn't mean it that way I will apologize and consider this thread an enlightenment/explanation for those who do not have The Ultimate Mentalist.)

 

You read the wink incorrectly. It was meant to indicate "I'm being silly/joking". But you didn't give an outburst, so IMO there's no need to apologize.

 

While I do have TUM, I have yet to actually read it. But even so, I was pretty certain that the answer to my (bogus) question would be no.

[SteveZilla]

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th?

 

I don't like that AFAIK there is no straightforward way to build a focus that has backup (i.e., redundant, not useable simultaneously) systems.

 

And there is AFAIK no straightforward way to make a focus that repairs itself given some time.

 

It's way too easy IMO to take out the OIF: Battlesuit with just a couple points of damage because of the rules that a framework is considered a single power for power destruction.