Changing the direction of knockback???

[Kenn]

Say an attack is some form of vaccuum beam. The attack is direct, does physical damage, but the knockback from it, logically, should be towards the attacker, not away from him.

 

How could that be built?

[Daemon]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

TK, affects whole object, only to draw objects toward the character

EB, no knockback, linked to TK

 

Some combination of AOE: Line and Indirect, where you target the hex behind them relative to the character, and the Indirect points toward the character.

 

Or, just indirect, really. Define the SFX as a Vacuum Beam and define Indirect as originating on the other side of the target, pointing toward the character. I also suggest Personal Immunity =P

[Tonio]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

I dunno, I'd probably just give it a -0 Limitation/Advantage. Sure, it's useful at times, but it'll also cause the target to smack into you if you fire too close, hehe.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Say an attack is some form of vaccuum beam. The attack is direct, does physical damage, but the knockback from it, logically, should be towards the attacker, not away from him.

 

How could that be built?

 

So you want a character that sucks instead of blows?

 

Defined Origin Point, Fires In Any Direction

 

... +1/2 Advantage ...

 

Examples of this include some types of boomerangs and arrows that a character can cause to arc around and hit target from various angles.

 

To be technically correct, one would take the +1/2 level of Indirect then apply a Limitation to the Advantage restricting it to only being towards the character.

 

To use a touch of Handwavium, I'd say its equivalent to the +1/4 level and call it a day.

 

Or make a custom Advantage, Reversed Knockback(+1/4) and use that.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Years ago, I did a conversion of the weapons from the movie MiB. One of them (the big megillah Tommy Lee Jones fires at the saucer in the climactic scene) has that specific effect (i.e., it creates a vacuum which draws the target towards the firer).

 

At that time, I just hand-waved the effect by saying the Knockback was reversed. Looking back, I would hazard the Indirect Advantage is a decent way to go, although I'm still thinking there're enough balancing pros/cons involved that it could be a +0 Advantage.

[Tonio]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

To be technically correct, one would take the +1/2 level of Indirect then apply a Limitation to the Advantage restricting it to only being towards the character.

 

To use a touch of Handwavium, I'd say its equivalent to the +1/4 level and call it a day.

 

Or make a custom Advantage, Reversed Knockback(+1/4) and use that.

 

Would need to add "doesn't actually hit from behind", which would prevent the power from hitting someone who's behind a narrow wall. I don't think Indirect really helps here... the directness of the attack is completely normal: fires from the attacker, goes straight out, away from the attacker, towards the target. When it hits the target, it knocks him forward instead of back. There are already rules for upwards and downwards knockback, and they don't cost the character anything. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to let an attack do forwards knockback by default.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

...

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to let an attack do forwards knockback by default.

 

Actually, against a target that has never seen this power and that is bracing against knockback this effect would negate the maneuver.

 

I'd say that's worth something.

[Tonio]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Actually, against a target that has never seen this power and that is bracing against knockback this effect would negate the maneuver.

 

I'd say that's worth something.

 

The reverse is also true for attacks that don't do KB (like STUN-only EBs, NNDs, Flashes with EB-like SFXs, etc.), in that they might make the target waste an action in bracing against KB. You could also rule that the SFX of the power makes it's reverse knockback property obvious, so characters would brace properly.

 

Many SFXs can also cause the target to react inappropriately on first contact, yet we don't charge for that.

[Kenn]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Would need to add "doesn't actually hit from behind"' date=' which would prevent the power from hitting someone who's behind a narrow wall. I don't think Indirect really helps here... the directness of the attack is completely normal: fires from the attacker, goes straight out, away from the attacker, towards the target. When it hits the target, it knocks him [i']forward[/i] instead of back. There are already rules for upwards and downwards knockback, and they don't cost the character anything. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to let an attack do forwards knockback by default.

 

You described exactly why I don't want to use indirect. The attack isn't indirect in any way. It's just that it should be doing knockfore instead of knockback.

 

I also find the linked TK problematic because it basically lets characters brace for knockback retroactively (especially the strong'uns whose casual STR exceeds the STR of TK.)

[Kenn]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Thinking about it, besides the risk to the person firing, it also occurs to me that the odds of the target taking any damage from the knickfore is pretty slim. There aren't often going to be vertical surfaces between the shooter and the target (since if there were, the target would be shielded), so that would keep the KF damage to a minimum.

 

As Knockback damage is one of the biggest benefits of knocking back an opponent, this is probably enough of a limitation to counter the advantages of knocking someone to be closer to you.

 

I think I like the +/-0 option.

 

Thanks.

[Qelan]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

I think you have a really cool power here. Would you list the whole character somewhere, I would love to see it.

I agree with a lot of the people here. Maybe you should buy it indirect but then limit the power and say LoS to target needed.

[Kenn]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

When I'm done I will. First I want to see if my computer (the one with H.D. on it) managed to dodge the sewage bullet.

[Outsider]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

So long as it acts just like a regular attack (doesnt avoid intervening barriers, doesn't get CV modifiers for coming from an odd direction etc) and just does the knockback forward or to the side, I'd call it a +0 special effect effect.

 

If it is to do its knockback up or down, though, that's more of an advantage. Knockback straight down would be the equivalent to always having a very solid wall right behind the target for non-flying opponents, and doing it up would always give the target falling damage, and could leave it aloft for several segments to boot.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Generally I call "Knock-Forward" a -1/4 Limitation. It's much less likely that you'd be able to knock the target into an obstacle, and if you do manage to do that chances are that said obstacle is yourself.

 

I wouldn't call it Indirect because the attack doesn't have any other characteristics of Indirect -- you still need to reach the target directly, it's still a visible line from you to him, and so forth. The only thing changing is that knockback is toward you or away.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

A Limitation!?

 

It's the "Come Here!" attack.

 

A Brick with this as an alternative ranged attack would border on abusive.

 

I think a character from Mortal Combat had this effect for a primary attack even. Very hard effect to defend against.

 

I can see the arguments for making it -0 or +1/4 but not -1/4.

 

HM

[SteveZilla]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

Maybe a +1/8 Advantage?

 

Or a flat-cost Adder?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

A Limitation!?

 

It's the "Come Here!" attack.

It's not just "Come Here!" It's "Come Here -- No, Not That Close! *CRASH*"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

In addition it would screw up a lot of people bracing against KB in the wrong direction.

 

There are a number of ways you could do this, but I'd do it by re-writing the indirect rules

 

Generally KB is straight away from you. If you are willing to take a penalty of -1 on your hit roll I allow you to aim your KB in a 45 degree cone away. If you are in HtH or right next to your opponent, you can take a -2 and aim it up to 90 degrees from straight away from you, including straight up or straight down.

 

For +1/4 I'd allow you to define a new direction for KB 'permanently' - including straight toward you. For +1/2 I'd allow you to define the direction of KB with each attack.

 

(And to comlpete the indirect rules, for +1/4 you could circumvent barriers (anything apart from personal defences) that do not englobe a character completely and for +1/2 you can circumvent any barrier short of personal defences, even if it does englobe the ctarget (or you). Where the atatck originates etc is not really relevant, and would come under IPE if the 'aim' is to make it difficult to identify an attacker.)

[casualplayer]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

This is exactly what Indirect is for, and the problem lies with Indirect being made to do too many things in HERO. Should be 3-4 seperate Advantages.

 

So we splinter off the aspect of Indirect that involves direction of Knockback into its own Advantage, KB Redirection, allowing you to change it from directly away from attacker to directly towards attacker. +1/4, mostly because of the potential surprise aspects and the fact that you will always have a backboard (yourself) to bounce the target off of for potential additional damage whereas normal KB sometimes just increases the distance between you and your target.

[mattingly]

Re: Changing the direction of knockback???

 

I generally treat it as a +1/4, costed the same as Does KB. One really useful attack is to toss in a vacuum grenade, which removes all the air from a room and pulls everyone in toward the center. From there, with a pile of prone opponents, your teammates let loose with their own AOEs and Explosions (now that everyone is neatly piled) or normal attacks.

 

If the original attack does enough KB, you even get velocity differential KB damage. Mr. 1 is 3 hexes from attack center, and takes 4" KB. Mr. 2 is 4 hexes away and takes 6" KB. Now they slam into each other for 10d6 KB damage.