Never gets tired

[Qelan]

I was just asked to create a character that never gets tired and can keep on running and hitting forever. Of course I thought of zero end cost on powers, str, and movement but I realize even with those bonuses the long term endurance rules would come into play. So instead of putting ton of points into recovery to offset that I was thinking about this…

 

17 Aid End 1d6, Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points); Always On (-1/2)

 

But somehow it just feels broken. Maybe we should just get a high recovery and zero end advantage everything.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Never gets tired

 

LTE is an optional rule. Simply clear it with your GM that they won't apply to your character. (Certain genres, such as supers, seldom if ever use LTE anyway).

 

As a GM, if a character paid for every power to be 0 END I'd have no problem with allowing that character to ignore LTE even if I planned to use it in the campaign.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Hmm...I don't have my book with me (actually I seem to have misplaced it...I haven't seen it in weeks if not months) but I don't recall any rules saying that LTE still affects 0 END powers.

 

Even if it did, does Aid affect LTE loss? I don't think I've ever had to rule on that before...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Never gets tired

 

If your movement is 0END then it can't, by definition, be affected by Long Term END.

[Outsider]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Never Gets Tired :

 

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Strength

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Running

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Swimming

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on all other END using powers.

Life Support : Does not Sleep

 

The LTE rules make a character lose LTE based on multiples of his REC spent in END per Turn. If he's spending no END, he won't have any LTE loss.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Never Gets Tired :

 

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Strength

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Running

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on Swimming

Reduced Endurance Cost : 0 END on all other END using powers.

Life Support : Does not Sleep

 

The LTE rules make a character lose LTE based on multiples of his REC spent in END per Turn. If he's spending no END, he won't have any LTE loss.

 

 

The only drawback to consider with this approach vs. just buying a much higher REC is that 0 END abilities cannot be pushed.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Never gets tired

 

The only drawback to consider with this approach vs. just buying a much higher REC is that 0 END abilities cannot be pushed.

 

It would be possible to buy added power that costs increased END and requires an EGO roll, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

The only drawback to consider with this approach vs. just buying a much higher REC is that 0 END abilities cannot be pushed.

 

...and can anyone venture an explanation as to why we need that rule?

 

I can sort of see it for powers that never cost END, say Armor, but it makes little sense for powers that have the cost reduced to 0 END.

[ideasmith]

Re: Never gets tired

 

...and can anyone venture an explanation as to why we need that rule?

 

I can sort of see it for powers that never cost END, say Armor, but it makes little sense for powers that have the cost reduced to 0 END.

 

If you want to push a something with no END cost, just buy 10 more Active Points worth. Since the only penalty for pushing is extra END cost, and 0 END abilities have no END cost, allowing such a power to push is the same as having 10 extra Active Points of said power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Never gets tired

 

...and can anyone venture an explanation as to why we need that rule?

 

I can sort of see it for powers that never cost END, say Armor, but it makes little sense for powers that have the cost reduced to 0 END.

 

The whole point of the pushing rules is to let the character take a chance of running out of END (and possibly STUN) to do something heroic in a dire situation. If most or all of his abilities are normally 0 END by default then neither one of those situations will ever arise.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

If you want to push a something with no END cost' date=' just buy 10 more Active Points worth. Since the only penalty for pushing is extra END cost, and 0 END abilities have no END cost, allowing such a power to push is the same as having 10 extra Active Points of said power.[/quote']

 

You can get around it like this:

 

11/11 force field (0 END on 10/10) 32 points. Because you have 1/1 FF that costs END you can push the whole thing. Seems like a pointless waste of time though - surely it is far cleaner to just allow you to push a 0 END FF - you are still spending loads of END, it is not as if you are getting something for nothing.

 

Alternatively, if it was important to have the definition available, you could buy 0 END on a power (or a power already at 0 END, like armor) and define it in one of two ways when the power is bought:

 

1. Trickle END - the power does use END, albeit at a rate so low it does not affect your END pool. The power can be pushed BUT requires you to have some END available to use (so you can't use it if your END is reduced to 0) OR

2. No END use - the power does not use END at all, and cannot be pushed, but is unaffected by the loss of your END - it continues to function even if your END is 0.

[ideasmith]

Re: Never gets tired

 

You can get around it like this:

 

11/11 force field (0 END on 10/10) 32 points. Because you have 1/1 FF that costs END you can push the whole thing. Seems like a pointless waste of time though - surely it is far cleaner to just allow you to push a 0 END FF - you are still spending loads of END, it is not as if you are getting something for nothing.

 

Alternatively, if it was important to have the definition available, you could buy 0 END on a power (or a power already at 0 END, like armor) and define it in one of two ways when the power is bought:

 

1. Trickle END - the power does use END, albeit at a rate so low it does not affect your END pool. The power can be pushed BUT requires you to have some END available to use (so you can't use it if your END is reduced to 0) OR

2. No END use - the power does not use END at all, and cannot be pushed, but is unaffected by the loss of your END - it continues to function even if your END is 0.

 

The 11/11 Force Field you describe could only be pushed by 1 PD/1 ED. Since only the part that has END cost is being pushed, only the part that has END cost counts. To get a full 10 points of pushing, the power must have at least 10 points with an END cost.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

The whole point of the pushing rules is to let the character take a chance of running out of END (and possibly STUN) to do something heroic in a dire situation. If most or all of his abilities are normally 0 END by default then neither one of those situations will ever arise.

 

I'm not sure it is the whole point, but I accept the thrust of your argument.

 

I think the push rules could probably do with a nice long hard look at. the rules seem too prescriptive and could easily be a lot freer without damaging the game, possibly even suggesting as optional rules things that are currently set in stone.

 

END is something that is a useful bit of detail in the game but often slows things down without adding much, and. frankly, it is amusing the first time everyone runs out of END and can't throw a punch, but it rapidly pales thereafter.

 

Pushing could easily be modified to require END used to come from STUN, or to simply make pushing more commonplace, upping the END use that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

The 11/11 Force Field you describe could only be pushed by 1 PD/1 ED. Since only the part that has END cost is being pushed' date=' only the part that has END cost counts. To get a full 10 points of pushing, the power must have at least 10 points with an END cost.[/quote']

 

You are right and I can understand why we have that rule, but I still struggle to understand why a power boughtt o 0 END can't be pushed.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Never gets tired

 

You are right and I can understand why we have that rule' date=' but I still struggle to understand why a power boughtt o 0 END can't be pushed.[/quote']Envision two sci-fi starship drives. One mixes matter & antimatter to generate energy (the more mixed, the greater the energy); the other uses a self-contained perpetual energy doohickey that neither burns nor accepts fuel. You could always risk mixing more matter and antimatter than the design specs and safety margins call for, in order to generate more power in an emergency. But the self-contained drive doesn't work that way... it puts out however much energy it puts out and that's it (probably some magic ratio between some feature of its design and the harmonic resonance signature of the universe or some such hoo-haw).

 

Likewise, a power that "burns fuel" (i.e., costs END) can be pushed by forcing more fuel through the system, but a power that's self-contained (i.e. doesn't cost END) doesn't have a mechanism for "burning" extra fuel; by definition, it doesn't use "fuel."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Envision two sci-fi starship drives. One mixes matter & antimatter to generate energy (the more mixed, the greater the energy); the other uses a self-contained perpetual energy doohickey that neither burns nor accepts fuel. You could always risk mixing more matter and antimatter than the design specs and safety margins call for, in order to generate more power in an emergency. But the self-contained drive doesn't work that way... it puts out however much energy it puts out and that's it (probably some magic ratio between some feature of its design and the harmonic resonance signature of the universe or some such hoo-haw).

 

Likewise, a power that "burns fuel" (i.e., costs END) can be pushed by forcing more fuel through the system, but a power that's self-contained (i.e. doesn't cost END) doesn't have a mechanism for "burning" extra fuel; by definition, it doesn't use "fuel."

 

Nice descriptions, but I can't get out of my mind a character who has muscles that contain an alien enzyme that instantly converts the products of metabolism back to glucose and oxygen. The muscles are still burning energy, but it is instantly replenished, and so (effectively) uses no END from the character, or at least instantly replaces it. However, if the muscles are overstressed, they burn energy at a rate higher than the alien enzymes can replenish it, so, although the characters muscles in normal use never fatigue him they can still be pushed. (Or, slightly less Sci Fi, look at plants: they respire, but also photosynthesise: normal processes involving respiratory metabolism have the END cost cancelled by the photosymthesis, but if the plant was 'pushing' it might have to dig into reserves it did not normally touch.)

 

More to the point, I can't see mechanically why the rule is needed. Apart from my own personal bugbear - advantages that create a disadvantage (and limitations that grant advantages) - I just can't see the 'rules-need' for this. What ill is prevented if you can not push your 0-END force field? I mean, you've paid enough to have it at 0 END, why should that disadvantage you.

 

Let us think for a minute what pushing is worth to a power:

 

10 active points at 10x END is 2 points. To make it universally available for all your powers you probably need to build it as a VPP (OK it wouldn't add to powers in frameworks, but we are just looking at costings.

 

So, 10 point pool, control cost 5, Cosmic (+2) 15 active, All powers at 10x END (-4) Only to add to existing powers (-1): 2 Real points, total 12 real points for the ability to push all your powers.

 

Or we could usse succor:

 

Succor 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), [four powers] simultaneously (+1) (42 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Succorred power costs 1 END per point to use; -2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only in certain circumstances; -1) 10 real points

 

Any way we look at it, this is not expensive to actually buy - I could probably make it even cheaper if I added in all the actual limtiations of pushing - and it works for any power, whether it costs END normally or not.

 

In fact, build it like this:

10 active points of a given power (10 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; -4), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only in certain situations; -1), Requires An EGO Roll (-1) 1 real point

 

...and you could get rid of pushing from the rules and replace it with a 1 point adder 'can be pushed'. Assume strength, running and swimming come with it as part of the basic character package.

 

That way, if you can justify a push for teh power, however else it might be built, you can do it.

[Comic]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Pushing's entirely under GM's control.

 

As such, I'd hate to make a power that is a 'Push', and pay points for it. It's more limiting than 'No Conscious Control', for one, and a metagame power for another. As a player I'd no more want it than I'd want "Detect/Analyze Character Sheet", and as a GM I'd certainly never allow it.

 

Pushing is a specific mechanic simulating a specific heroic meme. The Herculean effort of a dedicated champion in a crucial circumstance is an element of heroic genres. The mechanic of 'power that costs zero END' is a specific element of our game that translates into simulating an activity that is effortless. They are the opposite.

 

Sure, you can build a 'Zen push', where by effortlessness you achieve greater effect, but you're not Pushing, in game mechanical terms.

 

At least, that's the way I look at it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Envision two sci-fi starship drives. One mixes matter & antimatter to generate energy (the more mixed, the greater the energy); the other uses a self-contained perpetual energy doohickey that neither burns nor accepts fuel. You could always risk mixing more matter and antimatter than the design specs and safety margins call for, in order to generate more power in an emergency. But the self-contained drive doesn't work that way... it puts out however much energy it puts out and that's it (probably some magic ratio between some feature of its design and the harmonic resonance signature of the universe or some such hoo-haw).

 

Likewise, a power that "burns fuel" (i.e., costs END) can be pushed by forcing more fuel through the system, but a power that's self-contained (i.e. doesn't cost END) doesn't have a mechanism for "burning" extra fuel; by definition, it doesn't use "fuel."

 

Let me start by saying, in general I agree completely with this analogy.

 

On the flipside however..

 

If the Perpetual Energy Drive is using 0END to model the fact that it uses a spinning-cyclotronic-doodad and getting more energy is simply a matter of spinning it faster I see no reason it couldn't be pushed beyond normal operating maximums.

 

I think, like many things in Hero - whether or not a 0END Power can be Pushed should include a look at the SFX involved.

[ideasmith]

Re: Never gets tired

 

Let me start by saying, in general I agree completely with this analogy.

 

On the flipside however..

 

If the Perpetual Energy Drive is using 0END to model the fact that it uses a spinning-cyclotronic-doodad and getting more energy is simply a matter of spinning it faster I see no reason it couldn't be pushed beyond normal operating maximums.

 

I think, like many things in Hero - whether or not a 0END Power can be Pushed should include a look at the SFX involved.

 

There should be some penalty for spinning the cyclotronic-doodad faster. Without a penalty, pushing becomes normal usage. Since there is no END cost, presumably for good special effects reasons, it has to be something else. Possibly a Burnout Roll?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Never gets tired

 

I think sfx just determines whether 0 END is used or not.

 

"Never gets tired" could just mean that the character has never exerted energy beyond their REC in a Turn.

 

There would be some weird side effects of having such a high REC to cover the typical Champions 'Energy Projector' at full tilt (Attack, Defense & Movement). Assume the 'average' 50-60 active point abilities and a 4-5 SPD we are talking about a REC between 60-100 assuming not even 1/2 END is taken on any abilities.

 

Take 1/2 END on all the major abilities and that number can be halved (REC between 30-50).

 

The combat effect of such a REC is not insignificant since it is likely higher than some character's STUN.

 

I would suggest taking a Limitation "Only to recover END" on some portion of the REC. Determining the value of the Limitation then becomes the hard question. I would say it's worth somewhere between -1/2 and -1.

 

At -1 you could have a character with a normal 10 REC and a "END only REC of +40" for 40 points. I see nothing wrong with this approach being used as an alternative for a character who "normally never gets tired" but who can PUSH his powers and get tired as a result.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Never gets tired

 

There should be some penalty for spinning the cyclotronic-doodad faster. Without a penalty' date=' pushing becomes normal usage. Since there is no END cost, presumably for good special effects reasons, it has to be something else. Possibly a Burnout Roll?[/quote']

 

I'd say the usual Ego roll must be made and the Pushed component of the power costs END to push, but not END to use. An effortless energy blast could then be pushed, but it costs 10 END to add 2d6. A gun could not be pushed, and should have that limitation.

 

However, I'd be open to the idea of an alternative penalty for pushing. Perhaps a power that costs no END costs the character pushing STUN instead (1 STUN per 2 END otherwise used). View the END loss as a "drain" of END, and perhaps an equivalent loss would be a drain of the power itself (pushed beyond its limits, it can no longer operate at full capacity). The burnout roll idea is an interesting one as well, but a bit too "all or nothing" for my tastes. I'll push my gadget. if it burns out, I pull out a different gadget. Mind you, I can do the same if my gadget is Drained. END and STUN affect the character more directly.

[Comic]

Re: Never gets tired

 

If you really need your character with effortless attack powers to still be able to push their efforts.. why not give them an attack that costs END to use in addition to their main attack? Sure, if it's a small additional attack, the Multiattack rules will have to apply, but since one of the attacks is effortless, and the point is apparently to have the ability to Push heroically, not to get something for nothing because you have trouble following rules, it solves the problem quite directly and cleanly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Never gets tired

 

I'd say the usual Ego roll must be made and the Pushed component of the power costs END to push' date=' but not END to use. An effortless energy blast could then be pushed, but it costs 10 END to add 2d6. [b']A gun could not be pushed, and should have that limitation[/b].

 

However, I'd be open to the idea of an alternative penalty for pushing. Perhaps a power that costs no END costs the character pushing STUN instead (1 STUN per 2 END otherwise used). View the END loss as a "drain" of END, and perhaps an equivalent loss would be a drain of the power itself (pushed beyond its limits, it can no longer operate at full capacity). The burnout roll idea is an interesting one as well, but a bit too "all or nothing" for my tastes. I'll push my gadget. if it burns out, I pull out a different gadget. Mind you, I can do the same if my gadget is Drained. END and STUN affect the character more directly.

 

I think this is a sensible approach, but I hesitate to allow a limitation (other than -0) for 'can't be pushed' because if you cost out a push it is really very cheap, and you would almost certainly be making a killing in point savings even if it were a paltry -1/4.

 

Given that Hero is now a toolkit and not just a superhero game, the whole idea of pushing is perhaps questionable - there are any number of genre tropes that we could model if we wanted, with special rules.

 

Despite saying that, I quite like the idea of being able to push/overload/boost a power, but if I were building it from scratch I would be inclined to rule that an overloaded power cannot be used in teh next phase, or that it loses 10 active points from the power for a turn after being used. That way all powers would be equal, and it would not be an unwarranted bonus for END using powers.