D&D 4th

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

If you have so little interest in 4E' date=' why do you keep posting about it?[/quote']

 

General Gamer conversation? After all, D&D used to be the flagship game for RPG's, and it still is a major player in the gaming industry. The decay of such a storied system is a subject of consideration to those interested in roleplaying gaming in general. The focus of the market selection of the game, and how that has influenced the rules and the very premise of the playing experience is worth discussion.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

General Gamer conversation? After all' date=' D&D used to be the flagship game for RPG's, and it still is a major player in the gaming industry. The decay of such a storied system is a subject of consideration to those interested in roleplaying gaming in general. The focus of the market selection of the game, and how that has influenced the rules and the very premise of the playing experience is worth discussion.[/quote']

 

Ok, then say something about that, rather than "4E IS TEH SUXXOR!!!".

[Susano]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Ok' date=' then say something about that, rather than "4E IS TEH SUXXOR!!!".[/quote']

 

Okay...

 

H3R0 IS TEH HAXXOR!

 

[Diamond_J]

Re: D&D 4th

 

General Gamer conversation? After all' date=' D&D used to be the flagship game for RPG's, and it still is a major player in the gaming industry. The decay of such a storied system is a subject of consideration to those interested in roleplaying gaming in general. The focus of the market selection of the game, and how that has influenced the rules and the very premise of the playing experience is worth discussion.[/quote']

 

I would humbley suggest you stop using here-say and try the system at least once for yourself.

 

It doesn't hold much weight for your counter disscussion when you have no experience with the system what so ever. If then and only then you don't like 4th ED, I'll concied the argument to your behalf. After all it's very different form 3rd and I'm sure it wont be everybodies cup of tea.

 

However, the good news is there are hundreds of supliments for 3rd which you can now buy on the cheap, so many you would and could never use them all. Honestly what was left to release for the 3rd edition?

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I'll actually be playing in the World Wide Game Day on Saturday (got me an RPGA number and everything). I'm doing so to prove that I will, indeed, be playing Dungeonsiege on the tabletop rather than a PnP RPG.

 

I actually hope I enjoy it, because I need a less financially challenging strategy game than Warhammer Fantasy that also includes army list advancement capabilities through experience.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Have fun, but I have a feeling that you'll just come out validating your preconceived notions. Demo games like that don't tend to emphasize the same things that you could easily draw out in your home game.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

It doesn't hold much weight for your counter disscussion when you have no experience with the system what so ever. If then and only then you don't like 4th ED, I'll concied the argument to your behalf.

 

Why would you concede the argument then? I'd only be reflecting my experiences and opinion, which still would vary greatly from yours. No need to concede anythign on your behalf, and I'm not looking for a concession anyway. If you play the game, I hope you have a blast doing it, and don't mind me if I prefer other systems.

 

I mean, I already dislike hit points, armor class, feats, classes, and levels. I don't think 4e's going to do much about that.

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Have fun' date=' but I have a feeling that you'll just come out validating your preconceived notions. Demo games like that don't tend to emphasize the same things that you could easily draw out in your home game.[/quote']

Well, actually, that's exactly what I want from it.

 

I already have an RPG that let's me design characters exactly the way I want them and customize the game world to my vision, I certainly wouldn't want to replace it with a game system that is inherently restrictive.

 

But I do need a new strategy game, and everything I've been hearing, reading and observing is telling me that I have finally found a strategy game that fits the criteria in my 'Strategy Game Wishlist' almost perfectly.

 

Saturday will either prove or disprove this, I'm rooting for proving.

[xenobrain]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I give it a hard time' date=' but I am seriously interested in it as a replacement for Warhammer Fantasy.[/quote']

 

I can't figure where you're coming from. If you're talking about the wargame, D&D 4e could work I suppose, but if it's the Roleplaying game, I just can't see it. WFRP and D&D are on opposite ends of the Roleplaying spectrum.

 

Edit:: you pretty much posted the answer while I was asking the question

 

And as for D&D's viability as a strategy game, our group pretty much played it as one. Five players controlled three characters each, and they proceeded to mow down countless hordes of monsters and take their stuff. I was coerced into running the game, and from my perspective and feedback from the players, it was smooth, fast and fun.

 

Bookkeeping is hell when you're tracking initiative and hitpoints for 40-50 characters on the battlemat, and mass combat rules may have been helpful, but the the fact is the game just runs DAMN fast! And such massive scale battles are quite doable, and run fast enough that the players didn't get bored. There was only a shred of Roleplaying here and there, but with 15 players characters it just wasn't feasible to have very much.

 

Some things we did to run things as quickly as possible:

1. Prerolled monster initiative. Done before game and during breaks. Monsters numbers assigned by initiative (ie monster 1 goes first, monster 2 goes second), players have the order they go in (ie the rogue has 15 on his character sheet, the fighter 8) on the top of their character sheets.

 

2. Players must be ready to go. Rule lookups must be done before their turn comes around, they have 15 seconds to complete their turn or it's forfeit. I made photocopies of the quickstart rules for everyone so it was really, really quick.

 

And interestingly, that was our first 4e game ever. I had a "what's new and different in 4e" lecture before game, but the changes were simple enough that there were very, very few rule lookups during game by anyone.

 

Overall, yea, 4e is a good wargame if you intend to couple it with some dungeon crawling and *gasp* some actual roleplaying. Yes, the nature of the character effectively means you can't create exactly what you want, and their personality isn't represented on the sheet either, but hey, you can always talk. And 4e actually has a decent conversational skill check system in place now (One guy in our group got his books early).

 

HERO and GURPS are my choices for smaller, roleplaying focused games. But D&D does what it sets out to do, and very well at that.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Well, actually, that's exactly what I want from it.

 

I already have an RPG that let's me design characters exactly the way I want them and customize the game world to my vision, I certainly wouldn't want to replace it with a game system that is inherently restrictive.

 

But I do need a new strategy game, and everything I've been hearing, reading and observing is telling me that I have finally found a strategy game that fits the criteria in my 'Strategy Game Wishlist' almost perfectly.

 

Saturday will either prove or disprove this, I'm rooting for proving.

 

 

I suggest checking into confrontation..though maybe the D&D miniatures combat game is what you are looking for. *

 

*That's actually a different game from 4E, just for clarification

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I suggest checking into confrontation..though maybe the D&D miniatures combat game is what you are looking for. *

I gots the 3.5 version of D&D miniatures and loved the potential for this game. I'm thrilled that they've made a rules expansion for it...erm...yeah, I mean, um, they made 4th edition D&D.

*That's actually a different game from 4E, just for clarification

Liar. 4e is just a fancy way of saying 'Rules Expansion for D&D Miniatures.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D 4th

 

If you don't like fighting stuff, don't play RPGs where fighting stuff happens

 

That's a false dichotomy, at no point did he imply that he didn't like combat, he simply pointed out that the game was being reduced to combat, with all special abilities combat-oriented.

 

I wouldn't suggest you try it out with one sword, eitehr.

 

I was being serious. If you somehow are of the opinion that being hit several times with a lethal instrument is no more likely to kill you than being hit once, I would strongly advise you avoid combat at all costs.

 

If you have so little interest in 4E, why do you keep posting about it?

 

Defensive, much? We get it, you love D&D.

 

Have fun, but I have a feeling that you'll just come out validating your preconceived notions.

 

That can work two ways...

 

Here's the thing: Making 4th edition a board simulation of MMOG's won't necessarily make it any less fun, it might even attract new players. I just think it is a really weird, retrogressive way to approach the matter, and they're obviously dumbing it down as much as possible.

 

Using colors to designate what powers do what is like handing players a big fat red pencil so they can't choke themselves on it or break it and end up with a jagged end. Role Playin Gamers are not, even as a minority, of average or below average intelligence.

[Old Man]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Myself, I refused to run 3rd or any incarnation of long ago because the system was a huge cluster "F". Trust me 4th is better hands down no arguement holds up againsts this, no comparison.

 

It's not hard to believe that 4th is superior to previous editions.

 

It's up to the GM to make the game more then just tabletop minitures. If you have a good GM there realy should be no problem running a fun game, and it will allso be balanced for a change.

 

Of course it helps if the GM isn't saddled with a system that encourages bizarre behavior by the characters.

[Karmakaze]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Well' date=' in HERO, we don't confuse inspiring speeches with healing magic.....[/quote']

 

PRE Attacks...

 

(Presence linked to Healing...? )

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D 4th

 

PRE Attacks...

 

(Presence linked to Healing...? )

 

Another strength of the HERO system..we could do it..if we really wanted to, but its not hardwired in

[mytrustyd20]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I played 4e a week or so ago...in that module that just came out "Darkwood Tower" or "Elderdark Scar" or "Midnight Legion" or whatever the heck they named it.

 

I've been playing D&D in all its forms for a couple of decades now and, though I've been moving towards Hero, I still have a warm fuzzy for D&D.

 

My experience with 4e confirms that it will make a nice, casual board game. It did not, in any way, feel like D&D. Here are several remarks overheard by the players:

 

"This wizard is just an archer. It's the most boring magic slinger I've ever had"

"Why did they keep the same names for things and change the definitions? This spell..."Magic Missile"...is nothing like magic missile".

"4E is fun but it's not any faster to play than 3.5"

"It seems like all we do now is deal damage and we're all doing about the same amount".

 

 

Make no mistake-we had a lot of fun. Our GM had a great time as well. However, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was playing Heroscape or some kind of simple miniatures "skirmish" game.

 

Even the two "4e cheerleaders" in our game seemed a little let down by actual play.

 

Playing 4E is the straw that broke the camel's back-I'm moving my guys to (Fantasy) Hero full time.

[BlackSword]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Let me clarify. I said that if the payer makes an inspiring speech, the GmMshould award hit points under this logic. However, using that explanation, that effect should happen regardless of if he's taken any mechnical ability by the rules to permit this.

 

Or is the ability to make inspring speeches based on class now? Talk about 'roll' playing.

No more so than in Hero where you have a PRE score. Do characters with a PRE of 5 strike fear into opponents when they make a very intimidating speech? Its trading one mechanic for another, in Hero characters buy PRE (or not) depending on how much their personality can effect those around them. In 4th a particular class (or cross-class with the multiclass feat) can affect those around him. I could recite MLK's "I have a dream" word for word but I doubt I would move as many people as he did. In Hero he has higher PRE score than me, in D&D he is a different class than me.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

In Hero he has higher PRE score than me' date=' in D&D he is a different class than me.[/quote']

 

Now I have an image of MLK as a Cleric/Warlord.

[BlackSword]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Now I have an image of MLK as a Cleric/Warlord.

He was a minister.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: D&D 4th

 

He was a minister.

 

Hence the cleric.

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D 4th

 

He was a minister.

 

I'm not familiar with that prestige class: what's the progression like?

 

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I played 4e a week or so ago...in that module that just came out "Darkwood Tower" or "Elderdark Scar" or "Midnight Legion" or whatever the heck they named it.

 

I've been playing D&D in all its forms for a couple of decades now and, though I've been moving towards Hero, I still have a warm fuzzy for D&D.

 

My experience with 4e confirms that it will make a nice, casual board game. It did not, in any way, feel like D&D. Here are several remarks overheard by the players:

 

"This wizard is just an archer. It's the most boring magic slinger I've ever had"

"Why did they keep the same names for things and change the definitions? This spell..."Magic Missile"...is nothing like magic missile".

"4E is fun but it's not any faster to play than 3.5"

"It seems like all we do now is deal damage and we're all doing about the same amount".

 

 

Make no mistake-we had a lot of fun. Our GM had a great time as well. However, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was playing Heroscape or some kind of simple miniatures "skirmish" game.

 

Even the two "4e cheerleaders" in our game seemed a little let down by actual play.

 

Playing 4E is the straw that broke the camel's back-I'm moving my guys to (Fantasy) Hero full time.

THis makes me VERY VERY happy.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D 4th

 

I don't know but I suspect that 4th Edition is probably suffering from the "must balance all classes" syndrome of MMOGs. The reason it is important in a MMOG is that there's virtually no role playing content or way to balance out things by GM fiat or control of the scenario. In a role playing game you have all that, and even the weak character class can shine based on how the GM runs things.

[bitter thorn]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Oddly enough, although I was a keen player of OD&D and AD&D1 'back in the day' (I only played 2nd edn about 3 times as I was out of RPGing during most of that edition's 'lifespan'), I bought the core rulebooks for 3.5 mainly out of curiosity and also as a reference for when I am trying to get D&D types to play HERO - it give me a frame of reference to work with so I know 'where they are coming from', as it were.

 

I will probably get 4e for a similar reason (the game itself does not look like it will appeal to me at all - unless I know a really good GM that is running a game of it), and also because I work in publishing (typesetting and layout) and can count the rulebooks as a business expense ().

 

I suppose the good news is that when I roll out a Forgotten Realms HERO campaign (hopefully next academic year) using mainly 2nd and 3rd ed. materials (apart from a converted Kara-Tur set) and play fast and loose with the 'canon',people will be less likely to be anally retentive about it after seeing what WOTC are doing with that setting .

 

I will probably still check out Pathfinder though - just out of curiosity.

 

The slaughter of the Forgotten Realms probably turned me off even more than the dumbed down rule mechanics of 4E. All I can do is vote with my dollars. WotC has lost my rather significant business. I see no reason to tolerate a mediocre system if they are going to destroy my favorite setting.

[Nolgroth]

Re: D&D 4th

 

Slaughter of the Forgotten Realms? Some big event I missed, or just the gradual effect of entropy on the setting?