Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

[TheQuestionMan]

Greetings HEROphiles, I need your insight. Recently our GM commented how difficult it is to run the current campaign because some of the PC's are so powerful they short circuit many adventures. A few of the Characters have become so involved with the Campaign's Background that it leaves other PC's with nothing to do.

 

So the question remains "Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?"

 

QM

[Chris-M]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Sounds like there are two issues going on in that campaign: One is the issue of raw power and the other is Killer Shrike's concept of Relevance -- check out this post and Shrike's article that he links to in it.

 

By "too powerful" I'm guessing the GM means that their powers are built better or they have more active points in them. The first case can be solved by the GM and the players who aren't as effective rebuilding some of their powers to be more effective (and this can be handwaved by some sort of cosmic event where the Beyonder or Fargoner or whatever transforms a few of the characters or what have you). The second case can be fixed by using the previous method and then the GM applying a house rule that limits the upper reach of any one power in terms of active points. In other words, figure out how many active points each character has in his biggest power and rule that the highest active points in a power cannot be more than 30% greater than the active points in the least expensive of that group of powers -- so if Character A wants to dump more points into his Mega Blast, he'll have to browbeat Cornwheat Boy into dumping more points into his most powerful power first, if that makes sense.

 

The other issue is Shrike's Relevance, where a character has one or more powers that, given the setting/circumstances/GM's style, get used more often than other characters. The GM should either make an effort to give opportunities for other characters' major powers/shticks to be just as important, or he needs to allow some major rebuilding of these other characters' powers if necessary to make them fit the campaign better.

 

Along the same lines, the GM should make an effort to make all the characters important to the setting of the campaign. Now, if he gives all characters an opportunity and they don't take advantage of it, I don't think there's anything more he can do except maybe make some out-of-session suggestions to those players for ways they might get their characters more involved in the background story of the setting.

 

Hopefully this addresses at least some of what you're talking about.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

So the question remains "Can Characters get too powerful for some Genres/Settings?"

Of course they can. A cosmic-level character would be totally too powerful for a street-level game. Even a character in a standard 350 point starting point campaign might become too powerful if he applies 100+ XP primarily towards improving combat capabilities.

 

We try to avoid this kind of problem in our Champions campaign by having characters go mostly for broader abilities rather than raw upgrades to power levels. Buy an AP Energy Blast instead of more Damage Classes; add a new Martial Maneuver to increase combat flexibility instead of another DC, etc.

[csyphrett]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Trebuchet and Chris both seem right. Of course a character can become too powerful but in this case I think the matter of relevance applies. If some characters are standing around, are they standing around because they have no means to investigate or because they can't think of something to do?

 

It sounds like two problems going on. If the characters' powers allow them to get clues better, the gm should use it to his advantage. If some characters are standing around, maybe turning the focus on them will help them move out.

 

CES

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Two of the Player Characters in particular have become so Skilled or Powerful that they cut through much of the adventure planned by the GMs because they have the power to do so.

 

One is a true Renaissance Elf and Master Wizard. A player of the Great Game.

 

The other is a Powerful and Resourceful Elf Wizard with few scruples. He is the dark to the other character's light.

 

The other Player Character do not have as big an impact as these two. Mostly by choice. They inevitably become the Team Leaders. When one is in play the other sits back and watches.

 

Keep in mind that each of these characters has earned 3 character points per session more or less for the last six or seven years. Both still have unfinished plans and goals. They do not want to retire because they have so much to achieve.

 

 

Thank you very much for your insights.

 

 

QM

[csyphrett]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

The Gm will have to ask the weaker members of the party what they want to do. He can't just make them stand up on their own. It's like the old saying about horses and water.

CES

[Markdoc]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Keep in mind that each of these characters has earned 3 character points per session more or less for the last six or seven years. Both still have unfinished plans and goals. They do not want to retire because they have so much to achieve.

 

This sounds like the PCs have grown beyond the limits of the original game setting. It happens. When you reach that point you have two choices.

 

1) retire the characters

2) retire or retool the game setting

 

You can retool the setting without scrapping it. If you have powerful PCs who have clear goals, then the game should (IMO) naturally swing towards those goals, rather than the PCs reacting to what the world throws at them. Retire challenges that no longer challenge. Replace them with challenges that *do* challenge. That is going to be problem if some players want to quietly replace the Duke of Aarble with a doppelganger and take his place of influence at court and the others want to go down into the sewers and bash goblins, but it should be possible to accommodate both bashers and plotters.

 

cheers, Mark

[bubba smith]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Two of the Player Characters in particular have become so Skilled or Powerful that they cut through much of the adventure planned by the GMs because they have the power to do so.

 

One is a true Renaissance Elf and Master Wizard. A player of the Great Game.

 

The other is a Powerful and Resourceful Elf Wizard with few scruples. He is the dark to the other character's light.

 

The other Player Character do not have as big an impact as these two. Mostly by choice. They inevitably become the Team Leaders. When one is in play the other sits back and watches.

 

Keep in mind that each of these characters has earned 3 character points per session more or less for the last six or seven years. Both still have unfinished plans and goals. They do not want to retire because they have so much to achieve.

 

 

Thank you very much for your insights.

 

 

QM

here's another one

have the lesser powered characters notice their dilemma and try to take steps to improve themselves and prove their worth to the team for example in the silver age bouncing boy coped with the other members of the legion of super-heroes having more useful powers by appointing himself the groups "chief of morale"

[Trebuchet]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Keep in mind that each of these characters has earned 3 character points per session more or less for the last six or seven years.

That may be part of your problem right there. We give out 2 XP for short/mostly combat scenarios; 3 XP for long/involve a lot of non-combat ones. That XP is given at the end of the adventure; not at the end of each gaming session. Keep in mind that 3 XP is proportionately much more to a 150 point heroic character than it is to a 350 point superheroic one.

 

Given what you've told us about these two characters, I think it's time to invite them to retire and become DNPCs. See if their players would be willing to start new characters.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Yes and no.

 

Characters grow, if the campaign doesn't grow too, the PC's will outgrow it. You can call that being "too powerful" if you like, but I prefer to think of it as simply a case of the campaign not keeping up with the PC's rather than the other way around.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

The Characters is question have advance beyond the Game Mechanics and Campaign Settings ability to compensate. (GURPS BTW)

 

IMOHO

 

QM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

The GM can literally do ANYTHING within the context of the game. Their power is effectively infinite. PC's, no matter how powerful, are finite. Thus, with sufficient skill and ability to conceive of a solution, a good GM can always compensate. The only truly unsolvable problems is when there are problems between players or players and the GM _out of character_ since in the real world the GM has no power beyond social convention.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Yes and no.

 

Characters grow, if the campaign doesn't grow too, the PC's will outgrow it. You can call that being "too powerful" if you like, but I prefer to think of it as simply a case of the campaign not keeping up with the PC's rather than the other way around.

 

This is pretty much my thoughts.

 

Characters become to Powerful for a Game - but not necessarily the Campaign.

 

If the Campaign fails to scale up with them, they will indeed become "too powerful" - at which point you have two choices, retire them or bring the campaign to their level.

 

One Campaign I was in lasted over a decade, though I joined some six years in and my wife three more after that.

 

The Characters started as 150pt characters - by the end we were all over 900 points. But we kept moving the campaign up with them, and some of that didn't mean just bringing in bigger enemies. It meant rethinking the scale of the campaign itself completely.

 

We recently rebooted that game, and started over with 150pt Characters again - and the impact of the grand schemes of the previous characters is felt in the game world, but the scale of the Campaign at the moment is very small.

 

It's a trick to pull off, and you have to think Really Big to do it right.

 

That said, some games/campaigns may have a cap on Power where you do reach the top with nowhere to grow. At which point it may be more fun to stop and start over (depending on the players dispositions). Like any work of art - greatness is defined by knowing when to stop, not how much to keep adding on.

[Shigeru]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Just echoing G-A here...

 

A lot of problems stem from GMs not keeping track of their Campaign Guidelines like MAX DC, CV, Skill rolls and so on. If one PC is spending all hix XP on DEX and Combat Levels (and the GM OKs it) and everybody else is purchasing relevant new skills, buying off disadvantages or such like...then there's going to be a balance issue.

 

At some point, players WANT their characters to move on to the next level. And its up to the GM to make sure the bar is visibly raised so that no players end up being unable to compete because they aren't building their characters up in their weaker traits. Its far too easy to say "OK, spend those points wherever you want" and all of a sudden, ten sessions later one PC is very dominant.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Actually is well within the Campaign Guidelines. Its more a matter of ability. Of the 300+ Spells that exist in the Grimoire he has over 280 of them and Mastered 20 of those.

 

He is a social manipulator par excellence, a merchant so subtle few realize they are being taken, and he has maintained contacts in every major city and capital in the Empire and a few of the surrounding kingdoms.

 

Like the Bards of old his ability is legendary and his ability to spread propaganda, misinformation, and satires boggles some of the more experienced players in the great game.

 

However events have conspired to stop him from ever achieving his dreams and yet advanced others far ahead of what he expected.

 

There is so much to do and the outside world waits for no elf.

 

LOL

 

QM

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Just echoing G-A here...

 

A lot of problems stem from GMs not keeping track of their Campaign Guidelines like MAX DC, CV, Skill rolls and so on. If one PC is spending all hix XP on DEX and Combat Levels (and the GM OKs it) and everybody else is purchasing relevant new skills, buying off disadvantages or such like...then there's going to be a balance issue.

 

At some point, players WANT their characters to move on to the next level. And its up to the GM to make sure the bar is visibly raised so that no players end up being unable to compete because they aren't building their characters up in their weaker traits. Its far too easy to say "OK, spend those points wherever you want" and all of a sudden, ten sessions later one PC is very dominant.

 

Even without exceeding campaign limits there is a certain Power Level achieved with a massive array of options. Scaling needs to occur in that arena too.

 

And of course, it should be an option to scale some things BACK if they prove too distruptive. Our high powered game had a 9D6 Killing Attack at one point - couple with the Characters ability to add Full IPE to anything - and we realized it quickly needed to be moved back down.

[casualplayer]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Sounds like you have a combination of player ennui and a GM meltdown. Either the GM doesn't want to or can't run the type of campaign that will challenge that type of character. It sounds like he's throwing paragon level threats against epic level characters.

 

Is the GM able to do "cunning?" Can he create and run a cabal of counterparts that would constantly be a thorn in the players' side? Wizards are always jockeying for power and position; where is the next most powerful wizard in this world and why is he not trying to self-promote? Where is the king that can order these characters to undertake a quest that will lead to certain death? A 100 pt King can issue orders to a 900 pt Mage. A spell equipped, intelligently ran dragon should be a threat to even this high of a mound of xps.

[McManus]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

You mention the Empire. What are the PC's roles in imperial politics? What is the relation of the Empire with other nations? Might there be a Ravening Horde of Barbarians threatening the Empire and all that the PCs have built?

 

Great armies and powerful rulers can threaten and challenge even the most experienced PCs. And if they cannot, then there are always the Gods, both light and dark, to chastise them for their hubris, or for the PCs to challenge for the very throne of heaven.

[The Main Man]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Of course they can. A cosmic-level character would be totally too powerful for a street-level game. Even a character in a standard 350 point starting point campaign might become too powerful if he applies 100+ XP primarily towards improving combat capabilities.

 

We try to avoid this kind of problem in our Champions campaign by having characters go mostly for broader abilities rather than raw upgrades to power levels. Buy an AP Energy Blast instead of more Damage Classes; add a new Martial Maneuver to increase combat flexibility instead of another DC, etc.

 

That's what I've been leaning toward lately.

 

It not only avoids the character from becoming imbalance, but it also makes them more interesting in their capabilities.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Civil War threatens the Empire, but he PCs have been instrumental in bringing about the downfall of two of the three Rebel Dukes. It is now The Eastern part of the Empire vs. the Western part of the Empire.

 

My PC is hoping for a Diplomatic solution.

 

QM

[McManus]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Sounds like a great time for the nations of the periphery to attack a divided empire, at war with itself. And a smart Emperor might send his most powerful and resourceful elf/wizards and their companions to convince the nations not to interfere.

 

Sounds like a challenge to me.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Unfortunately, history in the Empire shows a tenancy for such actions to unify the Empire and suddenly the invaders would be facing the full might of the Empire already girded for war.

 

Only a few of the PCs have a vested interest in the Empire and usually to individuals rather than factions. Save one.

 

Besides the GM has been GMing it for a couple of years now and is sick to death of it. It was intended to be background. He did not expect the PCs to get so involved.

 

 

LOL

 

 

QM

[casualplayer]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

Besides the GM has been GMing it for a couple of years now and is sick to death of it. It was intended to be background. He did not expect the PCs to get so involved.

 

QM

 

And there is the insurmountable problem. The GM is trying to cause the game to implode to move on to something he might find more enjoyable.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

And there is the insurmountable problem. The GM is trying to cause the game to implode to move on to something he might find more enjoyable.

 

No, the Campaign has been running for 20yrs and we take breaks from GMing when another GM gets tired. What I meant to say is he is sick of the politics where surprisingly I am greatly enjoying it.

 

<<>>

 

 

QM

[Shaft]

Re: Can Characters get to powerful for some Genres/Settings?

 

I think one of the things that GMs have to realise as their campaigns grow is that the genre changes as the power levels change. In your case, where you have 900 pt characters, the GM and players must realise that the game is effectively a Supers game in the trappings of the Fantasy genre. Therefore, the game should be run like a Supers game in a Fantasy setting: ie the biggest threat to the Kingdom isn't a 300 pt Orc Barbarian Chieftan and his horde of 150 warriors- it's a 2516 pt Doctor, er... Lord Destroyer, using and enchanted suit of armour and an arseload of spells instead of power armour and made science. Gigaton becomes a 678 point wizard with a focus on eldritch blasts instead of nuclear energy. Rakshasha is a shapechaging rogue that uses magic to enhance his infiltration skills. Eurostar and the Ultimates become teams of mercendary adventurers that have magic gear on par with the PCs and so on.

 

this isn't just a HERO system guideline either. 20th elevel D&D parties live in a different reality than their 5th and 10th level counterparts.

 

Similarly, the genre also scales as the power levels do. Batman joining the Justice League is what happens when a genre goes from Dark Champions/Street Level Supers to full blown Supers. A 400-600 pt James Bond operates in a different espionage game than the original Mission Impossible crew (~150 pts each?) did back in the 60s. I would say that Bond, going up against the likes of Oddjob, Jaws, Teehee and other high level henchman was more on par with street level supers (though it's a street in a nice neighborhood where everyone owns a tux, and supers game with powers that are limited to Superskills).