Modern Swordsmithing

[Shike019]

Ok, I've got a Martial artist character and I'm thinking of buying a sword for the character.

 

Now, I'm wondering, If swordsmithing continued to develope along with modern science, etc, and using moder knowledge of metallurgy and materials such as ballistic Ceramic (Boron Carbide, 5th hardest known substance), etc.

 

How do you think swords would be made (not energy weapons) using combinations of materials or one material, or different types of the same material.

 

I would prefer nonfictional materials (so no adamantine or mithril ) and at least some sort of scientific (even very basic) reasoning.

 

Any help would be great.

 

I was thinking of a Boron Carbide edge with a Titanium alloy core or some such, but the firing temp of the Boron Carbide ceramics is about 300 degrees celcius hotter than the melting point of most titanium alloys.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks for the help.

[Beast]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

yes there are those that still do weaponsmithing with modern metals and mix with the old ways

 

and they cost a pretty penny too

 

not sure if they are going with the metals you named but you pay somebody enough and get them the equipment they can make it

 

hope Bruce Wayne is a friend

[CTaylor]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Yeah it's going to cost you a fortune, lucky its for a character and not you! The main thing you want in a sword though isn't hardness (shatters easily) you want durability and something that holds an edge. Flexibility is usually good too, if it doesn't flex at least a little, it's easier to break. If you plan on doing a lot of moving around, you'll want a really flexible sword; if you plan on standing your ground and meeting your foe, you'll want a pretty sturdy one to stop their attacks. The materials this weapon would be made out of will vary accordingly.

[Beast]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

the best sworrd making styles I've seen(I have friends who do live steel at ren faires and I do a little my self)are the Damascus and Japanese styles that are layered or laminated(heat welding)

[Vulcan]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Your idea about the Boron Carbide edge with a Titanium alloy core sounds good. You could even say that it is cast with a monomolecular edge, for extreme cutting power...

 

This is Champions. A certain amount of handwaving is not only expected, it's pretty much required. (Sure, a 250 pound guy can carry 100 times his own weight at arms length and not fall over...) Take a plausable premise and don't worry too much about how accurate it would be. Make it a special titanium alloy that melts 400 degrees higher than most. Or just ignore that little flaw entirely, most people won't know the difference.

[pinecone]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Yeah..."It's made of an organic crystal, I grow it to order, and it's stronger than any alloy known to man"...

[Shike019]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Fortunately money isn't exactly a problem. My character will acutally be doing the forging (though he should probably buy up his weaponsmithing skill a little.)

 

I just wanted to figure out the "science" of the types of materials and my GM likes to keep things as "real" as possible, that's why I was looking at Real world stuff. Of course, he hasn't had the opportunity to use any fictional metals (such as adamantine and Mithril). I like the boron carbide edge, since it is almost as hard as a diamond, which means it won't need to be sharpened as often (hopefully) and the titanium core, which is light. A Titanium silicon alloy is described as being more ductile which would with keeping the sword in one piece. Does this sound plausible?

[Shike019]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

After doing a little more research, I found that Boron Nitride is slightly harder than Boron Carbide (just below diamond) in hardness and the cubic structure is created a lower temperatures in effect making the titanium alloy "core" more plausible. I think that I will go with this idea instead of the boron carbide.

 

I think it will be fun having a weapon that has essentially a Diamond edge with a light but durable core making the whole light, sharp, and fast.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Oh, the character has the "Wealth" perk, which should take care of the money issues.

[Vulcan]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Last time I did a ridiculously sharp sword (AP Pen) I just defaulted to 'magic.' Yours sounds a lot better.

[Basil]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Unworkable. "Hardness" as used by geologists and mineralogists refers to ability to scratch other materials and not be scratched by them. At typical temperatures, pressures, and other conditions, diamond can scratch anything else and not be scratched. However, it shatters easily. It is useless as a weapon for this reason.

 

Unless the boron compounds are extremely resistant to breakage, they will be useless as well. And I doubt they are any better than diamond; the mineralogist's "hardness" is a product of crystal rigidity, and that leads to an easily shattered material.

 

A sword does not kill through mere sharpness, nor mere ability to scratch. It kills because it smashes through skin, muscle, and bone. A sword is, in the final analysis, a specialized wedge. Resiliency, a bit of flexibility, and the ability to hold an edge despite repeated battering are what is needed. And, frankly, I've never heard of anything better than pattern-welded steel (Damascus and "samurai" swords are two types of pattern-welded steel).

 

Oh, and don't forget:

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt. -- Tao Te Ching, (chapter 9) by Lao Tzu translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English.

[mikesama]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Honestly a good sword blade should have some flexibility be able to be honed to a good edge and hold that edge. Extremely durable metals are actually counter productive as they loose flexibility. You make the sword stronger by blade design and proper technique (here's the big hint, never ever ever block or parry with the flat of the blade)

[novi]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

I'll just concur that for a realistic sword, it's hard to beat a folded steel blade. You might change around the exact alloys used, or up it from two types to three types of alloy in the blade. Not guaranteed to actually be useful, but sounds neater.

 

Of course, the other question is what type of sword are you wielding? Are you going for a thrusting type or a slashing type? Will you be dodging attacks, or parrying a lot? And are you going for a light and nimble sword or a giant claymore, or something in between? It's important, as the second rule of engineering is "one size does not fit all".

[Shike019]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

The sword was going to look like a samurai sword in design, but I wanted to see if there could be better materials, that we know of in the real world, for sword making besides variations on carbon steel. BTW I got the idea watching a documentary on bullet proof vests and thought the idea would be interesting to explore. And since I don't have a great amount of knowledge in metallurgy and what not, I thought I would ask.

 

Any other ideas on different types of materials that might be better suited to swordmaking than steel? again the design is a katana, thought if need be different techniques can be developed in story for the actual forging process, but I want the design to be that of a katana.

[mwiggins]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

If you want to know about the real advancements in sword forging and metalurgy go to www.anvilfire.com

[Zeropoint]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

And, frankly, I've never heard of anything better than pattern-welded steel (Damascus and "samurai" swords are two types of pattern-welded steel).

 

I have.

 

 

(here's the big hint, never ever ever block or parry with the flat of the blade)

 

Seriously? You're advocating blocking with the EDGE, the thinnest and most delicate part of the blade? That's a good way to notch your sword. The only way you can get away with this is if your sword is considerably harder in the edge than your opponent's sword.

 

Examination of recovered medieval swords (you know, swords that were owned by people who were professionally trained to fight with them, as a then-current weapon of war) shows that they routinely blocked with the flat.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

hey Zerofire I was just about to post that article it was the first thing i thought of when this thread came up.

[Shike019]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

I have.

 

 

 

 

Seriously? You're advocating blocking with the EDGE, the thinnest and most delicate part of the blade? That's a good way to notch your sword. The only way you can get away with this is if your sword is considerably harder in the edge than your opponent's sword.

 

Examination of recovered medieval swords (you know, swords that were owned by people who were professionally trained to fight with them, as a then-current weapon of war) shows that they routinely blocked with the flat.

 

Thanks, this is great stuff. How about materials other than steel? Any Ideas?

[Vulcan]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

In the Cross-Time Engineer series of books there is a normal (looking) sword with a micron-thick diamond sheet through the center, giving it superior cutting ability (the hero cuts the edge off of knives to give a demonstration). No idea if it would work in real life, but it's good enough for fiction!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

I'd do some research on metallic glass.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

I have.

 

Seriously? You're advocating blocking with the EDGE, the thinnest and most delicate part of the blade? That's a good way to notch your sword. The only way you can get away with this is if your sword is considerably harder in the edge than your opponent's sword.

 

Examination of recovered medieval swords (you know, swords that were owned by people who were professionally trained to fight with them, as a then-current weapon of war) shows that they routinely blocked with the flat.

 

Problem is, of course, that Japanese swords were very sharp, but brittle in the cross-section. Blocking with the flat would break it. The deal with bokken is that, being wood and fairly tough, they could easily break your katana, if you tried blocking with the flat. Modern steel might change that, of course.

[Basil]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

I have.

 

Wired? I trust that rag as much as I did OMNI Mag.

 

That article is nothing but a reprint of this "QuesTek"'s public relations handout(s). Anyway, they're making a big whoop-de-do about the material's hardness, and I've already gone over why hardness is nothing to brag about.

 

Sorry, but I stand by what I said before.

[Markdoc]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Seriously? You're advocating blocking with the EDGE, the thinnest and most delicate part of the blade? That's a good way to notch your sword. The only way you can get away with this is if your sword is considerably harder in the edge than your opponent's sword.

 

Examination of recovered medieval swords (you know, swords that were owned by people who were professionally trained to fight with them, as a then-current weapon of war) shows that they routinely blocked with the flat.

 

You're mostly right - but the issue (as with anything medieval) is pretty complex. In general medival swordfighting, as far as I can tell, did not use the sword parry much if at all, relying on armour and the shield. Many swords, which we know were used in battle, show no signs of parrying damage at all, though they show signs of having been used to cut hard things (including human bone, in some cases). Several of the renaissance fencing manuals actively discouraged the use of the parry at all (though others do advocate it). The conclusion I take from this is that in many areas, the sword parry was considered a desperation move.

 

It's a mistake, often made, to project modern techniques of swordsmanship and our own, modern idea of "martial arts" back onto an era when both concepts were unknown and swordfighting only part of a highly specialised skill aimed at combat in armor.

 

In the 1700's, when swords were still used in battle, instructions for their use were printed. The ones from "Rules and Regulations for the Sword Exercise of the Cavalry" which was printed in 1796 for the War office in Whitehall, states:

"The utmost attention must be paid not to oppose the edge to the enemy's sabre when it can be avoided; but the bevel: which can only be done, by placing the thumb between the back plate and the ear of the sword, and keeping it firm in that position, the arm to be properly distended, for the purpose of resisting the force of the blow." (p. 28-29)

The "bevel" referred to is the side of the sword closest to the edge.

 

However, the highland foot regiments, which tended to use much heavier infantry swords, may have trained using an edge parry. In that case, perhaps the damge to the edge - which was in any case much less fine - was considered acceptable, since the heavy sword was used for a long time together with a targe, so the sword parry may have been an auxilliary technique. Alternatively, this may be a confusing of bevel and edge.

 

Last of all, many medieval swords have what is called a fort - a thickened, unsharpened base to the blade which in some cases, could be up to a third of the sword's length. This was apparently used for parrying, or - if we can believe some of the German feltbuche - for breaking your opponent's sword in a counterstrike.

 

So there you have it: in real life sword combat, the edge is used for parrying, never, rarely, or occasionally, depending on the style of sword and style of fighting

 

cheers, Mark

 

If you want some informative, if slightly ranty discursions on the topic you can try:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/parry.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/edgemyth.htm

[pinecone]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Yet annother practice was to block with the "back" of the sword....so you protect the attacking edge, avoid breaking (if you have a brittle sword) and possably freaking your opponite out because you used your sword to parry.

 

One reason pattern welds are so great is they layer soft steel (flexable, resists breakage) with hard steel (takes an edge, holds an edge) I was told that a skilled swordsman avoids

a stroke, but if you do parry use the back of the katana...potato, pot-ah-to....

[Vulcan]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

Samurai aren't reall big on parrying, in my limited understanding. Most samurai duels (not the epic ones between two masters, but run-of-the-mill duels between typical samurai) lasted exactly one pass, with each samurai making one strike. One or both usually fell over dead or badly wounded afterwards.

 

Any Kendo practicioners out there? Are straight-up blocks part of the technique, or is parrying more of a deflection techniqe?

 

Now in fencing, the parry is a big thing, but the fencing weapons are in general primarily built for the thrust/stab. Parrys are usually done by forcing the other sword to slide along the side of your blade to the area you want it (i.e. not in you). A fencer trying to straight-up block a greatsword is going to get his rapier broken, just before he dies.

[Querysphinx]

Re: Modern Swordsmithing

 

It all comes back to "what are you trying to do with it?" Are you trying to cut up people, cut up trees, cut up tanks? The physical limits of the force you can deliver with a muscle powered weapon employed by a human are fairly straightforward and very well understood. The variables are Force, Lever, and Wedge (which is just another kind of lever.) Force is the amount of force you can apply with your muscles and mass and any stored up momentum you happen to posses (say from running). Lever is the mechanical advantage of that force based on the length of the weapon and the placement of the fulcrum. Wedge is the mechanical multiplication of that force by the sharpness of the blade. Most of those variables have been pretty well maxed out by several thousand years of sword smithing experience. Many medieval European swords were essentially nothing more than long metal clubs. They were very good for killing people. The Japanese katana was a very elegant, extremely sharp weapon. It was also very good for killing people. Making a sword "better" therefore requires the parameter: better for what?