Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Well, last night, while reading through Fantasy Hero 6E, I figured out how to rebuild the entire GURPS magic system, prerequisites and all. The exact END costs might not be 100% accurate, but you'd have the whole book of GURPS Magic spells, nearly 100% identical to actual GURPS. I don't recall all the ways to do it, but I could figure it out again if someone was really interested in doing that. I'm not. I don't want the GURPS magic system verbatum dropped into HERO. I want spells to be built individually and bought individually, like any other power is normally done. I might put a spell divisor (say divide by 2 or 3) in there to make sure spells are cheap enough to buy and they get enough spells with enough variety and power, but basically standard HERO powers will be spells - no required limitations, or close to it. Then I want to layer the flavor of Umana on top of that (basically casters have no artificial limits in what they can do, they could destroy an entire army with a single spell in theory - only the threat of calamity keeps them from pumping out giant spell after giant spell constantly). I still think my initial idea is the simplest method of doing that. Take the real points in the spell, divide by 10 and round off (just to make the math smaller - instead of adding 54 to your tally each time, it'll be 5). Otherwise, basically use Umana as written. I might even keep the 30 threshold and 8 recovery, though I can't be sure, that would require some playtesting to get right, I'm afraid.

 

I would still like to get Steve Long's opinion on it, even if just privately, just in case the master can see something I'm missing, but I can't see a better way to handle it at this point even with all the ideas thrown out thus far. They've been some good ideas, just not quite hitting the target on exactly what I want. Would it be considered inappropriate to PM Mr. Long and ask him to chime in this thread when he's got a second?

 

I still welcome more input, it'll be some time before I put this into practice, so feel free to continue discussion, I'm not 100% set in stone yet and I'll be watching this thread.

[Lucius]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

First of all, I followed the link. The system reminds me a little of White Wolf's Mage – which in this case is not a bad thing.

 

Well, standard GURPS magic basically costs END to cast a spell and you need to know the skill to cast it. A cost of 1, 2 or 3 is generally "standard" cost, area spells being a bit different but safely ignored for this discussion I think, and a cost of 10-15 END are like the most powerful spells in the game. There are devices called 'powerstones' which essentially act as END reserves to boost basic magical power, to be used and introduced into the campaign world at the GM's deciding.

 

Umana removes the END cost and instead has you start with a tally of 0 and add your spell costs

 

And by “spell costs” here you mean the exact same thing that you mean by “END cost” earlier in the sentence. Unless I misread the article completely.

 

You're not really REMOVING the END cost, you're REDIRECTING it to a “tally.”

 

to that number until you hit a threshold, then roll for calamity. Your tally recovers daily (or monthly, weekly, whatever the GM desires really) at 8 points for each recovery, and your threshold is 30 (or whatever the GM desires and can even be 0).

 

#1, Spells don't make you tired in Umana rules, so why the END reserve, why make spells cost END?

 

Why the End Reserve? Precisely BECAUSE “Spells don't make you tired.”

END Reserve doesn't “make you tired” either.

 

When you say “Tally,” Hero System says “END Reserve.”

 

Now, the tricky part is that in Umana, there's no real upper limit; there's nothing keeping a magician from fueling a thousand END spell if he wants to badly enough and is willing to go down to do it and take the world with him.

 

#2, You've already calculated the active and real costs of the spell (power), which is a better gauge of the "power" of the spell unless I'm mistaken, which is what the cost to cast the spell represents in GURPS. Thus the reason I favor using the Real Points in some way - it's a better measure of a spells power, no?

 

No.

 

Again, unless I completely misread the article linked to, they're not trying to directly measure a spells “power.” The numbers are based on a spell's Fatigue cost, which maps exactly to END in that, if I understand GURPS, both Fatigue and ENDurance are, yes, tied to a spell's overall “power level” but do NOT necessarily reflect it exactly. Consider for example that in GURPS a skilled wizard can eliminate part or all of a spell's Fatigue cost, and does not seem to do this by making the spell “less powerful.”

 

#3, the "infinite" push is actually an optional rule that says the level of magery (advantage that lets you cast spells) you have (can be infinite but recommended to cap at 3-10 depending on power level you want) can be used to power "pushable" spells, but not all spells are such spells, usually just the damaging ones like Fireball (cost=1 you do 1d6 damage, cost=2 you do 2d6 damage, cost=3 you do 3d6 damage, etc.).

 

And as I already noted, this “infinite push” would be the tricky part to implement in Hero.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm genuinely trying to understand as I'm still a bit of a noob with HERO. In Umana, the spirit of the rules say that magic is to be extremely powerful, a mage does not simply not cast spells because he is tired or doesn't have the power to pay the cost of casting it, but because if too much magic is used - bad things happen – Ooooooo....

 

Which leads me to one comment I have to make on this system and its assumptions,

 

It's handing every spell caster in the world the ability to, more or less at will, trigger an unpredictable global catastrophe. I'd expect any world that's been around a while with magic of this type to have quite a few weird disasters in its history.

 

 

 

 

 

Umana is probably my favorite magic system ever. I love the fact that it does not impose artificial restrictions on a wizard, he limits his own casting voluntarily.

 

alms66, I agree with you on using real points instead of END.

 

The whole END cost thing is nice and "rules legal" and the END reserve is a clever way to implement this. But END is not really a fair measure of a spell's power unless the GM prohibits the "reduced END" and "Extra END" modifiers, and requires all spells to use END.

 

And the GURPS system linked to is also not taking “really a fair measure of a spell's power.” It's measuring by Fatigue, which is exactly what END is.

 

So if we're talking about converting the system described in the linked article, we are (or should be) talking about using END costs to measure spells. If we're talking about something else, I'm just confused, carry on.

 

Does this mean that END scales with a power's increase in... uh... power?

 

The ironic thing, alms, is that Hero END tracks a spell's power closer than GURPS Fatigue does.

 

I may have missed this in the rules, but aren't there some powers which could be used as spells that simply don't cost END when built, and if so, how much would that then cost in END if you required all spells to use END? A power limitation - uses END or something like that would define it?

 

Yes, exactly. The Limitation “Costs END” (which could, of course, mean an END Reserve) makes a Power that otherwise had no END cost, have an END cost related to its Active Points.

 

I'm trying to do this as simply as possible, and HERO claiming that it can do anything, should be able to do this simply,

 

Claiming Hero can do anything isn't the same as saying it can do it simply – or cheaply.

 

I am working on this. I like Oddhat's method, but it doesn't quite seem to completely fit.

 

Me too, although there may still be better ways...

 

I could see building this as an Aid/Succor construct. (Still in 5th here' date=' BTW) say a 2-4d6 Aid with a much increased maximum threshold , so it can be used repeatedly to boost another spells power level. Add side effects to the aid (& maybe a cumulative skill penalty) based on the total AP of the spell being boosted. Limit the Aid so it burns Long Term Endurance. I like Unluck for the SE, but you can do lots of tricksty things with Cumulative Transform Side Effects[/quote']

 

I kind of like the Aid idea too, but not necessarily “used repeatedly” - I don't want to go back and reread the article, but I don't remember anything about having to “build up” to these epic levels of power – you just have to decide it's worth the risk, and if it only takes a second to decide that, you're there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Also, if we're simulating the GURPS Umana system, I have to say that using Long Term END is all wrong. If anything, I'd put the AID or Succor on Recoverable Charges.

 

I'm not going to quote Markdoc's long post, but I will say it may be the best, most workable proposal yet.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unlimited Palindromedary

[Markdoc]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Well, last night, while reading through Fantasy Hero 6E, I figured out how to rebuild the entire GURPS magic system, prerequisites and all. The exact END costs might not be 100% accurate, but you'd have the whole book of GURPS Magic spells, nearly 100% identical to actual GURPS. I don't recall all the ways to do it, but I could figure it out again if someone was really interested in doing that. I'm not. I don't want the GURPS magic system verbatum dropped into HERO. I want spells to be built individually and bought individually, like any other power is normally done. I might put a spell divisor (say divide by 2 or 3) in there to make sure spells are cheap enough to buy and they get enough spells with enough variety and power, but basically standard HERO powers will be spells - no required limitations, or close to it. Then I want to layer the flavor of Umana on top of that (basically casters have no artificial limits in what they can do, they could destroy an entire army with a single spell in theory - only the threat of calamity keeps them from pumping out giant spell after giant spell constantly). I still think my initial idea is the simplest method of doing that. Take the real points in the spell, divide by 10 and round off (just to make the math smaller - instead of adding 54 to your tally each time, it'll be 5). Otherwise, basically use Umana as written. I might even keep the 30 threshold and 8 recovery, though I can't be sure, that would require some playtesting to get right, I'm afraid.

 

I would still like to get Steve Long's opinion on it, even if just privately, just in case the master can see something I'm missing, but I can't see a better way to handle it at this point even with all the ideas thrown out thus far. They've been some good ideas, just not quite hitting the target on exactly what I want. Would it be considered inappropriate to PM Mr. Long and ask him to chime in this thread when he's got a second?

 

I still welcome more input, it'll be some time before I put this into practice, so feel free to continue discussion, I'm not 100% set in stone yet and I'll be watching this thread.

 

A simple question. Since the points in a spell are not limited, how do you buy them? Normally 1d6, 5 d6 and 10 d6 points in a power have different effects and cost different amounts. If you can expand them at will, what keeps you from only ever buying a minimum investment in a spell? And if you allowed that, why would anyone ever play anything but a mage?

 

cheers, Mark

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

END Reserve vs Tally

Umana has no upper limit to what can be cast, and well, the END reserve is a set amount of points you can spend and a tally is just an infinite tally of what you've spent. To me that's a world of difference so I don't see using an END Reserve as the best way to do this.

Besides, there's no apparent way to use energy beyond this reserve.

 

Power vs Fagiue

Umana is basing everything on fatigue costs, the standard GURPS method, which is a reflection of the power of the spell - more powerful spells cost more fatigue to cast. However, I'm not interesting in modeling GURPS magic's mechanics, just Umana's mechanics. Again, to clearly separate the two for everyone, Umana is just this:

A wizard has no limitations on what he can cast other than his own desire not to destroy himself. Or, mechanically Tally/Threshold/Recovery Rate.

 

 

Ok, so let's do a quick recap of what I need to do to make HERO and Umana play together nicely...

1. There can be no artificial restrictions on a caster's ability to cast spells. He can cast any spell at any time, regardless of how powerful that spell is. He knows his own threshold, recovery rate and tally, so he can monitor the chances of calamity and do what he needs to do to avoid them.

2. There can be no artificial restrictions on creating a spell, no required limitations or advantages (technically this isn't needed, but in the spirit of Umana).

(Since it's already been shown that a spell can be created which doesn't cost END, it seems the only way to track a spell's power and thus tally it, is via the points it would cost to build the spell as a power - Real Points being a more accurate representation given they reflect limitations the spell was created with)

3. Spells will be bought by wizard characters as a skill, spell by spell, individual skills. Wizards will also be required to buy a Magical Talent for the ability to cast spells. There will be talents available to change an individual wizard's threshold and recovery rate as per the Umana rules. (I may not have stated this before, but this is how I intend to handle these things using HERO rules - NOT by modeling the GURPS magic system - I just needed to find the simplest method of tacking Umana rules into the system, and it still seems to me I did that best in my first post).

 

So why would a wizard not simply build all of his spells as gigantic 16d damage mega-death spells? He can create them, he can buy them as skills and he can cast them - at least he'll be able to cast it once, but it'll kill him. I mean, if you build a spell with 750 Real Points, and we do the 'divide by 10' thing and add that number to your tally, assuming I keep the threshold at 30 and this wizard didn't buy extra threshold, that's 45 points past your threshold and a +45 to your calamity roll - instant death. There would be no reason to have such a spell since you could never use it, without killing yourself. That is, unless you wanted a spell to use if you knew you were going to die anyway and just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

[dmjalund]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

one possible modification, is allow the mage to take on certain limitations to reduce the Tally cost of a spell (like extra time, consumable foci, incantations throughout, ete) the flavour of these limitations would be specific to each spell

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

one possible modification' date=' is allow the mage to take on certain limitations to reduce the Tally cost of a spell (like extra time, consumable foci, incantations throughout, ete) the flavour of these limitations would be specific to each spell[/quote']

Oh yeah, definitely what I was thinking. Just because there are no required limitations doesn't mean that the spell can't be created with some to reduce it's Real Points and thus it's increase to your tally. In fact I can see different players choosing different "standard" sets of limitations giving you some wizards that must always pay END, those that must have their staff to cast spells, those that must always carry consumable foci, those that must always speak, etc. It will almost give the sense that there are dozens of different magic systems in play at once, yet there is really only one very freeform one in place.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

This isn't as difficult as it seems at first glance.

 

First, the "Tally" (I think Mana is more appropriate term) should most assuredly be based on the END cost of a particular spell. Doesn't matter if a spell is designed with a power that costs no End, It still gets "Tallied" as if it costs Active Points/10. This isn't actually Endurance, just keeping track of how much Mana you've manipulated throughout the day, as per the GURPS Umana system. The reason why I say based on END is because END is based on Active Points, which is a much better indication of a Power/Spell's general effectiveness than Real Points. Easily Circumventable limitations can be stacked to significantly reduce the Real Points of a spell and thus give false indications of its true power.

 

Spells still require a Skill Roll to cast, and the Skill Roll is still modified by Active Points/10 (or AP/5 or AP/20 or however you want to do it). This is your basic feature used to keep mages in check to a small degree. Lesser skilled mages aren't going to be busting out 100 Active Point spells because that is simply too much power to manipulate all at once for their current capabilities.

 

Spells probably shouldn't be purchased normally with this system. I would probably use the Spell Skill method where you have to buy a seperate skill for each individual spell your character learns. (or for those lenient GM's, a seperate skill for each category like Fire Magic, Water Magic, Air Magic, Summoning etc)

 

Individual spells in this system will be designed in a very basic/plain fashion. Use the minimum Advantages necessary to represent the spell. Pretty much all spells in this system have the Variable Advantage advantage that can be applied at any level. Thus the mage can increase the area of effect for his fire ball, or the range, or both if he wants to really pump the Active Points. Of course the basic dice/effect can be pumped up as well.

 

The "Threshold" of the mage should probably be based on the mage's Mental Characteristics. My gut instinct is to make it the sum of their INT, PRE and EGO. Thus a mage with a 10 in each category has a Threshold of 30pts which matches up exactly to what is stated as the normal in GURPS. Thus an "average" Mage could cast 5 60AP spells in a single day, or a single 150AP spell in a day or 30 10AP spells in a day or any combination thereof adding up to 30 Active Points. With this system in place, a burly mage with a 20 in all Mental Characteristics (Threshold of 60) can pump out a single 300 Active Point spell without going supernova! Thats pretty hefty in Hero.

 

Mana Recovery should probably be based on the sum of your Mental Characteristics divided by 5. Thus the "average" mage (Threshold of 30) has a Recovery of 6 per day. Maybe you want to allow Threshold and Recovery stats to be bought up seperately. I don't see a problem with that as long as players remain reasonable.

 

As far as the Calamity table is concerned, just write one up. Add to the roll on the Calamity table for every point (or every 5 points or whatever) they go over their threshold. Low rolls on the table have no effect (got off lucky) or the effects are extremely minor and limited to the mage himself. Higher rolls are more devastating and eventually reach out and effect the world around the mage (including his or her comrades). A mage who pushes his or her luck will eventually get a bum roll and do some serious damage. At which point, the mages comrades will become a deterrent; "Are you sure you want to do that Raistlin? You remember what happened the last time you tried to wield so much power at once!"

 

Just make sure you flavor the Calamity table with effects like draining Body from the local wildlife and plantlife. Instantly removing all the moisture from the surrounding air for a few mile radius (Megascale Change Enviroment). Causing all the stone in 100 yards to crumble to dust (drain Body, only vs stone/brick/mortar). Make sure the collateral damage gets more impressive/destructive the higher you roll on the Table.

 

I don't see why a system like this couldn't work. If the GM can handle the bookeeping and the extreme flexibility it give mages spells, it should be very playable.

 

It could definitely support that whole "I'm saving my magic for when we really need it" feel. The mage who saves all his magic power can unleash a big spell without worrying about going over his Threshold too much.

[Lucius]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

END Reserve vs Tally

Umana has no upper limit to what can be cast, and well, the END reserve is a set amount of points you can spend and a tally is just an infinite tally of what you've spent. To me that's a world of difference so I don't see using an END Reserve as the best way to do this.

 

Now I think of it, a tally is counting up, and an END Reserve is counting down - so you may be right that an END Reserve is not necessarily ideal for this purpose.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Reserve

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Now I think of it, a tally is counting up, and an END Reserve is counting down - so you may be right that an END Reserve is not necessarily ideal for this purpose.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Reserve

 

Well, ultimately it doesn't really matter if you "Count up" or subtract from a pool as per the usual END Reserve rules. The main thing is to keep track of the "Threshold" and roll on the Calamity table when that Threshold has been exceeded (or depleted in a subtraction scenario). The end result would be the same.

 

But remember, just because you are out of END doesn't mean that you can't do things that cost End anymore, it just means those things are gonna take a toll on your body now by doing 1D6 Stun damage for every 2 End you go below 0. The Calamity effects can be considered an extension of this rule to effect things beyond the mage him or herself...

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Also' date=' maybe the side effects should somehow be made even more random, although I can't think of a rules legal way to that. In the original system, both the likelihood of something bad happening and the specific effect were random.[/quote']

Sure; just make the Side Effect a No Conscious Control VPP.

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Active vs Real Points

But, if you only use Active and a limitation is used against the player, say breaking his staff so he can no longer cast spells, wouldn't that player feel very cheated by the fact that you don't take that limitation into account? Or is it enough that it lowered the cost to buy the spell in the first place (assuming you're buying spells individually as powers)?

 

Purchasing spells

I really don't see how the method of purchasing the spells will affect anything other than some methods are cheaper than others, but using a cost divisor can bring down the cost of buying spells individually anyway, so you can easily remedy that. Is there something else I"m missing?

 

Tally vs Reserve

My main argument against the reserve is that HERO has no rules for exceeding it, thus the Umana tally method is better. It really doesn't require anything specific from HERO either, it's usable with any game system, so that's nice too.

 

As for the calamities causing permanent scars on a campaign world, there's also that "heal calamity" spell at the bottom of the Umana article - I think I'll do something like that to keep from having too many overly devastating events in the world's history.

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Ok, I think I've finally got a handle on this...

 

1. END Reserve is the caster's threshold and recovery rate. If the caster does not buy one, he's effectively causing a calamity roll with every casting. Recovery must be purchased with a -6 Slow Recovery (once per day) limitation.

2. END cost for spells is a minimum of 1. This makes END the way to track a spell's power, not Active/Real points.

3. END Reserve can be exceeded. As per Umana, for each full 5 points it is exceeded, you get a +1 to the calamity roll. Whether you start your reserve at say 40 and subtract END or start at 0 and tally up to the reserve's limit of 40 - doesn't really matter, though I prefer the latter to avoid dealing with negative values since that tends to put some players of for some reason.

 

It's incredibly simple just as I wanted, and I have to thank you guys for beating the END and END Reserve into me enough for me to finally "get it" while I was re-reading the END Reserve rules tonight. This gets Umana fully working with HERO and has no real impact on how a character buys his spells, meaning you can tack it on to just about any other magic system and have it still work just fine - which is exactly how I wanted it because I plan on doing just that.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Once per day is not a -6 limitation - Check "Extra Time".

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Once per day is not a -6 limitation - Check "Extra Time".

 

Actually... "Slow Recovery" is a Limitation against the REC of an END Reserve. -6 is right for 1 Day (6E1 p. 206).

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Actually... "Slow Recovery" is a Limitation against the REC of an END Reserve. -6 is right for 1 Day (6E1 p. 206).

...So it is.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Glad you have a method that you like!

[Alcamtar]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Thanks for hashing this all out, alms66, I'll probably end up using it too

[alms66]

Re: Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

 

Glad you have a method that you like!

Well, it's basically the method everyone's been telling me to use, even you a few posts up, it just took me a while to realize it was right...

Noob...

 

Thanks for hashing this all out' date=' alms66, I'll probably end up using it too[/quote']

No problem. We should also thank everyone who bashed the END for spell cost and END Reserve into my brain in this thread - as well as Steve Long, whose PM (I couldn't resist, I had to ask his opinion) was the trigger that finally made the switch flip when I sat down and read the END Reserve rules in 6E1 last night. Thanks everyone.