High STR + HKAs, thoughts

[Tech]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Does the Hero get to choose his powers' date=' or does he get the powers that coincidence gave him? I don't think Ben Grimm asked to look like that, and I bet Reed Richards would have chosen a different power set given the opportunity to design his own powers.[/quote']

 

Reading it again I can see I wasn't clear; my question should've read:

 

"If the character is a hero, why is the player wanting so much KA? Why not do a Haymaker?"

 

Specifically, why Killing Attack? It seems to me the player is wanting to be able to roll lots of Body damage when he wants to, but at severe disadvantages.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Reading it again I can see I wasn't clear; my question should've read:

 

"If the character is a hero, why is the player wanting so much KA? Why not do a Haymaker?"

 

Specifically, why Killing Attack? It seems to me the player is wanting to be able to roll lots of Body damage when he wants to, but at severe disadvantages.

 

Once again, the heroes don't get to choose their powers. I can't count the number of times I've had to look at a player and say "I fully understand why the character would want the ability to do this. I completely understand why the player would want his character to have that ability. Now explain to me why, based on his background and the description of his powers, the character would, in fact, HAVE that power."

 

Cyclops would love to be able to control his eyebeams, and it would make life easier for the player. Batman's mission would be so much easier if he had a Green Lantern ring. Imagine how happy SpiderMan would be to NOT have all that blasted unluck, and to be able to fly. But they don't - it's not in character. The player who buys abilities because "they sure would be useful" instead of because "they are in character" is not a good player.

 

Now, the specific player in question may or may not be buying an "I want" power or a "In concept" power. Only the GM can assess that. But leaping to the conclusion that this is an out of concept power selected solely for its mechanical benefits isn't a conclusion I think we can rationally reach with the facts we have. The character might be much better off, and much happier, with a Healing Touch, but his HTH powers sound destructive in nature and, oh look, he wants to buy another destructive power instead.

[braincraft]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

The character might be much better off' date=' and much happier, with a Healing Touch, but his HTH powers sound destructive in nature and, oh look, he wants to buy another destructive power instead.[/quote']

 

Dude, I think he just wanted to know why the guy took such a suboptimal route to doing more damage. If it's in-concept for the character to have a 'deadly' attack (though a 20d6 haymaker will murder a normal human just as well as a 6d6 Killing attack), that's fine. But if the player just wanted his character to have a one-shot howitzer, he could have just bought some extra HA with the same limitations, and spent considerably fewer points to do so.

 

The other option is that the guy is trying to game the system by playing the stun lottery, but it's not a very efficient way of doing so.

 

All in all, it's a weird power to spend so many points on. It's the same in terms of DCs as a haymakered punch, but it does slightly more body, is more dangerous to targets without resistant defenses, and has a much more variable stun damage range. As I said, if he just wanted to punch harder, it's cheaper and easier to use HA. We're trying to make sure there's a specific reason for using HKA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Dude' date=' I think he just wanted to know why the guy took such a suboptimal route to doing more damage. [/quote']

 

Clearly he's the Anti-Munchkin!

[BNakagawa]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

one aspect of having a lopsided killing attack is that the character now becomes the gold standard for breaking things.

 

If there is any tangible object in the game that has plot significance, either that PC can break it or nobody can. (handwavium, nonwithstanding)

 

This includes automata, force walls, vehicles, death machines, walls, foci, entangles, and of course, adversaries.

 

The other potentially unbalancing side to this power is that if any of the other PCs has any power that can reduce and/or negate a target's DCV, then the KA becomes essentially a death sentence.

 

I'd be very hesitant about allowing such a construct in a game. YMMV

[Nerdnumber1]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I don't see a problem with it. Any Super Villian with 2 brain cells would be able to figure out a way to counter that ability if it gains any noteriety, as would any GM know how to counter it if game balance is damaged. Let's see, a one shot that can only be used in close combat and severely hampers the hero's defence, how can I stop it...

• Fly/keep distance
  
• Send a decoy to force pre-mature use (What do you mean the giant robot was paper mache!?)
  
• high dcv
  
• preemptive strike
  
• str/power drain/transfer/suppress
  
• Barriers
  
• various other anti-brick tactics
  

I'm not saying that a Supervillian (or GM) would immediately make the power useless, but would make preparations if it became infamous for its power. If the Villian/GM is paticularly cruel, (s)he could create a situation that causes the hero to unknowingly killing an innocent by this attack (robot enemy with someone sealed inside, reletively safe from harm, unless the brick hits hard enough to shatter the bot and turn the hostage into a red mess).

[casualplayer]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Alright, what does everyone think of this power? A player is playing it in one of my upcoming campaigns. He has a 70 STR, so I'm a little dubious on allowing him to use this, but it does have potent advantages.

 

45 pt HKA

5x Endurance (-2)

Major Side Effect (Drain Body 3d6, occurs every time the power successfully strikes an opponent, Delayed Return Rate (5 minutes), -1/4)

Lockout (Locks out the Golden Glow (HtH) and Divine Glow (Forcefield) powers until the BODY drained by the Side Effect fully returns, -1/2)

45 Active Points, 12 Real Points

22.5 END per use

 

Thoughts on over all power? It's a basic 350 point Superhero game.

 

This reeks of Trying to Put One Over on the GM. Firstly, it has Disadvantages that aren't Disadvantages for this character. The END usage would be something, if one REC from this character didn't wipe the slate clean. The BODY Drain that only occurs when he successfully hits is nicely abated by the character's 25 BODY. The Lockout locks out two powers that matter minimally.

 

Secondly, the power would be 3 Real Points more expensive if he only had the x5 END on the power. He's padding the "Disadvantages" so that you'll greenlight this power and he knows you would veto it if it was built with only x5 END.

 

If you do OK this, expect to see him use this power every Segment 12 in Turns where he went relatively unscathed and didn't use much END because his post-12 REC will wipe away most all of the drawbacks. Oh no, combat begins on Segment 12! I bet that never occured to the player!

[Fireg0lem]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Can we get a full writeup for the character? It's hard to judge on its own. Even if the BODY damage isn't too bad for him in a low-lethality environment, locking out a force field that would normally always be up for 5 minutes is pretty harsh. I'd probably allow this, although I would really recommend using either x3 Stun Multiplier fixed, or Hit Locations, since otherwise it's a last-ditch Stun Lotto power.

 

The Lockout locks out two powers that matter minimally.

 

If you do OK this, expect to see him use this power every Segment 12 in Turns where he went relatively unscathed and didn't use much END because his post-12 REC will wipe away most all of the drawbacks. Oh no, combat begins on Segment 12! I bet that never occured to the player!

 

This is the big question, how big is that forcefield? 14 PD/ 8 ED is a very low amount of defense for a 350-point character, and is the main thing to stop what casualplayer is suggesting; locking out half of one's defense on the first action you get is not a good tactic at all.

[braincraft]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

This reeks of Trying to Put One Over on the GM.

 

Honestly? If the guy is trying to game the system, he's not very good at it. There are so many better, cheaper, simpler, easier ways to accomplish the 'haymaker' effect, including but not limited to the use of the actual Haymaker maneuver. If this guy were in one of my campaigns, I'd ask him to change it... to something more efficient.

[casualplayer]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

This is the big question' date=' how big is that forcefield? 14 PD/ 8 ED is a very low amount of defense for a 350-point character, and is the main thing to stop what casualplayer is suggesting; locking out half of one's defense on the first action you get is not a good tactic at all.[/quote']

 

All the character has to do is go unscathed or delay his action on the DEX count until last, fire his boom stick and then scoot into post-12 Land. RECover END, Lockout gone, BODY only down to non-ridiculous levels.

 

Even if this is a poorly designed Voltron's Sword, it's still a Voltron's Sword. Letting this into your game will mean highly non-dramatic stories where Captain Razorfist one-shots your megavillain or you will have to buff your megavillain to the point where the other players can't scuff him.

 

Seen it, played with it, didn't enjoy it (even though the person with it was on my team!)

[Mr. R]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

All the character has to do is go unscathed or delay his action on the DEX count until last, fire his boom stick and then scoot into post-12 Land. RECover END, Lockout gone, BODY only down to non-ridiculous levels.

 

Even if this is a poorly designed Voltron's Sword, it's still a Voltron's Sword. Letting this into your game will mean highly non-dramatic stories where Captain Razorfist one-shots your megavillain or you will have to buff your megavillain to the point where the other players can't scuff him.

 

Seen it, played with it, didn't enjoy it (even though the person with it was on my team!)

 

I have to agree with this statement as it also happened to me. Let a power slide cause I was assure "It's a last ditch power!! Look it only has 3 charges and costs a ton of end and takes a full phase!!!" Next thing I know as soon as the big baddie shows out comes the Arrow of Nuke Power. Lucky role on the stun lotto and villain goes down. I finally had to tell the player we change it or all the baddies get nastier to survive your attack, and I am sure the other players don't want me ramping up defenses just for you. Seriously for your piece of mind now and later (expect an argument if you let this in, possibly a bad one) tell him tone it down or no go. Pick a damage class level, yours seems around 14, and stick to it. That means 2d6+1 max that is 4.5d6 w/str. The game you save may be yours.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

All the character has to do is go unscathed or delay his action on the DEX count until last' date=' fire his boom stick and then scoot into post-12 Land. RECover END, Lockout gone, BODY only down to non-ridiculous levels.[/quote']

 

Unless I'm missing something, no, his force field is still locked out.

 

Major Side Effect (Drain Body 3d6, occurs every time the power successfully strikes an opponent, Delayed Return Rate (5 minutes), -1/4)

Lockout (Locks out the Golden Glow (HtH) and Divine Glow (Forcefield) powers until the BODY drained by the Side Effect fully returns, -1/2)

 

It looks to me like after he swacks someone, he can't use his force field or HA for 5 minutes.

[casualplayer]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Unless I'm missing something, no, his force field is still locked out.

 

Major Side Effect (Drain Body 3d6, occurs every time the power successfully strikes an opponent, Delayed Return Rate (5 minutes), -1/4)

Lockout (Locks out the Golden Glow (HtH) and Divine Glow (Forcefield) powers until the BODY drained by the Side Effect fully returns, -1/2)

 

It looks to me like after he swacks someone, he can't use his force field or HA for 5 minutes.

 

Point, but I would value the Lockout at -0 Disadvantage. Your defense and damage dealing matter not at all if you are the Last Man Standing. The Major Side Effect isn't also, maybe a Minor Side Effect if it took effect every time the character tried to use the power.

 

It's not like this would be a hard power to deal with as a GM (50% Physical rDamage Reduction springs to mind) but any methods you use are going to severely diminish the abilities of the other players.

[Nerdnumber1]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

New Supervillian countermeasure: Self-destructive automaton. 1hex doubled, attack triggered upon destruction. Reduce your defenses and get a howitzer in the face . This is the kind of thing that a villian would think of if they were presented with a clear threat. Superman is near-invinsible, but any villian with half a brain that faces him tries to get his hands on kryptonite or a special red lamp. No one, however, prepares countermeasures vs. less powerful supers. The MVP of the last fight, or fights, gets increased scrutiny from the enemy.

[braincraft]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I really wonder that people think this is abusively powerful in the context of a game where 70 STR isn't. The guy can get 18 DCs anyway just by performing a Haymaker maneuver; the STUN lottery is kind of stupid for one-shot attacks, since if it doesn't take out the target he's crippling himself with the side effects. Even if it does take out the target reliably (it won't, for any target against which 70 STR punches couldn't do as well) it greatly reduces his defenses against any other opponents.

[Weldun]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I really wonder that people think this is abusively powerful in the context of a game where 70 STR isn't. The guy can get 18 DCs anyway just by performing a Haymaker maneuver; the STUN lottery is kind of stupid for one-shot attacks' date=' since if it doesn't take out the target he's crippling himself with the side effects. Even if it does take out the target reliably (it won't, for any target against which 70 STR punches couldn't do as well) it greatly reduces his defenses against any other opponents.[/quote']Except that he can then haymaker this attack...

[Checkmate]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

I really wonder that people think this is abusively powerful in the context of a game where 70 STR isn't. The guy can get 18 DCs anyway just by performing a Haymaker maneuver; the STUN lottery is kind of stupid for one-shot attacks' date=' since if it doesn't take out the target he's crippling himself with the side effects. Even if it does take out the target reliably (it won't, for any target against which 70 STR punches couldn't do as well) it greatly reduces his defenses against any other opponents.[/quote']

Using competely average rolls an 18d6 attack will do 63 STUN, and the 6d6 HKA will do 52.5 (6*3.5= 21 BODY * (3.5 - 1) = 52.5). So far so good right?

 

While you may dismiss the STUN lottery, he's going to roll a six, 1 out of every 6 times he uses the power. So if we take that completely average BODY roll of 21, every 6th roll (on average) he's going to do 105 STUN. Roll 18d8 and see how many times you come up with 105 STUN (considering if you roll all 6's it's only 108). And as Weldun has pointed out, that's not even taken into account haymakering.

 

As far as the side effects, he's really not crippling himself as a few of us have explained before.

[Marcus]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Except that he can then haymaker this attack...

 

Hmm... I dont think I'm likely to haymaker a 1 charge attack that locks out things I need. The 'sidestep' potential is just too great.

 

Sign me up for the 'much ado about nothing' crowd. Lets face it, a 14 dice brick with reasonable movement will put out attacks of 18+ damage classes PRETTY REGULARLY... probably every fight, if not more often.

 

Haymakers, Pushing, Move-Through, etc.

 

I think weve all gotten a wee bit quick to say 'no, no, bad player, here is your box, STAY INSIDE THE BOX'.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Hmm... I dont think I'm likely to haymaker a 1 charge attack that locks out things I need. The 'sidestep' potential is just too great.

 

Sign me up for the 'much ado about nothing' crowd. Lets face it, a 14 dice brick with reasonable movement will put out attacks of 18+ damage classes PRETTY REGULARLY... probably every fight, if not more often.

 

Haymakers, Pushing, Move-Through, etc.

 

I think weve all gotten a wee bit quick to say 'no, no, bad player, here is your box, STAY INSIDE THE BOX'.

 

Keep in mind that this HKA can hit 27 damage classes when pushed with a move through. 22 of that is by pushing 10 points (of the HKA) alone.

[Marcus]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

How much can this brick do, otherwise, with a move through?

 

Would it be enough to put a limitation on the manuver that it could only be used with strike?

[Tech]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Hmm... I dont think I'm likely to haymaker a 1 charge attack that locks out things I need. The 'sidestep' potential is just too great.

 

Sign me up for the 'much ado about nothing' crowd. Lets face it, a 14 dice brick with reasonable movement will put out attacks of 18+ damage classes PRETTY REGULARLY... probably every fight, if not more often.

 

Haymakers, Pushing, Move-Through, etc.

 

I think weve all gotten a wee bit quick to say 'no, no, bad player, here is your box, STAY INSIDE THE BOX'.

 

On the flipside, I think a player with a 1 charge attack would be more likely to haymaker it. The thought might be 'If I've only got 1 charge, might as well make it count'. I wouldn't rule out haymaker.

[Weldun]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

On the flipside' date=' I think a player with a 1 charge attack would be more likely to haymaker it. The thought might be 'If I've only got 1 charge, might as well make it count'. I wouldn't rule out haymaker.[/quote']Especially if he's got a good read on the target's speed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

My numbers are based on the base 70 STR which gives a base 14" leap.

Assuming that the character spends 1 additional point on leaping OR pushes his leap by 1" he gets +5 damage classes for the maneuver.

 

So the comparison boils down to:

 

14d6 normal damage strike

16 with 10 point push

19 with move through

21 with both

 

vs.

 

3d6 base HKA

6d6k with STR

7d6+1k with 10 point push of the HKA (which allows 55 STR to be added)

7 1/2d6k with move through

9d6k (27 damage classes) with both

 

yes, the totals are comparable

but the killing damage is higher which seems to break the social contract for playing a heroic brick.

[Mr. R]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

Also look at the OP. Nowhere in the description is there a mention of 1 charge or any charge. He's playing a lotto with the Side Effect. But just as he can get lucky with damage rolls, so he can get lucky and roll low for SE, resulting in at least three shots, maybe more.

 

Also remember the SE only goes off if he hits. So he can push every shot till he hits, then he takes to SE. I would totally do this, and I am far from a munchkin/power-gamer. So 21 DC regular or 27 killing.

 

Oh also after some exp. pts we can get: +5 with Energy Transfer Punch.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: High STR + HKAs, thoughts

 

The Force Field is okay. He still has 14 rPD without and I think 8 rED. He also has a 25 BODY' date=' I believe.[/quote']

This is something to bear in mind. If he uses this power and it *doesn't* hit, he's down 22 END. Granted, that might not be much of a penalty, YMMV there.

 

Now, if he *does* hit. Let's say he pushes, Move Throughs, and otherwise pimps this power out so he pulls 9d6 HKA (this, of course, assumes that you don't rule that his maneuvers are considered 'extra DC' for the purpose of the 'only double the power of your KA's' limitation.)

 

9d6 * 3.5 = approximately 31 Body.

 

Stun Lotto: anywhere between x1 and x5 - and remember that x1 is twice as likely as x5. So, half the time he'll manage x2 or less, which is 62 Stun.

 

A severe amount of damage, and one that could potentially lay out even Doctor Destroyer. Assuming that he's the lucky boy who gets the attack.

 

This attack hits... and our One Shot Wonder is stuck for an average of 10 minutes - and actually 5 minutes to 20 minutes (five minutes for each 5 points of drain), without his Force Field or special AP attack.

 

Now, consider the impace of this. While I can't be certain, I have a strong suspicion from the odd choice of 14 rPD that all he's got left without his Force Field are baseline defenses.

 

That means that our Brick marches into battle. Unloads his Megaton Punch. Hits one target and levels him.

 

He is then stuck with defenses so low that lucky standard-issue VIPER agents with blast rifles start dishing out Body. Even if he *has* taken out the big bad, or the enemy brick, everybody *else* with him now rips him a new one.

 

So I'm not too worried that this power makes the character impossible to hurt, particularly since there *are* easy ways to counteract it.

 

How, pray tell? How can anybody withstand an average attack that levels the Ogre and puts the serious hurt on Grond? More importantly, how can you make this attack plink, but let the rest of the team hurt them?

 

Two words. Damage. Reduction.

 

Somebody like Devil Dog, with a limited 75% Resistant Damage Reduction, can take that potential 54 Body 270 Stun attack and strip it down to 13 Body, 68 Stun, even against 0 defenses. If you throw the *average* attack against it - 31 Body, 62 Stun - that's a much more manageable 8 Body, 16 Stun... again, against 0 Defenses.

 

And this guys' now packing minimal defenses while the brick he's plinked off of goes to town.

 

Doctor Destroyer, with his VPP, would be a damned fool if he didn't include an 'energetic dampener' gadget that gives him a 1 charge 75% Resistant Energy Damage Reduction if he was going to be fighting *anybody* with a potent unknown energy wielder, even without having seen him.

 

Even without that sort of trick, the backlash from having him make a mistake against even one tissue paper target (assuming this becomes a regular tactic - I wouldn't pull out this trick unless that was the case) might make him back off of it a bit.

 

Really, the only *reliable* use I can see for this is the "giant monster buster" - a power you can throw up against automatons and other menaces like Shirak the Destroyer, perhaps, to try taking them out. Even then, you don't want to be wrong about whether or not they can withstand your first shot... because you probably won't last long enough to make the second one.

 

I can say that the one thing I'd want to see, as a GM, is *this* power added to the Lockout list. That means he can't just spam massive HKA's until he stops getting lucky and his target reduces him to a fine red paste.