New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

[sindyr]

OK, here is a VERY long essay I wrote trying to nail down Absolute Abilities. Bear with me, as parts of it are somewhat stream of consciousness, but please check it out as I crave constructive feedback to improve this pre-alpha of a system.

 

I) Basic concepts:

Every power or ability is comprised of one or more effects. (Not to be confused with F/X.) Every effect either modifies an existing process (by increasing or decreasing a quantity) or creates a new one.

 

A process is simply one or more triggers and/or conditions that yields a result, either modifying an existing process or initiating a new one.

 

Here’s an example:

 

Invisibility (Choice) yields (no image present for sight awareness process condition)

-and-

Power Defense (Drain, Transfer, or Transform process occurring on character) yields (Subtract Power Defense rating from process that triggered this process, minimum 0)

 

As you can see, the only condition required for the Invisibility process to trigger is the conscious will of the user (Choice), whereas the Power Defense process does not require the conscious will of the user, but only a set of conditions being met, namely that the character has a Drain, Transfer, or Transform process run with him as the Successful Target.

 

Let’s look at a slice of time in a scene with multiple processes interacting. Let’s say that Starblazer is shooting an Energy Blast at The Defender. Here’s the process.

 

Starblazer uses his Energy Blast ability to initiate an attack process. The power can be thought of as:

Energy Blast: (Choice, Aim) yields (10d6 Incoming Energy Damage to Successful Target).

 

Choice and Aim are also processes:

Choice: The character acts, must be conscious.

Aim: (Choice, Target) yields (chance to convert Target into Successful Target)

 

So, in the overall process, Starblazer must choose to use EB as well as choose to target someone or something.

 

Assuming that Starblazer succeeds in hitting the target (the Defender), and that the Defender has an Energy Defense of 20, the processes would continue automatically:

 

10d6 resolves to 25. This is not a process, as it occurs outside of the game reality, it is therefore a “mechanic”. However, this mechanic provides to the EB process a random damage amount from 6-60.

 

The Defender’s Energy Defense ability’s process might look like this:

Energy Defense: (Incoming Energy Damage on Owner) yields (Incoming Energy Damage minus 20, minimum 0)

 

Well, Energy Blast as its result invokes a Damage process, with a value of 25 damage, on the Defender. So the Energy Blast process ends and a new Damage process begins that is modified by the Energy Defense process, and so on.

 

In this chain of processes, abilities have triggered that create new processes or modify ones already in process. Hopefully the above illustrates this theory in depth.

 

What’s the point of all this? To be clear and precise about what is really going on behind the scenes as we delve into a controversial and challenging topic: Absolute Abilities.

 

II) Absolute Abilities:

 

An Absolute Ability is one that does one or more of the following: modifies values in a process to zero or any other amount, including infinity; prevents one or more processes from proceeding; contains one or more processes that cannot be prevented from proceeding; or takes a process that would not or might not occur and makes it happen for certain.

 

For example, a brick can purchase high defensive value with abilities like Armor or ED/PD, but any incoming damage of high enough value would still get through. An Absolute Ability of Invulnerability could however reduce the incoming damage to zero, regardless of its value.

 

Or a cowboy may have a very high OCV, but may still run into someone with an even higher DCV, to the point where it becomes very unlikely the cowboy can hit them. However, an Absolute Ability of Marksmanship could initiate the damage process bypassing the need for a to-hit check.

 

A super self-healer may have awesome regenerative abilities, but those processes do not engage when the character has died. An Absolute Ability of Regeneration can initiate the regeneration process even when the character is dead.

 

A teleporter may be able to teleport around the world, but not into a secret lab with a Hardened Force Field around it. However, an Absolute Ability of Teleportation(penetration) cannot be prevented, no matter how many times Hardened is purchased.

 

Finally, a blade can be very sharp, but there will always be something too tough for it to cut. If the blade has an Absolute Ability of Sharpness, however, its rating is infinitely high and can therefore cut anything.

 

So we can see that while the Hero System will permit us to have strong defenses, penetrating teleportations, high marksmanship skill, amazing regenerations, and ultrasharp blades, it always does so within limits, there being no overarching way (that I can find) to remove these limits for a fixed cost. For those who want a character with ultimate abilities, the Absolute Ability is how this can be added to Hero System.

 

But how do we quantify this new option?

 

III) Base effect and Absolute effect

 

First we name the base effect – what does the power do? In naming the base effect, we note any variables. Then finally, we identify what pieces we wish to make Absolute – are we influencing values in a way the system doesn’t normally permit, reducing them to zero, increasing them without limit, or simply setting a number we ordinarily couldn’t? Are we causing a new process to trigger for certain that either only had a possibility, or was impossible? Or preventing another process from resolving? Or are we preventing the base effect or a process from being modified or halted?

 

Let’s take each of the above five examples – the Brick, the Cowboy, the Healer, the Blade, and the Teleporter.

 

The Brick wants Absolute Ability of Invulnerability – no damage from any source. This means that damage numbers are reduced to zero, regardless of what they were before.

 

Alternatively, the Brick might want an expanded version of the Absolute Ability of Invulnerability – no harm from any source – which can include damage, but also sickness, environmental effects, etc. In this version, it’s not about reducing numbers to zero, but preventing processes from being able to resolve. For example, a gas is released that causes a small amount of damage and makes people choke. With the first version of this power, the damage the Brick would take is reduced to zero, with the second version, all processes that harm the brick are prevented from resolving – therefore neither the damage process nor the choking process resolve and he suffers neither effect.

 

Now, the Cowboy wants Absolute Markmanship – the ability to hit anything he can reach, without any chance of failure. (Note: this does not prevent the Cowboy from failing to reach the target due to range or other factors, and it does not guarantee that upon reaching the target the projectile will deliver any particular level of damage, just that if the target can be reached, it will be hit successfully.) This Absolute Ability interrupts and halts the Aim process, trumping it and yielding a Successful Target. OCV and DCV don’t factor into it anymore.

 

The Healer has amazing regenerative powers, but being dead, he cannot use his powers. The Absolute Ability of Regeneration simply removes the triggering conditions “being alive” in order for the power to work. As the Regeneration process now has no triggering conditions apart from being at less than full health, it will trigger even when dead.

 

The Blade is a power designed by its wielder, the Samurai. When he goes to slice through something, a process is run comparing the Blade’s rating to that of the material it is trying to cut through. In this case, an Absolute Ability of Sharpness gives the Blade an infinitely high rating, allowing it to cut effortlessly through any material.

 

Finally the Teleporter would normally be stopped by the Hardened Force Field. However, with the Absolute Ability of Teleportation(penetration) any processes that would prevent the arrival of the Teleporter at his intended destination are preventing themselves from resolving.

 

Teleportation brings up another interesting option – there is more than one Absolute that can be applied! Teleportation usually has a range within which its user can go – it is also possible to have an Absolute Ability of Teleportation(range) that simply sets that potential value to an number the use chooses. Therefore under this Absolute, the user can access *any* range without limit.

 

So now we know what Absolutes can do, and even how they do it, the ultimate question is how do players buy them, what do they get, and for what cost in character points?

 

IV) In Practice: Builds and Points

 

All of the above is theory, and as such, is probably not going to break the system. However, everything below is implementation, and has a great chance for breaking the system if I don’t do it right. And being human and a relative Hero System newbie, I probably will need to shape and edit this many times, so please read the rest of this as a work in progress that I will edit in the light of the constructive criticism you bring to bear.

 

Of course, what I need to know most is if my numbers are off or if the system has a flaw, hole, or exploit. Anyways, here goes:

 

1. The starting point cost for an Absolute Ability is 50 points.

2. The ability must be defined in terms of its general effect.

3. If that effect has limitations (such as scope, effect, etc), the limitations must be approved by the GM.

4. Then the way(s) in which the ability is Absolute must be defined.

5. Each way the ability is absolute must be assigned an advantage rating from +1/2 to +1 ½.

6. Then the costs are computed and paid for.

 

Examples: The Brick.

1. 50 points starting cost.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to reduce any damage.

3. No limitations. (If this only worked while in sunlight, however, perhaps a -1 would have been assigned)

4. The Ability is Absolute by reducing all damage values to zero.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1/2.

6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all damage.

 

Or, maybe the Brick chooses a different version of the power:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all physical harm.

3. No limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with physically harmful results from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1

6. 50 x (1+ 1) = 100 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all physically harmful effects.

 

Finally, someone who wanted to make a character who couldn’t be affected by any affects at all without the permission of the character:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all adversarial affect of any kinds, including physical, mental, supernatural, etc.

3. No limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with adversarial results from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1 ½

6. 50 x (1+ 1 ½) = 150 points for Absolute Inviolability from all adversarial effects.

 

Note that all of the above assume the domain of applicability is the character. If a bomb explodes, the above abilities do not prevent the bomb from spawning processes on the other characters.

 

Now let’s try the teleporter that can teleport anywhere within range, regardless of barriers:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is to move the character from his current location to another chosen location.

3. No special limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would interfere with arriving at the destination from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½

6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for Absolute Penetration while teleporting.

 

Note that this ability does not grant the ability to teleport – one must still purchase the teleport power, paying for whatever effects (such as range) that one wishes to.

 

On the other hand, one could have *two* Absolute effects on this Absolute Ability:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is to move the character and from his current location to another chosen location.

3. No special limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would interfere with arriving at the destination from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½

6. The Ability has a second Absolute Aspect: this process will place the character to a chosen location anywhere in any place he can imagine or conceive of that exists without limit.

7. The GM rates the scope and nature of this at the maximum, perhaps at a +1½

8. 50 x (1+ ½ + 1½) = 150 points for Absolute Penetration while teleporting Any real place Imaginable.

 

Wow! This is a pretty hefty TP mod – it can’t be stopped, and it will take him anywhere – any dimension, any world, any place that has any kind of “location” attribute. He can even teleport himself to the missing child, without knowing where he is, or to the car this paint fleck came from – even the nearest place to buy a beer. (Or the second nearest.)

 

Obviously, although the player still has to buy the base teleportation power, he doesn’t need to buy any Armor Piercing or Range advantages for it – that’s what the 150 points paid for. He may want to buy some increased mass however, if he wants to take other people or things.

 

This whole idea should of course have a big Stop sign on it – the GM needs to oversee these things closely. Of course, many powers, such as VPPs or Desolid need equal oversight.

 

There is one matter that is left that needs to be addressed: What happens if the immovable object is struck by the unstoppable force? What happens if two Absolute Abilities collide?

 

V) Absolute versus Absolute

 

First of all, it is quite possible, even likely that the two Absolute Abilities are not actually in conflict. For example, perhaps an Absolute Energy Blast can do any damage including Infinite, and it hits the Brick version #2 above. Brick #2 simply prevents damage dealing processes from resolving, so the Absolute Blaster does indeed hit the Absolute Brick with Infinite damage, but since the Brick never gets to take it because the damage process fizzles, the amount of damage is irrelevant.

 

What if we are talking Brick version #1, who only reduces damage to zero? Still there is no problem, because the Blaster’s Absolute Ability goes before the Brick’s Absolute Ability, since the Blaster’s Absolute Ability occurs during the damage generation process and the Brick’s Absolute Ability occurs in the damage resolution process. So in this case, the Blaster does shoot the Brick with Infinite Damage, but then as the Brick is resolving, the Brick reduces to zero.

 

It’s only when two Absolute Abilities are trying to do different things at the same point in the process that we have a problem.

 

For example, perhaps Energy Blaster defined his power thusly:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is to cause damage to a target.

3. No special limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would reduce or eliminate the amount of damage taken by the target by the EB.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½

6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for an Absolute Energy Blast that cannot be reduced or soaked.

 

(Note the Energy Blast itself still has to be bought and paid for.)

 

With *this* Absolute, we do have conflict between two absolutes. However, through careful attention to the language and timing, we can see that this process targets other processes “that reduce or eliminates the amount of damage taken”. Since the Brick’s Absolute Ability does just that, the Brick’s Absolute Ability process itself is prevented by the Energy Blaster’s Absolute Ability. The Brick’s Absolute Ability however only affects “all processes with physically harmful results from resolving.” And the EB’s Absolute Ability has no “physically harmful results” except indirectly. Therefore the EB’s Absolute Ability is able to prevent the Brick’s Absolute Ability from resolving, while the reverse is not true.

 

What if we were talking about Brick #3 who’s Absolute Ability is “preventing all processes with adversarial results from resolving.”?

 

This trumps the EB Absolute Ability, which is clearly about causing “adversarial results”.

 

All in all, it’s always a judgment call, but as you can see from the above examples, most of the Absolute versus Absolute can be judged on its own merits, and when examined the outcome is clear. In the rare cases where one Absolute is exactly equal and opposite another Absolute, with both activating and coming into to play at exactly the same time and step, allow the absolute that causes less change (and is probably more defensive) to take precedence. However, I cannot imagine such a case ever arising.

 

VI) Conclusion

 

That is it. This is my first stab and including Absolute Abilities for the Hero System. If we take for granted for the remainder of the thread that the goal is to be achieved, what tweaks to this suggested system would better achieve it? Are the costs low enough that players could access the Absolute Ability system if they really want to, but high enough to make them pay what it’s worth? Would anything here break the system and/or make the game unplayable?

 

Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

1) I think you've severely overcomplicated the process.

 

2) Hero doesn't play well with Absolutes. As Absolutes for a Fixed Cost do not scale well, and one of Her's strengths is that is scale very well currently.

 

3) I stopped at Invulnerability, as several years of discussion have placed this at somewhere between 120 and 300 points or so. Also called 100% Damage Reduction in past threads (as an extrapolation of the Damage Reduction Power, purchased for PD, ED, etc separately).

 

I think even just your basis for this is off, to be blunt about it.

[Maelstrom]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

You seem to be using a lot of arbitrary terms:

 

This Absolute Ability interrupts and halts the Aim process, trumping it and yielding a Successful Target. OCV and DCV don’t factor into it anymore.

 

The Aim process? A Successful Target? Trumping?

 

If I understand exactly what you mean, you don't need absolute anything to do this. Just buy No Range Mod, gain initiative, and define your attack to happen just as your opponent aims. Lot less expensive. I think you're working too hard to come up with a solution to a problem no one actually has.

 

Besides, absolutes are boring. If your target is invulnerable: no tension, no drama.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Besides' date=' absolutes are boring. If your target is invulnerable: no tension, no drama.[/quote']

 

If all drama is about is, whether character A rolled high enough to make it through character B's defenses, then yeah, I can see how that would be boring.

 

If you can't see the drama in, for instance, a character who can always and reliably kill with a touch, then we may as well be speaking different languages.

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Rather than a flat point cost perhaps a percentage of total points for an "Absolute" ability to help maintain a sense of balance.

 

50% of your points grants you an "Absolute" ability, You must spend every 2nd experience point to maintain the ability. (Percentages could vary for less effective absolutes).

 

Pretty sure that won't really work either but seems like it has a better chance to appear balanced to other players than a straight point cost.

[Markdoc]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

If you can't see the drama in' date=' for instance, a character who can always and reliably kill with a touch, then we may as well be speaking different languages.[/quote']

 

It could make reasonable drama in fiction. It might even be workable for a solo game. For a continuing game, with other players, however, it sounds like an astoundingingly lame idea. It's important not to confuse fiction and games. They have different, though occasionally overlapping goals and different ground rules.

 

I get the impression from what I read of your posts on this subject is that you like the idea of absolute effects, (and perhaps are interested in rules for it) but don't much care about the rules process, or the effect on actual games. I'm interested primarily in how absolutes would affect most games, secondarily on the effect on the rules process (ie: how a given rule interacts with other rules: what happens when you add "usable by others" to invulnerability, etc) and really couldn't care less about the concept of "absolute effects".

 

In that regard, we really are talking different languages.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

If all drama is about is, whether character A rolled high enough to make it through character B's defenses, then yeah, I can see how that would be boring.

 

If you can't see the drama in, for instance, a character who can always and reliably kill with a touch, then we may as well be speaking different languages.

 

I'll agree it probably can make for great drama.

 

But it can also lead to absolutely lousy gaming.

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I must be honest, I am disappointed in the responses. Very disappointed. They range from attacking the goals, to those who didn't read the whole thing (which is understandable, its long, but why reply if you don't read the entire thing?), to people attacking the solution without making any suggestions for how to accomplish the goals.

 

Not a single helpful reply. I guess I will have to chalk that up to the principle of self-selection - that Hero System has always lacked Absolute Abilities, and that it's core audience are those who must be strongly anti-Absolute. Perhaps this is the equivalent to discussing evolution in a church.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am just stunned. I was expecting to be taken down a peg or two, and that one of the Hero System vets would probably come up with a simpler system to handle the addition of Absolute Attributes, but no one did.

 

Oh well. Maybe some day down the line, if I keep checking, someone will post a helpful *constructive* response and help me figure out how to add this capacity to the game. Even if that doesn't happen, maybe other people wanting the same kind of super hero options will take something functional from my post. At the very least, I have had the opportunity to work things out for my group.

 

I suppose I am a firm believer in two guiding principles:

 

1) With a *real* toolkit system, a player can come to a GM and say "How do I build this power" and the GM's response will never be "You can't."

2) With 500+ points, a player ought to be able to purchase just about any power he can come up with.

 

If a player comes to the GM saying "I want to be able to TP anywhere, and never be blocked no matter what" there should be at the very least a way to give the player a trumping ability. He should not have ONLY the option of buying Armor Piercing multiple times, and hoping he never runs into a barrier that has been Hardened one more time than that.

 

That's just one example. I am sure I can come up with examples without end of ways in which a player could ask for a power that either the current Hero System wouldn't be able to make, or would cost many more points that a player could afford even with 500 points.

 

You can tell such a player "You don't get to play that character.", but *I* do not want that to be my response. If a player is interested in a certain power working a certain way, that's a challenge to the *GM* to make it happen - and price it accordingly, but NOT ridiculously.

 

I can't imagine GMing any other way.

 

I will check back again to see if any helpful replies have been posted. Perhaps now that I have been made to feel like a heretic, I will have more realistic expectations of that happening.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I'll agree it probably can make for great drama.

 

But it can also lead to absolutely lousy gaming.

That's my thought as well. Even the version of Invulnerability I proposed 3 years ago had deliberate weaknesses to preserve game balance.

 

As a more theoretical criticism of Absolute Abilities, I think the idea wasn't thought all the way through. If these existed in-game, many Hero - particularly Champions - combats would become unresolvable. The Unhurtable vs the Always Kills. The Infinity Fast vs the Can Catch Anyone. The Never Misses vs the Never Gets Hit. The Irresistible Force vs the Immovable Object.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Not a single helpful reply. I guess I will have to chalk that up to the principle of self-selection - that Hero System has always lacked Absolute Abilities' date=' and that it's core audience are those who must be strongly anti-Absolute. Perhaps this is the equivalent to discussing evolution in a church.[/quote']I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that this idea of Absolutes has been discussed around here before more than once and generally rejected because it doesn't add anything to the role-playing aspects of the game? It might work in the abstract if Hero were a tactical wargame, but it's not; it's a role-playing game.

 

You're not discussing "evolution in a church." (Not to mention that most Christians I know believe in evolution.) You come in here with no track record (or apparent Hero experience) whatsoever and drop an idea for an extremely radical change to a well proven and successful system and wonder why you're not seeing a lot of enthusiasm? Maybe it's because those of us who've played this game for any length of time - many people here have been playing Hero for 20+ years - understand the severe problems your idea would create without having to dissect it in detail.

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

That's my thought as well. Even the version of Invulnerability I proposed 3 years ago had deliberate weaknesses to preserve game balance.

 

As a more theoretical criticism of Absolute Abilities, I think the idea wasn't thought all the way through. If these existed in-game, many Hero - particularly Champions - combats would become unresolvable. The Unhurtable vs the Always Kills. The Infinity Fast vs the Can Catch Anyone. The Never Misses vs the Never Gets Hit. The Irresistible Force vs the Immovable Object.

 

I addressed this directly in a section of my initial post. To summarize - well-defined Absolutes very rarely truly conflict... and the catch-all is that if it ever truly happens, the defensive one wins.

 

Furthermore, everyone should understand that I am proposing an option, NOT saying that every character should use them. I imagine that most characters do not partake of Absolute Attributes. Therefor there simply isn't a lot of chance that two exactly opposed Absolutes will come into conflict. But in the extremely unlikely event that it occurs, it's covered.

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that this idea of Absolutes has been discussed around here before more than once and generally rejected because it doesn't add anything to the role-playing aspects of the game? It might work in the abstract if Hero were a tactical wargame' date=' but it's not; it's a role-playing game.[/quote']

 

I think you have that backwards - it's *because* it's an RPG not a wargame that we can explore a wider range of options without breaking the game. Having well-defined absolutes does not break the game - it can't. A poor *implementation* of absolutes can be game-breaking, but simply adding the option to the game can't be. Do you see the difference?

 

You're not discussing "evolution in a church." (Not to mention that most Christians I know believe in evolution.) You come in here with no track record (or apparent Hero experience) whatsoever and drop an idea for an extremely radical change to a well proven and successful system and wonder why you're not seeing a lot of enthusiasm? Maybe it's because those of us who've played this game for any length of time - many people here have been playing Hero for 20+ years - understand the severe problems your idea would create without having to dissect it in detail.

 

1) I have plenty of track record, just none here. What do you expect me to do about that?

 

2) I am not sure calling it a "change" is accurate - after all, I am not changing the existing rules, but adding a new system. Perhaps "add-on" or "house-rule" is more accurate, after all, I wasn't suggesting that 6th Ed add this as canon.

 

3) I wasn't wondering why people were not enthusiastic. I was noting that everyone sees to be having extremely knee-jerk reactions as if I broke into their house and killed their dog. That's a very *different* reaction than "not seeing a lot of enthusiasm".

 

4) And while I said I was disappointed, I didn't say I didn't understand why. Upon reflection, the group here is here *because* they believe in the core truths of the system, and one of those truths is "no absolutes" - I guess I shouldn't have been surprised at the resulting responses to an idea that asks how to best bring absolutes to the table.

 

5) It *is* a well-proven and successful system, but I can see from all the posts here on these forums that few people here believe the game is complete and as good as it can possibly be. I am not the only one exploring house rules and add-ons, mine just happen to be the most heretical.

 

6) "Understanding the severe problems" in theory could equate to many mental mistakes in practice, such as:

-Misunderstanding the goal

-Incorrectly thinking that if one implementation of the goal is flawed, that all possible implementations of the goal must also be flawed

-Missing the potential fact that a problem seen has already been potentially addressed and solved (like one absolute vs another)

-Understanding the goal, but confusing and conflating not liking a game with absolutes with the idea that such a game is broken and would not work.

 

As far as I can see, no criticisms have been offered to demonstrate conclusively that the goal itself, regardless of the implementation, is incompatible with either gaming as a whole or Hero System specifically.

 

And in fact, no criticisms have even been offered demonstrating that my particular implementation is flawed.

 

Really, the only things being said here boil down to:

-Wow that's really complicated (a valid statement, and somewhat helpful, although suggestions at accomplishing the overall goal with less complexity would be even better.)

-Absolutes Bad! Hulk smash!

 

That's entirely human to have such an emotional reaction, I just wasn't prepared for it.

 

Oh, and:

 

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that this idea of Absolutes has been discussed around here before more than once and generally rejected because it doesn't add anything to the role-playing aspects of the game?

 

This is not worthy of the person who wrote this. Who writes a 5 hour essay on a subject if it doesn't add anything? Not me.

 

It may not add anything *you like* - and that's fine, but saying it doesn't add anything at ALL is no different than saying I have no right to want something different from playing and running Hero System than you do.

 

And that's not worthy of *you*. I strongly feel you can do better and are better than that statement.

 

Don't prove me wrong.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

.. and the catch-all is that if it ever truly happens' date=' the defensive one wins.[/quote']Then it's not really an Absolute, is it? So what's the point of this exercise again?

 

This idea would be better addressed as schtick: Character A's schtick is that he's the fastest, so no one gets to be faster. Character B's schtick is that she's the toughest; so no other (non-)player character has as good defenses. That way it scales to each campaign and genre individually and it doesn't require inordinately complicated rules but rather cooperation between players and GM. Sounds like win-win to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I addressed this directly in a section of my initial post. To summarize - well-defined Absolutes very rarely truly conflict... and the catch-all is that if it ever truly happens, the defensive one wins.

 

Furthermore, everyone should understand that I am proposing an option, NOT saying that every character should use them. I imagine that most characters do not partake of Absolute Attributes. Therefor there simply isn't a lot of chance that two exactly opposed Absolutes will come into conflict. But in the extremely unlikely event that it occurs, it's covered.

 

I call Shenanigans. They will often conflict. And if the defensive one always wins, then the offensive one is no longer absolute. To see the conflicts, see below (using your own examples).

 

The primary reason Absolutes work poorly in Hero is that they don't scale at all. If we price Absolute Invulnerability to physical force, for example, at 120 points, no one in a game where character points total 150 or less can practically afford it, it's a huge point sink in games at 350 points, and everyone buys it in a game set around 1,000 points. It's either prohibitively expensive or mandatory to be competitive, depending on your point level.

 

Fantasy Hero has a fine structure for Absolutes. Buy enough of the ability that, given the structure of this game, it results in impossible, or near-impossible (must have a roll less than 3, or more than 18, for it to fail). Agree between GM and Player that this is now an "absolute". You bought enough defenses that no sword can inflict damage on you, based on the game world in question capping sword damage at 4d6 KA (so you have, say, 24 rPD and 120 PD, much of it only vs swords). You are invulnerable to swords. If someone with a 6d6 sword attack comes along, tough luck - this was agreed to be "invulnerable to swords".

 

An Absolute Ability is one that does one or more of the following: modifies values in a process to zero or any other amount, including infinity; prevents one or more processes from proceeding; contains one or more processes that cannot be prevented from proceeding; or takes a process that would not or might not occur and makes it happen for certain.

 

For example, a brick can purchase high defensive value with abilities like Armor or ED/PD, but any incoming damage of high enough value would still get through. An Absolute Ability of Invulnerability could however reduce the incoming damage to zero, regardless of its value.

 

An "attack always hurts", "attack always KO's" or "attack always kills" power is a conflicting absolute. You want an unhurtable character. I want an unstoppable attack. One of us will be unhappy.

 

Or a cowboy may have a very high OCV' date=' but may still run into someone with an even higher DCV, to the point where it becomes very unlikely the cowboy can hit them. However, an Absolute Ability of Marksmanship could initiate the damage process bypassing the need for a to-hit check.[/quote']

 

That Indian with Absolute Dodge can't be hit, though. What happened to Cowboy's Absolute Marksmanship that never misses?

 

A super self-healer may have awesome regenerative abilities' date=' but those processes do not engage when the character has died. An Absolute Ability of Regeneration can initiate the regeneration process even when the character is dead.[/quote']

 

My Avatar of Death kills anyone dead - no ability to recover. Which Absolute prevails? Presumably, Death has no Sting, since Regen is the more defensive ability.

 

A teleporter may be able to teleport around the world' date=' but not into a secret lab with a Hardened Force Field around it. However, an Absolute Ability of Teleportation(penetration) cannot be prevented, no matter how many times Hardened is purchased.[/quote']

 

Unless the defender has an Absolutely Impenetrable Force Wall, of course.

 

Finally' date=' a blade can be very sharp, but there will always be something too tough for it to cut. If the blade has an Absolute Ability of Sharpness, however, its rating is infinitely high and can therefore cut anything.[/quote']

 

Well, almost anything. It can't cut this guy:

 

For example' date=' a brick can purchase high defensive value with abilities like Armor or ED/PD, but any incoming damage of high enough value would still get through. An Absolute Ability of Invulnerability could however reduce the incoming damage to zero, regardless of its value.[/quote']

 

Even your own examples include a conflict of absolutes...maybe that indicates they are more common than you think.

 

Of course, what I need to know most is if my numbers are off or if the system has a flaw, hole, or exploit. Anyways, here goes:

 

1. The starting point cost for an Absolute Ability is 50 points.

2. The ability must be defined in terms of its general effect.

3. If that effect has limitations (such as scope, effect, etc), the limitations must be approved by the GM.

4. Then the way(s) in which the ability is Absolute must be defined.

5. Each way the ability is absolute must be assigned an advantage rating from +1/2 to +1 ½.

6. Then the costs are computed and paid for.

 

Examples: The Brick.

1. 50 points starting cost.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to reduce any damage.

3. No limitations. (If this only worked while in sunlight, however, perhaps a -1 would have been assigned)

4. The Ability is Absolute by reducing all damage values to zero.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1/2.

6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all damage.

 

Not bad...instead of paying 120 points for 3/4 Damage Reduction from physical and energy attacks (itself an absolute which has some issues), he paid 75 points for absolute immunity. Now he doesn't need a high CON, since his need for REC is reduced, and his need for STUN and CON itself eliminated, so he pays some of the 75 point cost by taking lower CON and more by selling back STUN from his STR. And he doesn't have to buy up his defenses either.

 

Or, maybe the Brick chooses a different version of the power:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all physical harm.

3. No limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with physically harmful results from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1

6. 50 x (1+ 1) = 100 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all physically harmful effects.

 

May as well buy this - for only 25 points more, I get unlimited Flash, Power and Mental defense. Still way cheaper than Damage reduction.

 

Finally, someone who wanted to make a character who couldn’t be affected by any affects at all without the permission of the character:

1. 50 points.

2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all adversarial affect of any kinds, including physical, mental, supernatural, etc.

3. No limitations.

4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with adversarial results from resolving.

5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1 ½

6. 50 x (1+ 1 ½) = 150 points for Absolute Inviolability from all adversarial effects.

 

Note that all of the above assume the domain of applicability is the character. If a bomb explodes, the above abilities do not prevent the bomb from spawning processes on the other characters.

 

Better get the 150 point version. That way, I can't be mind controlled to attack my teammates or affected by a PRE attack. I can sell back EGO and PRE to pay part of the extra freight. I don't need DEX, really - DCV is irrelevant so I can get by on HTH levels with the -1/2 "can't be used for DCV" limitation.

 

For 150 points, this is pretty much impossible in a 150 point or 200 point character game. But if we bump the points to 350, this is a pretty good deal - I need buy no other defensive abilities at all. Move to a 750 - 1,000 point Galactic Champions game and anyone WITHOUT this ability probably pays more than 150 to have game-normal defenses, so this is a no brainer.

 

I'm not going through all the other examples - they will either be vastly overpriced, or vastly underpriced, or both depending on the game they apply to.

 

As Treb says, there is a reason this proposal is not getting a warm reception from experienced Hero gamers. Note that we think posting your idea on the Hero web site is an invitation for us to criticize it if we consider it problematic. I also think your defensiveness when it is suggested this is not a good idea indicates you didn't really want the idea criticized. If you still consider it workable, implement it in your game and see how it flies. Let us know the results of your playtest.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Who writes a 5 hour essay on a subject if it doesn't add anything?

Obviously you've never read any Karl Marx.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

VI)Conclusion

 

That is it. This is my first stab and including Absolute Abilities for the Hero System. If we take for granted for the remainder of the thread that the goal is to be achieved, what tweaks to this suggested system would better achieve it? Are the costs low enough that players could access the Absolute Ability system if they really want to, but high enough to make them pay what it’s worth? Would anything here break the system and/or make the game unplayable?

 

Thanks!

 

Sindyr

 

It is difficult to suggest radical changes to the basis of the game when you have a reputation here, it is almost impossible to have such a radical change considered when you are new and you don't reference the current accepted way of achieving in-game absolute abilities if not in-system absolutes.

 

You have had a pretty rough first few posts but the people you are talking to have had this argument quite a few times and the temptation is to jump immediately to the position you have developed over the past arguments. Have you looked round the boards for previous examples? If nothing else it would have prepared you for the very arguments you are getting now.

 

The accepted way to have absolutes in HERO is for the referee to indicate the top level attack or defence that he will allow in the game and then cost what an appropriate counter to that would cost. THAT is the cost of your absolute power - it is absolute (in that game, at that power level) for an appropriate cost to the game. It is as simple as you can get and remains true to the system.

 

If you, as GM agree to competing absolutes then you can decide what happens. Personally I would not allow more than one person at a time to have any absolute or its counter and heroes compete over them...

 

Doc

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

In Defense of (some) Complexity

 

First of all, I should note how ironic it feels to be writing this on a Hero System forum, while it is the general impression of many gamers that the Hero System itself is far too complex. Obviously, I do not agree.

 

I am going to make no bones that this post continues in the same vein as the original post, namely, that while absolutes are not for every game, there is nothing inherently wrong, bad, or broken about allowing them with the proper implementation. My approach continues to be, if a player asks me how to build a teleport power that can’t be blocked, telling him that he either can’t afford it or that worse it’s not permitted is the wrong way to GM.

 

Someone noted that my implementation of an absolute add-on system to Hero System was complicated. I thought I should explain *why* I chose this system over a more simple one.

 

Please also note that the goal is a system whereby any given aspect of a power may be made absolute. This can mean one or more of the following:

· The power cannot be blocked, or prevented from accomplishing its results.

· The power can cause a value, such as damage or movement, to take any desired value, from zero to infinity, and anywhere in between.

· The power takes an uncertain or impossible act and makes it certain.

· The power prevents named effects from taking place.

 

While it may be possible to come up with individual solutions for each desired absolute aspect, the goal here is a unified *system* within which all those requests can be priced and filled. In other words, I am not trying to come up with a way to solve “unbroken teleports” or “invulnerability”, instead I am trying to come up with an complete add-on system for Hero System that does all that and more.

 

Now on to the main matter at hand – why did I design such a complex system?

 

There are, as far as I know, only three ways to pay for and receive extra ability in Champions: Flat cost, Adders, and Advantages. Flat cost is like purchasing a base talent or power – you pay your points, and you get basic teleport. Adders are improvements to specific powers that also have a flat cost that adds to that power’s base cost. Advantages are improvements to specific powers that multiply the base cost by a value which is greater for greater enhancements.

 

The first think I considered was having an Absolute Aspect advantage. Take Blink, the teleporter, for example. If the player wants to create a teleport power that cannot be blocked by Force Fields, no matter how many times Hardened is applied to it, the player is effectively requesting an Absolute Aspect of penetration for his Teleport power. The player may also want unlimited range throughout the universe, asking for the Range value to be unlimited. This player effectively wants *two* absolutes on this one power.

 

If I created an Advantage “Absolute Aspect” that gave a single Absolute aspect to the power, I would have to assign a value to it. Let’s say that the “Absolute Aspect” Advantage is assigned a value from +½ to +2, based on the GM’s judgment on how extreme and how wide the scope was.

 

Base teleport costs 2 character points for every 1” of range. Even if both Absolute Advantage Aspects cost +2 each (and the obligatory Safe Blind Teleport, +¼, Blink would be able to purchase Base Teleportation with 2 character points, +4.25 advatanges = 2 x 5.25 = 11 character points for a power that can teleport any range, without the possibility of being blocked.

 

*This* in my opinion, *is* broken.

 

The problem with using Advantages for this purpose is that when one is seeking Absolutes one doesn’t need to put extra points into the base cost, and one reaps a far too beneficial cost as a result.

 

Another option would be an “Absolute Aspect” Adder. The problem with this is that different powers have different base costs. A +25 point Adder for a moderate scope “Absolute Aspect” may make sense for one power, but be completely overpriced for a power that is far cheaper. And because Adders are added in before applying Advantages and Disadvantages, it permits two problems to occur: it permits Advantages to blow up the price to the point it can’t be afforded by anyone, and it permits Disadvantages to lower the costs of such an absolute power to be again, far cheaper than it should be.

 

There is another reason, I think, why neither Advantages nor Adders are suitable as the way to systematize Absolutes. Those need to be applied to a base power, but some potentially requested Absolutes may not have a base power. For example, a player may want the Absolute Ability to ignore harm and adversarial affects. This is not really provided even in part by any power. Therefore, an Advantage or Adder wouldn’t suit this.

 

(I know the above request is a big one, and it would come with a big price, but please do not get sidetracked by that, the point is that Adders and Advantages cannot handle all Absolutes if said Absolute is not based on a power.)

 

This is why I settled on having Absolute Abilities on being a flat cost, purchased as a power. However, I figured that different Absolutes would have different scopes, and should cost different amounts. A character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by Fire should not pay as much for that as a character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by *any* energy attacks. So although there is a flat 50 point cost to having an Absolute Ability, that is multiplied by the Advantage of its scope for its Active cost. And of course, some Absolute Abilities could have more than one Aspect which is Absolute (like penetration and range, from Blink’s Absolute Teleport power), and each Advantage would apply.

 

So I did come up with the best overall method I could think of to handle all potential Absolute Abilities. But if anyone can think of a simpler system that accomplishes the goals of this system equally well, I am excited to hear it.

 

Thanks.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

But if anyone can think of a simpler system that accomplishes the goals of this system equally well' date=' I am excited to hear it.[/quote']

 

Did you read my post?

 

Doc

[jtelson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

The accepted way to have absolutes in HERO is for the referee to indicate the top level attack or defence that he will allow in the game and then cost what an appropriate counter to that would cost. THAT is the cost of your absolute power - it is absolute (in that game, at that power level) for an appropriate cost to the game. It is as simple as you can get and remains true to the system.

 

If you, as GM agree to competing absolutes then you can decide what happens. Personally I would not allow more than one person at a time to have any absolute or its counter and heroes compete over them...

 

Doc

 

Hmm, so if the OCV/DCV cap of the campaign is 13 and the GM allows himself a 2 point edge for 'special cases' then an OCV of 22 would always hit on an 18 or less, the call then the Absolute version a 25 OCV, reversing it a 22 DCV would only be hit on a 3 with the highest Villian OCV (15) so call a 25 DCV. Allow the players to purchase these absolutes higher if they wish (maybe up to +5 or 30 in this example) but they only need to roll if 2 'absolutes' collide.

 

Marksman: I aways hit!

Avoiditron: I'm never hit!

GM: Looks like Marksman finally need to roll.

Avoiditron: I dodge?

 

It only requires a minor house rule of not needing to roll when you've overwhelming advantage. That seems better than my % of points idea from earlier. Although % does answer the 'I don't have enough points/I have so many points issues'

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

First of all' date=' I should note how ironic it feels to be writing this on a Hero System forum, while it is the general impression of many gamers that the Hero System itself is far too complex. Obviously, I do not agree.[/quote']

 

I don't believe the majority of posts replying to you are primarily concerned about the complexity of your proposal.

 

I am going to make no bones that this post continues in the same vein as the original post' date=' namely, that while absolutes are not for every game, there is nothing inherently wrong, bad, or broken about allowing them with the proper implementation. My approach continues to be, if a player asks me how to build a teleport power that can’t be blocked, telling him that he either can’t afford it or that worse it’s not permitted is the wrong way to GM.[/quote']

 

The answer is to tell him "If you purchase X levels of AP on your Teleport power, then this will penetrate the maximum levels of Hardened I will permit in this game. As such, I will guarantee that Teleport cannot, under any circumstances, be blocked in this game."

 

Now let me pose a counter-question. You have now allowed the unblockable teleport. Player B wants to be able to Block it. Presumably, telling him that he either can’t afford it or that worse it’s not permitted is still the wrong way to GM. So what's your answer to Player B, remembering that Player A must have his unblockable teleport? One of the two cannot have what he wants.

 

I see nothing wrong with telling a player either he can't afford something or is not permitted to have something. If we're playing a 25 + 25 low Fantasy game and you want to know how to have a character with a 6d6 Explosive KA Fireball, you can't afford it. It isn't in the games parameters. If you want to know how to have a Vulcan starship commander, my answer is that it's not permitted - that's not in the context of this game.

 

At the extreme, someone may want a character who "always wins in combat". That's an absolute. Is it a character that we want in our games? Likely not, so my answer is "No, you can't afford it and even if you could it would not be permitted." If I'm OK with it being in this game, then we work up a construct, and a cost, that makes it do-able.

 

Base teleport costs 2 character points for every 1” of range. Even if both Absolute Advantage Aspects cost +2 each (and the obligatory Safe Blind Teleport, +¼, Blink would be able to purchase Base Teleportation with 2 character points, +4.25 advatanges = 2 x 5.25 = 11 character points for a power that can teleport any range, without the possibility of being blocked.

 

*This* in my opinion, *is* broken.

 

Teleport is already scalable. The player who wants to "teleport any distance" needs to look at Megascale. He will still have a limited distance, but assuming I want such a power in my game, will be able to teleport anywhere that has any meaning to the game.

 

Another option would be an “Absolute Aspect” Adder. The problem with this is that different powers have different base costs. A +25 point Adder for a moderate scope “Absolute Aspect” may make sense for one power, but be completely overpriced for a power that is far cheaper. And because Adders are added in before applying Advantages and Disadvantages, it permits two problems to occur: it permits Advantages to blow up the price to the point it can’t be afforded by anyone, and it permits Disadvantages to lower the costs of such an absolute power to be again, far cheaper than it should be.

 

This is why I settled on having Absolute Abilities on being a flat cost, purchased as a power. However, I figured that different Absolutes would have different scopes, and should cost different amounts. A character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by Fire should not pay as much for that as a character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by *any* energy attacks. So although there is a flat 50 point cost to having an Absolute Ability, that is multiplied by the Advantage of its scope for its Active cost. And of course, some Absolute Abilities could have more than one Aspect which is Absolute (like penetration and range, from Blink’s Absolute Teleport power), and each Advantage would apply.

 

This is just a different form of adder. And the math doesn't work, as already shown. You want to Teleport anywhere, so you pay 50 points. How is that fair to the character who paid 100 points for a Teleport power that travels far less distance?

 

So I did come up with the best overall method I could think of to handle all potential Absolute Abilities. But if anyone can think of a simpler system that accomplishes the goals of this system equally well' date=' I am excited to hear it.[/quote']

 

The one described in FH, while arguably no simpler, works as well as any absolute can be expected to. You want to be affected by no possible adverse result? The cost should be remarkably close to that of enough defenses against all possible adverse results (PD, ED, Damage Resistance, Flash Def, Power Def, Mental Def, Lack of Weakness and Life Support - doubtless I missed some) to be immune to every possible adverse effect. No, you probably can't afford it. Most 150 point characters can't afford to spend 150 points on a single aspect of their character. No 100 point character can. Tough - you want a concept that is overpowered compared to your teammates.

 

I suspect most absolutes that are not so powerful can be made to fit the FH Absolute Effects structure at a more reasonable cost.

 

If I'm playing 1,000 point Galactic Champions? Well, I think I'd like an attack that Always Hits (+2) and Always Destroys Utterly (+2), so that's 250 points, plus 150 for "Utterly immune to all adverse effects, plus a 250 point "go anywhere, not blockable" movement power and a 250 point "sense anywhere, not blocakble" sensory ability. Now, what should I do with my remaining 100 points? This is shaping up to be a really fun game with every PC taking the above with one SFX or another.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I like it (at least as a house rule).

 

I would probably have made two Absolutes in conflict, that they would cancel each other out and resolve normally. But, that's my preference and a matter of style.

 

The next step is to playtest the rules with your players and see if they love it or hate it and why.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

But if anyone can think of a simpler system that accomplishes the goals of this system equally well, I am excited to hear it.

 

Thanks.

 

Actually, it's called (appropriately enough) the Absolute Effects Rule.

 

Fantasy Hero p250-251 discusses it at length. With luck this whole section will make it into 6E in some form.

 

Others in this thread have gone over the basic premise. But the Rule shifts from Game To Game, has no real set point cost and is mostly a cooperative contract between all the people at the table.

 

The reason many of us look at this as a generalized bad idea is through numerous discussions on the topic over the years. And some playtesting.

 

Absolute Effects with any kind of set cost do not scale well, and generally interact badly with gaming elements.

 

That said many of us have implemented Effective Absolutes in our games with some good results - and some bad.

 

Also - as a side note - it would have been better if you'd utilized Hero Mechanics Game Terms in your OP instead of the language did use. We have a whole host of terms that cover what you're talking about that could have probably presented the idea better to us Mechanically in a Game Language we speak.

[sindyr]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Then it's not really an Absolute, is it? So what's the point of this exercise again?

 

This idea would be better addressed as schtick: Character A's schtick is that he's the fastest, so no one gets to be faster. Character B's schtick is that she's the toughest; so no other (non-)player character has as good defenses. That way it scales to each campaign and genre individually and it doesn't require inordinately complicated rules but rather cooperation between players and GM. Sounds like win-win to me.

 

The idea that the character is the best at X because the GM (either by volition or by mechanic) doesn’t allow anyone better at X in the universe, is a valid idea, and a quite useful one in some games, but it fails to accomplish two of my core goals.

 

First, a character can be the best Teleporter in the Universe, and yet still not have enough oomph to get from one end of the universe to the other. Or a character might be the most invulnerable Brink in the universe, and yet take tons of damage when the antimatter device explodes.

 

The only way to fix this with your idea is to not only make sure the character in question is the best at X, but that you never put him in a situation that in which his power to do X is not enough to handle it. It feels like a kludge, “Let’s see, Hero System can’t handle absolutes, but I my character wants to feel as if there’s nothing his power can’t handle, I better make sure that no circumstances arise where he wants to use his power at level higher than he has purchased.

 

Maybe it’s just me, but the above is a very weird place to GM from. To me, it’s just easier and more logical to make sure that the character simply *has* the oomph to handle whatever get’s thrown at it.

 

Which leads me to my second point: The reason I am playing Hero System is because it’s a toolkit.

 

I mean, I hear this over and over and over again: Hero System is the ultimate toolkit for building any character I would want to play or GM for. Well, clearly it is missing any tools in the kit that would help me or my players build character with Absolute Abilities. Now, I understand that this is not by accident, that the game designer chose to not have these tools in the kit. I am NOT complaining that these tools weren’t provided. Nevertheless, when I buy a toolkit that someone else designed, I may choose to add a few extra tools not originally part of the package because the toolkit as designed by someone else may not cover all the tools I need for the job I am doing.

 

So, no matter what, I *want* the tool of Absolute Abilities. It’s doesn’t have to be of my design, but it needs to somehow implement the idea of a character having an ability that is Absolute, in that it has one or more of the following aspects:

 

-It can’t be prevented from its effect.

-It permits the overriding use of any values from zero to infinity and anywhere in between.

-It makes an impossible or uncertain use of an ability certain.

-It flatly prevents something from occurring that otherwise could not be prevented.

 

We can all agree that there is no universal system or tool for doing this in the toolkit right now. I don’t know how much use I will have for such an Absolute Ability tool, but I do know that I want the tool in my kit before I go out on a job. I don’t want to tell a player that their request cannot be entertained because I showed up without the right tool to do so.

 

So that’s what I am doing here on this thread, trying to craft such a tool. If the tool I am making is too complex, then I am open to hearing simpler and maybe better ways of getting the same job done, but let me be clear, I am committed to making or finding a tool for actual absolutes in this game. This means that while I am looking for the simplest way to add a universal Absolute Ability system to the game, if it *has* to have a certain level of complexity or else it can’t be done, then I will live with the complexity rather than give up on having this tool in the kit.

 

And really, the system I suggested seems no more complex than things like VPPs, Naked Advantages, and combat vs noncombat movement. But if it is too complex for some, then obviously they do not need to employ it. I get the impression that I would be the only one in these forums to use this tool anyways, if it’s not too complex for me, not sure why other people would care if it’s too complex for them when they have no intention of using it in the first place.

 

One final note: I use the phrase “Absolute Ability” to mean something pretty specific and mechanical – something that trumps everything non-Absolute. The fact that in some extremely rare case two Absolutes may conflict, and one may trump the other, doesn’t make either ability non-Absolute from the technical and mechanical way I am employing that phrase.

 

Thanks.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

One final note: I use the phrase “Absolute Ability” to mean something pretty specific and mechanical – something that trumps everything non-Absolute. The fact that in some extremely rare case two Absolutes may conflict' date=' and one may trump the other, doesn’t make either ability non-Absolute from the technical and mechanical way I am employing that phrase.[/quote']

 

OK. How about this for your game. Absolute is a 50 point adder. You purchase at least 50 points of a power and then you purchase the Absolute Adder for that. That power is then Absolute. If it is an Energy Blast affecting PD then it will ignore all PD that is not also purchased as Absolute.

 

If you have an absolute movement power then it will trump any non absolute movement power.

 

If you have an absolute skill then it will achieve its aim unless thwarted by an absolute obstacle.

 

This way you put a fifty point premium on absolute powers. If they come up against other absolute powers then the system works as normal with, for example, the energy blast counting points against the PD.

 

Now I have arbitrarily put the cost of an absolute power as 100 points (50 points of normal ability plus the absolute adder) You could make the buy in cost anything you think balanced and the cost of the adder the same.

 

If you want lots of superheroes to breeze past normals and normal attacks then a couple of absolute defences would be necessary and you might want to change the effects to something like a +2 advantage. That way you get lots of little absolute powers that mean that normal people are not an issue at all but the thought would have to be that you would be competing against villains who would also potentially have absolute powers, so the 1 absolute PD you have that allows you to ignore bullets is nothing against Grond with his absolute 80 STR.

 

More useful?

 

 

Doc

[Checkmate]

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

I must be honest' date=' I am disappointed in the responses. Very disappointed. They range from attacking the goals, to those who didn't read the whole thing (which is understandable, its long, but why reply if you don't read the entire thing?), to people attacking the solution without making any suggestions for how to accomplish the goals.[/quote']Instead of being so defensive, try reading what they're saying: The goal you want to accomplish is something they feel is not worth accomplishing, and they're trying to explain why.

 

Not a single helpful reply. I guess I will have to chalk that up to the principle of self-selection - that Hero System has always lacked Absolute Abilities' date=' and that it's core audience are those who must be strongly anti-Absolute. Perhaps this is the equivalent to discussing evolution in a church.[/quote']

I'll tell you what, you give me one example is source material of an "Absolute Ability" and I'll concede. I'm pretty sure you're not going to find it because it doesn't exist.

 

Bullseye never misses: He's missed

Cannonball is Invulnerable while blastin': He's been knocked out while blasting

Juggernaut is unstoppable: He's been stopped.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be' date=' but I am just stunned. I was expecting to be taken down a peg or two, and that one of the Hero System vets would probably come up with a simpler system to handle the addition of Absolute Attributes, but no one did.[/quote']Most of us feel your absolutes are not good gaming, so why waste energy "making them work"?

Oh well. Maybe some day down the line' date=' if I keep checking, someone will post a helpful *constructive* response and help me figure out how to add this capacity to the game. Even if that doesn't happen, maybe other people wanting the same kind of super hero options will take something functional from my post. At the very least, I have had the opportunity to work things out for my group.[/quote']

If you read the posts they're actually VERY constructive. They explain in detail why this is a bad idea.

 

I suppose I am a firm believer in two guiding principles:

 

1) With a *real* toolkit system, a player can come to a GM and say "How do I build this power" and the GM's response will never be "You can't."

2) With 500+ points, a player ought to be able to purchase just about any power he can come up with.

 

If a player comes to the GM saying "I want to be able to TP anywhere, and never be blocked no matter what" there should be at the very least a way to give the player a trumping ability. He should not have ONLY the option of buying Armor Piercing multiple times, and hoping he never runs into a barrier that has been Hardened one more time than that.

 

That's just one example. I am sure I can come up with examples without end of ways in which a player could ask for a power that either the current Hero System wouldn't be able to make, or would cost many more points that a player could afford even with 500 points.

So you're saying that because you spent 500 points, it should trump anything even if the other guy spent a 1000 points? How does that possibly make sense? They way things are now, generally speaking, the person who has more power (spent more points) wins. That doesn't seem like a fair way of doing things?

 

You can tell such a player "You don't get to play that character.", but *I* do not want that to be my response. If a player is interested in a certain power working a certain way, that's a challenge to the *GM* to make it happen - and price it accordingly, but NOT ridiculously.

 

I can't imagine GMing any other way.

 

I will check back again to see if any helpful replies have been posted. Perhaps now that I have been made to feel like a heretic, I will have more realistic expectations of that happening.

I don't EVER want to play with a GM who won't tell a player no. That's just a recipie for disaster, but okay we'll play it this way. Tell me how you arbitrait the following scenario:

 

Player A wants a power where he can Teleport through anything.

Player B wants a Force Wall nothing can get through.

 

Which player do you plan on disappointing?