Dropping defences

[Sean Waters]

So you have 10 power defence. You are subject to a healing or aid.

 

Assuming you do not drop the power defence do you subtract 10 points from the beneficial effect?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Logic say yes.

 

Kind GM says no....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dropping defences

 

If that odd-looking goblin shaman is approaching you with his hand glowing, I'd give you the choice of resisting his spell whether or not it might be beneficial. Even (mostly) beneficial powers might have interesting side-effects, too...(point being that if you don't want the side-effect, you should do your best to resist the beneficial effect as well).

[Kelcyron]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Unless you took "always on (-1/2)" on your power defense, you have the option of whether or not to use it. However...

 

If that odd-looking goblin shaman is approaching you with his hand glowing' date=' I'd give you the choice of resisting his spell whether or not it might be beneficial. [/quote']

 

So if you don't know what you're getting, you might want to have it up. Even if it is beneficial, then, yes, you do subtract 10 from the effect.

 

Kelcyron

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

So if I have my power defence on, and, presumably switching it off is a zero phase action (as is switching it on) then if someone heals or aids me between my phases I can't turn it off (as I can't take a zero phase action) and if I do turn it off to allow myself to be healed then an opponent holding an action could choose to attack and hit me when my power defence is down?

 

That's certainly the way I read it but it does tend to make healing and aid a very risky business if you are facing opponents with drain/suppress/transform powers.

[schir1964]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Also keep in mind that not only do you subtract 10 Points from the total, you then halve that result since Power Defense is classified as a defense, thus half effect. Or is the order the other way around? I don't remember.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Beast]

Re: Dropping defences

 

if you needed the aid you should try to be under some kind of cover and not in the thick of battle

 

 

So if I have my power defence on, and, presumably switching it off is a zero phase action (as is switching it on) then if someone heals or aids me between my phases I can't turn it off (as I can't take a zero phase action) and if I do turn it off to allow myself to be healed then an opponent holding an action could choose to attack and hit me when my power defence is down?

 

That's certainly the way I read it but it does tend to make healing and aid a very risky business if you are facing opponents with drain/suppress/transform powers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dropping defences

 

The way I usually play it is that there is a small moment that you've dropped your defenses and if an enemy is really observant and sneaky and really waiting for it then yes, they could take advantage. That's probably not going to happen often (even for enemies who do have attacks that work against Power Defense), but it is a possibility the players should be aware of.

 

But I can easily see it the other way around too. It seems that, if you were aware of both a friend and a foe, you could let the friend touch you (DCV 0 or whatever) without letting the enemy hit you. If you're completely focused on an enemy in front of you and a friend behind you tries to put his hands on you it might be different, of course. And DCV isn't PowD, but they seem like similar concepts. The difference might be one of passive vs. active resistance I suppose. Hmm.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Dropping DCV is a very similar matter I had not thought of. I appreciate that you can make it easier for a friend to hit you with a beneficial power but I find it difficult to beleive that you don't have to sacrifice at least some defensive capability when doing so.

 

The easiest solution is to decide that defences and DCV are 'tuneable' - you can let through wahat you want - but that is also probably the least realistic approach.

 

If you DO have to drop defences/DCV against ALL threats to allow a frinedly use of a power that substantially reduces the utility of aid and heal. Sure it is useful to be able to fix someone afterwards but more useful yet to keep tehm ont heir feet ing the first place.

 

I'd be interested to know how people deal with this generally. In the past I've applied the 'tuneable' DEF/DCV without really thinking about it but something came up in a recent game that got me thinking whether this was the ebst way to do it - my overriding concern is consistency but I also want a decent balance between gameplay and realism (whatever 'realism' means int his context )

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Also keep in mind that not only do you subtract 10 Points from the total, you then halve that result since Power Defense is classified as a defense, thus half effect. Or is the order the other way around? I don't remember.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You halve the adjustment effect against defences, so you would reduce the total by 10 and then halve the result ONLY if you were adjusting a defence. I believe...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dropping defences

 

I want to know how you lower PD or ED or Power Defence. What does it look like in the game? END using powers are easy to see, as are focus based stuff. Beyond that, I begin to boggle...

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

I want to know how you lower PD or ED or Power Defence. What does it look like in the game? END using powers are easy to see, as are focus based stuff. Beyond that, I begin to boggle...

 

Doc

 

I can kinda understand PD to a point - you just go all limp and don't tense up the muscles, but how you turn off your natural resistance to energy I have no idea

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dropping defences

 

If you DO have to drop defences/DCV against ALL threats to allow a frinedly use of a power that substantially reduces the utility of aid and heal. Sure it is useful to be able to fix someone afterwards but more useful yet to keep tehm ont heir feet ing the first place.

 

Well, I guess there is always 1-hex Accurate Area of Effect for those beneficial adjustments that are REALLY supposed to be useful in the middle of combat if you want to go with the dropping of DCV is universal....

[Vulcan]

Re: Dropping defences

 

While DCV and DEF (whatever it works against) are superficially similar in that they are defensive abilities represented by numbers, they work in very different ways.

 

DCV is a measure of evasiveness and avoidance. It is, to an extent, tunable in combat. For example, in melee combat if you are fighting someone in front of you and you want, for whatever reason, to let your friend behind you touch you, a simple step back can achieve that goal while simultaneously taking you out of immediate danger from your opponent. A similar situation occurs in ranged combat when both you and your friend take cover from incoming fire in a restrained area.

 

DEF, in all it's forms, is a bit less tunable than that - at least, in my opinion. In my games, you would have to 'actively' drop your DEF to gain the full benefit of what your friend wants to do, which means an observant and quick foe might be able to take advantage. It doesn't happen often, but the possibility makes the players a bit more circumspect in their healing spells.

 

And fair is fair, if the PC's make the rolls to spot it and react in time, I allow them to do it to the bad guys too.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Dropping defences

 

From the FAQ:

 

Does Power Defense automatically block Healing?

 

Power Defense does not interfere with Healing, unless the recipient of the Healing wants it to.

 

and

 

Can a character choose from time to time whether his Power Defense protects against Aid/Succor' date=' or must he irrevocably make that decision at character creation?[/b']

 

It’s something he can apply or not as he chooses, as with any other defense. It’s intended to cover situations where a character doesn’t (for some reason) want to have his powers boosted or altered.

 

I generally take that to mean that he can decide at the time the Healing, Aid, or whatever is applied, rather than that he has to drop his Power Defense. The FAQ entries don't make any statement about "...but he has to drop his Power Defense" or similar.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Thanks for the research

[Jagged]

Re: Dropping defences

 

So you have 10 power defence. You are subject to a healing or aid.

 

Assuming you do not drop the power defence do you subtract 10 points from the beneficial effect?

 

Depends ...

 

 

Maybe Power Defense is like dodging. You want to be hit by one thing but not another, so you actively avoid one type of attact but jump in front of another.

Power Defense doesn't reduce the heal.

 

Maybe Power Defense is like a valve and only allows stuff to flow in one direct.

Power Defense doesn't reduce the heal.

 

Maybe Power Defense is a wall.

Power Defense does reduce the heal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Depends ...

 

 

Maybe Power Defense is like dodging. You want to be hit by one thing but not another, so you actively avoid one type of attact but jump in front of another.

Power Defense doesn't reduce the heal.

 

Maybe Power Defense is like a valve and only allows stuff to flow in one direct.

Power Defense doesn't reduce the heal.

 

Maybe Power Defense is a wall.

Power Defense does reduce the heal.

 

I think the answer, for me at least, would be to be able to better define your Power (and other) defences at teh time of build. So, the base assumption is that a defence is like a wall and, while it stands, nothing can pass through in either direction BUT if you buy your defence with an adder, for 5 points, it acts like a valve or dodge and you get to choose on a case by case basis without having to drop the whole thing. There seems to be a clear difference in utility and so there should be a difference in cost.

[Jagged]

Re: Dropping defences

 

I think the answer' date=' for me at least, would be to be able to better define your Power (and other) defences at teh time of build. So, the base assumption is that a defence is like a wall and, while it stands, nothing can pass through in either direction BUT if you buy your defence with an adder, for 5 points, it acts like a valve or dodge and you get to choose on a case by case basis without having to drop the whole thing. There seems to be a clear difference in utility and so there should be a difference in cost.[/quote']

 

Oh harsh! Don't the rules quoted above say it wouldn't prevent Healing? So maybe that should be a limitation on the Wall version rather than an adder to the rest

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Oh harsh! Don't the rules quoted above say it wouldn't prevent Healing? So maybe that should be a limitation on the Wall version rather than an adder to the rest

 

 

 

I'm a harsh kinda guy. grr.

 

 

 

Good point though. Is it worth -1/4? I think it probably is.

[Istaran]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Good point though. Is it worth -1/4? I think it probably is.

It will depend how common Healing/Aid are. But a lim definately seems like the way to go.

 

Seems like it would also be a prereq for 'Always On' on your Power Defense.

 

Hmm.. -1/4 = you have to completely drop your PowD to get full effect from Aid/Succor/Heal. Risky in combat sometimes, but otherwise not a big deal. -3/4 = your PowD always reduces Aid/Succor/Heal. You have a harder time being assisted, and that flaw becomes more pronounced the more you buy up PowD (as does the point savings).

Maybe -0 = Only certain types of beneficial powers are blocked (Aid and Succor but not Heal) but that also allows Always On to be taken. So -1/2 = your PowD always blocks some types of beneficial adjustments but never blocks others (blocks Aid/Succor but never Heal in this case).

 

I'm happy with it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Dropping defences

 

I think the answer' date=' for me at least, would be to be able to better define your Power (and other) defences at teh time of build. So, the base assumption is that a defence is like a wall and, while it stands, nothing can pass through in either direction BUT if you buy your defence with an adder, for 5 points, it acts like a valve or dodge and you get to choose on a case by case basis without having to drop the whole thing. There seems to be a clear difference in utility and so there should be a difference in cost.[/quote']

 

"Nothing can pass through in either direction"? That would imply that a character could not use a power that works against power defense while having his own power defense active. That really does not seem to make sense to me unless I'm misreading that...

 

I would say just go with the rules clarification listed above from the faq unless the character is specifically built to not be help-able (err, is built to not be able to be helped?) for some strange reason.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Perhaps I did not mean 'either direction'

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Dropping defences

 

Wasn't sure if I had misunderstood or what. I still think that having the defense be just that, defense, makes sense and maybe having a limitation if it affects helpful effects, but that's just my opinion and I have much less experience with Hero so I'll probably just go with whatever the consensus is...if one is reached.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Dropping defences

 

I'm a harsh kinda guy. grr.

 

 

 

Good point though. Is it worth -1/4? I think it probably is.

 

Sounds a lot like an 'Always On' Power Defence to me.