Can this be done x 2

[Utech]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Now' date=' without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? [/quote']

 

I think you've got the wrong approach. Just because you can think of a character does not mean that you can always make it for 300 CP in a way that that any use of their power that comes up in game will not fail due to not having purchased the right mechanics. The game is not entitled to provide that to you.

 

If you want the ability to have any power you might want when you want it, you need a VPP. That's the only thing that will do the trick. Given the 300 CP cap, it won't be able to do absolutely everything.

[braincraft]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Okay, this is the old 'spend points on a flashlight' thing.

 

Don't lay this problem on HERO, okay? It's a problem in every system. In Dungeons and Dragons, you can use a cheap length of rope to climb stuff, bind stuff together, tie people up, hang someone, or create a crude trap mechanism, even though it costs less than the magic spells that let you do all that stuff without rope. Does that make rope unbalanced? No, because

 

a) in almost all cases it's going to be an incidental use of an incidental item; once you've defeated someone and made it trivial to kill them or do whatever else, no one cares if you tie them up and bring them to the local law instead (or keep them as hostages or whatever). The rope isn't a new special ability, it's just taking care of an incidental detail that no one cares about, because the game is about bashing orcs/taking their stuff, or in some cases bashing supervillains/rescuing a busful of orphans from a volcano. Also,

 

Explicit powers and abilities within the game engine that permit you to do stuff like tie people up or create rope traps are generally much more useful and reliable than the free or nearly-free incidentals that you might otherwise be forced to use. If you tie up your prisoners with cheap rope you got at the store, the GM would be well within his rights to have them escape from the weak bonds or say that you're simply out of rope. If you tie up your prisoners with your Indestructo-Bonds, which you spent points on, the GM is going to have to come up with a serious explanation why you can't use a power you bought fair and square, or how normal criminals managed to cut through cable rated for holding super-strong villains. On the other hand, if you pick up Captain Napalm's Atomic Nerf Gun, you might get one or two shots off, but there's going to be some reason why you can't use something you didn't spend points for. Maybe it runs out of ammo right away. Maybe it's broke, and only Captain Napalm knows how to fix it. Maybe your character just doesn't feel like the weapon is sporting to use. Maybe UNTIL wants to confiscate it. But the mechanics are eventually going to insist upon a baseline to the otherwise malleable narrative, and the rebound is going to be harder the more you try to abuse your leeway.

 

If you want to use your napalm attack to commit petty arson, fine. That's incidental, and no one cares. You could just as well have bought a bic from the corner store and done it the old-fashioned way. But if you spend all your days as a player and/or GM accounting for the point value of every incidental effect, you're going to find that life is too short and the days are too long.

 

Don't pay points for a flashlight.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

You are starting with powerful absolutes' date=' and you probably can get most of that into 300 points but you wont have much left over for other stuff. Being able to teleport anything you know about anywhere you like is a very beefy ability.[/quote']

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

[Utech]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I *think* the truth is that' date=' without GM hand-wavery and overriding, the Hero System is a game of mechanics first with the story existing secondarily and a lower priority level. Like in Forge games, the resources the plaer spends (or in this case, dont spend) overrule the internal logic of the game world.[/quote']

 

I've never had this problem. And almost never make a character with a VPP.

 

My real experience with the system has shown that it is story first -- dramatic sense rules the day. Players and GM work together to make a memorable world and characters. If there's an oversight in character (or world!) creation, everyone works together to find a solution that's fun and fair to everyone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Well, at least now I feel a little more like I wasn't so far off base, since this is what I said at the beginning - the only way to get consistency and fidelity to the internal logic of the truths of the game world is to employ VPPs across the board.

 

 

Sindyr, I can see that this desire of yours to master absolutes in game is a reflection of your extenal reality

 

Yes. If you want to build an ability around a very flexible concept that enables you to do a wide variety of things, VPP is the way to go. The system provides the framework for that very reason.

 

There is absolutely no need to apply them 'across the board' though. Where the concept calls for a completely flexible ability, use VPP, where you are able to define what it can and can't do, use a MP or EC or a simple power.

 

If you insist on coming up with concepts that allow you to do almost anything then you will have a lot of characters with VPPs.

 

Why not go and design a nice straightforward brick: tough, strong, likes poetry and silly accents. Not able to lift ABSOLUTELY anything. Not invulnerable to anything, just very tough and resilient.

 

Or an energy projector, perhaps elecrticity. Highly resistant to energy attacks, flight but only within say a few metres of the ground as he uses electromagnetic repulsion. He can project electricity which damages targets, project an EMP that knocks out electronics and can set up an electrostatic field that deflects incoming physical missiles. That's it. Nothing else. He lacks the fine control to take over machinery or make opponent's muscles contract at a whim, which would allow him to control their actions. He cannot read computer discs by looking at them. He cannot turn into electricity and teleport from one place to another.

 

Maybe, in time, he'll learn to do all these things. For now, though, he definitely can't.

 

Seriously, you should play a character like that for a while. You'll enjoy it.

[Utech]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

 

You could build this as a Multipower with slots for everything in your home. But that's silly.

 

Honestly, I'm stumped. You perfectly describe what a VPP is for and then complain the system is broken because you don't want to "resort" to a VPP?

 

Do you also not want to...

 

• ...resort to Strength to lift heavy things with your hands?
  
• ...resort to Running to run?
  
• ...resort to Teleportation to move from one place to another without passing through the space between?
  

I'm serious. Are there other parts of the Hero System built to do exactly what you want to do that you refuse to use?

[Beast]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I would not use summon to get this effect

for me I would go this route

 

napalm: EB 15d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Misfire; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Area Of Effect (53" Cone; +1), Continuous (+1) (337 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Common Circumstances (needs oxygen,not under water; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (lighting the match; -1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

 

But that's not my question. My questions is this: If you Summon a decent quantity of napalm over an area, and then strike a match and toss it, does the napalm not burn? After all, you paid for the power to Summon napalm, not for the 15d6 AoE Fire RKA?

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

 

Well it is still a pretty useful ability, don't go making out it isn't. All we have done is remove 'anything he can see'. What does this guy keep at home? Anything out of the ordinary? Incendiary bombs? Razor wire? His motorbike? I'd still probably say what I said before though - you can do this with a half dozen powers in a MP. Depending on the maximum amount of damage you want to be able to do with something you keep at home then you can probably get it into 200 points or even 100 points. However, if you keep a fuel/air bomb in the bedroom , a complete armoury in the basement and a dozen military vehicles in the garage it is going to cost more.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I used to play a roleplaying 'game' where rules were: "You cannot do anything to another player's character, only attempt to do something to them. For example, you don't type 'I punch Istaran in the chin.', you type 'I swing a punch at Istaran's chin.' and then I type 'Istaran ducks under your swing.' or 'Istaran is sent sprawling.' etc." There really weren't more rules than that.. characters of the type you're describing are quite natural in such a system. You put some forethought into what types of SFX they can generate, and then creatively apply those SFX as you go. There's no way to judge a priori if two characters are roughly equal in power, you just kind of judge it from the results.

 

One person came up with a character whose big SFX was she could reshape metal; if she's touching a piece of metal, she can change its shape quickly at will, and that affect carries through metal as long as its continuous contact from her to where she wants to produce a change. In her hands it was a mediocre and interesting power; when she left the game and let me keep her character as an NPC, it became much more obvious how insanely powerful that is.

 

In general if you start with a broadly defined SFX and say "I can do anything this SFX justifies!" you get an insanely powerful character, especially by Hero standards.

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

 

1) You can see the sun. Maybe not, it has a continuous Flash going on.. but you can see the moon! So you can teleport anything you want out of people's hands onto the moon.

The Teleporter is hit by a Mind Control and ordered to cause as much destruction as he can. So he teleports the moon on top of the city's largest building. Why did we think this was an okay power definition?

2) There's an incoming attack! The Teleporter teleports the Bank Vault door from his local bank into the way to block the shot! That ought to do it! He's fairly certain it's in the same place he saw it last. Now to retaliate, let's teleport my noisy neighbor's convertible on top of the bad-guy. After all, he's a night owl and so it should be parked in his driveway this time of day while he sleeps off his hangover. What, the baddy's strong enough that he's lifting it up off the ground? No problem, I'll just teleport a lit match into the gas tank. Good thing I have this Bank Vault door to shield me from the blast. Why did we think this was an okay power definition?

3) The Teleporter keeps a bag of caltrops in his room. Normal people might scatter them to make it hard to walk in an area. The Teleporter teleports them into his opponents' hearts. After all, he knows where the caltrops are and can imagine his opponent's hearts. Why did we think this was an okay power definition?

 

If it hasn't occured to you yet, the powers as defined are not in line with a 300 pt Hero character. For that matter, number 1 as defined is not in line with a finite pt Hero character. (I rearrange the stars in the night sky to spell out "All your base are belong to us.") All of these need to be tightened down to more restrictive versions to work in Hero system.

1) I'm pretty sure this is just TP Usable as Attack (Limit it if you really don't want it to work on other characters), Ranged. I think there's a way to make the range limit based on LOS. However a) the distance the object travels in one teleport will be limited by the inches of teleport you buy (perhaps factoring in non-combat multiples? I'm not sure off hand how that works in UAA.). You may wish to multipower it to have different Megascale options etc.

2) I would pare this down to "he has a table that he is thoroughly familiar with and can keep stuff there. He can call stuff from the table to his hand, but it puts a temporary strain on him, and he has to release it back to the table to call another thing. It must be in hand to do so." Then, look at the examples in the book for Utility Belts. Basically, they are Multipowers where everything in the MP is either a OAF or OIF, and the overall Multipower is a OIF (Utility Belt). If someone takes the belt away, you lose the whole thing, and also you cannot swap out powers where the focus is currently out of your possession. Well, this sounds like a 'utility belt' where the 'belt' itself is not able to be taken away from you. So the Utility Table has no OIF on the pool cost, but you still have to put back the items you take off of it (by having them in hand and releasing them back to the table) before you can take out more things. In this case, SFX logic would allow you to make use of all the items if the fight takes place in your house, but would also allow a thief to steal your stuff off the table. (As a GM I would only do the thief thing if I saw you abusing the other part, like going to the table and grabbing a bunch of the items to bring with you and use more than the MP would allow.)

3) I think Power skill for the TP in #1 is likely enough. In general though this isn't D&D; you need to target based on spacial relations. In other words, if you want to teleport that match into the gas tank you either need to 'see' the gas tank with some targetting sense, or else you're making a guess based on your knowledge of the shape of cars and where you expect the gas tank to be relative to the parts of the car you do see, etc. Maybe on this model of car the gas tank is a few inches higher than you thought and the lit match appears within the liquid gas and goes out (no oxygen) before it can do any harm?

For power tricks that you want to become more reliable with, you discuss the SFX with your GM and come down with a Power that has the right mechanics. Generally in either a MP or a VPP.

 

 

In general, as I said, an unrestricted broadly defined SFX used to do anything the SFX can justify is just out of line with the concept of game balance. You and your fellow gamers need to decide if you want a game with game balance, where you need to nail down the limits of exactly what you can do within your SFX and price it out, or if you want to play a game where imagination runs wild and 'balance' is simply not a factor.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

 

 

What I'm amazed is you consider this such a limited power. It seems very much the opposite to me. Kind of Magneto limited. I could probably build that with a combination of enhanced senses and teleport usable as attack ( or maybe on others) assuming mundane objects in the house I'd just let you buy stuff with ingame money.. I would probably say peoples biofields interfere with his power so he can't teleport needles into peoples brains and such. He'd need to buy that as some sort odf no normal defense attack that does body! Also, if you have a mark 15 destroyer rifle in your house its a little different. Normally I find exoteleport a little too overwhelming a power to use myself but to each his own.

 

Would a lit match in a gas tank make it explode if it teleported inside the gas with no air? Wouldn't only work if you teleported the match to where there was air like the air pocket in the top of a partially full tank?? Some serious precision needed there.

 

Don't you ever want to play like Spider-man or someone without some version of minor omnipotence?

 

Anyway, any reasonable GM is not going to be as strangely hardassed as you seem to think the norm about effecting objects around you. There are several sections on interacting with the environment you might want to look at again.

[Beast]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

if you are going to give your player the points to pay for said effect

then all is well

if not then the payer and you are going to have to figure out how they are going to pay for it with the points on hand

which means what amount of limitations you are willing to put on it or have the power at a reduced level

 

the big thing is you get the powers you want when you pay the points for them

at what amount of points is up to the GM

Is this *any* different from saying "the system is working as intended, if your power doesn't seem to work the way the world logical consistency would demand, then either you built it wrong, and so should suffer, or it's too expensive and it's more imprtant that you don't get power you didn't pay for even if that makes the game world stop making sense in some ways?"

 

I'm being deadly serious - with the guys who can create stuff, for example - one would imagine that creating napalm, or even basic gas, is not hard *from a story point of view*, if the mechanics forbid it do you just decide not to care that suddenly the truth of the gameworld doesn't add up, because the mechanics and point totals are more important?

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

OK so I think I am getting the following from people replies:

 

1) Some people have never had this problem.

 

Not sure how to use that to help me, unless its a subtle way of saying Bad Sindyr! You play differently!

 

2) Everybody should play to have fun, its all about drama.

 

Same problem, this rah-rah mantra does NOT stop the illogic of the base issue of atificially reduced useability with no in game logic from ruining things.

 

3) Sindyr, you are trying to power game and make abusive characters. -or- character that can actually do what their powers suggest are too powerful for anything other than fiction!

 

I know this not to be true, in other game system I have both GMed and played incredibly more powerful characters than Mr. I Can TP Stuff From My House. (this sentence makes me lol)

 

4) VPPs *are* the solution to someone wanting to use their ability broadly without wanting to stay inside the lines of their pre-thought limited uses.

 

The problem here is that *every* power set ultimately *should* be able to have some versatile use - I *want* the player's coming up with new ways to leverage their abilities. Plus I don't want to be, "Here's *your VPP, Fred. Here's *your* VPP, Sam. Here's *your* VPP, Jack" etc.

 

Hero System is a complex game which is perhaps the perfect system for quantizing the effects a character has on the game world. Problem is, as it seems to turn out, by disallowing all non prebought effects you turn a story game into more of a tactical wargame without the board, I think, where the only moves your character really has are the one's you have prethought and prepurchased.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - even D&D isn't a *bad* roleplaying game. But I am wondering if I need a game that , for sure, has balancing CP versus powers as a priority, but doesn't place that goal that of respecting the internal logic of the truth of the game world, and which defines powers in terms of their *internal game-world" effects. For example, you limitations on what you can teleport is based on *in-game* factors, like distance, mass, line-of-sight, familiarity, possible a skill roll, and *not* based on what the story effect of each teleport would be. One that is, for lack of a better word, story-effect agnostic, letting the chip fall where they may in order to embrace and emphasize the integrity and reality of the game world.

 

I am still processing all this, and I continue to thank all of your for help me.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

if you are going to give your player the points to pay for said effect

then all is well

 

This only works when either the player or the GM knows all the logically doable effects beforehand.

 

And what with human creativity and the playing field being a richly detailed world where the possibilities are only confined to one's imagination, I am fairly certain that while what you say may work in theory, in practice there will ALWAYS be a use that hadn't been considered when the power was purchased, that if the GM restricts the player from doing, seems bizarrely limiting and not at all respectful of the integrity of the story and its continuity and logic.

[Beast]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

this could be done

you just need to figure out what the heaviest thing in your house would be

the fridge,water heater and bath tub would the heaviest things at say 200 kg and pay the points for it

now I would not charge you any points other than the base/vehicle perk points

but you would have to pay for anything unusual, like that hanging 16 ton wt set for the villian that threatens you with a banana

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

[jtelson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

 

Pretty easy, a moderate to large multipower with EB, RKA, HKA, Flash, Images, Entangle, Maybe some Stretching and season to taste with a handful of other powers most with Variable Advantage and Variable SFX and you can simulate most gear a GM would care about; Add a transform for other minor things (There's your deck of cards), toss in teleport and you're set.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later' date=' when his character points are gone.[/quote']

 

This is an intrinsic limitation to any point-based system. If you don't have points left over, you don't get new abilities. If you want to consistently be using fairly minor effects you did not pay for specifically, that's the Power Skill. If you want to consistently add major effects, that is a VPP.

 

If every character is infinitely versatile, frankly I think that makes for a boring game. Why does Captain Omnipotent even need teammates?

 

I'll give you an example. You buy a RKA machine gun and you buy 4 clips of 32 bullets. That means that, with your 4 shot autofire you have a maximum of 8 shots per clip, 32 shots in all.

 

Now you run out of ammo. No worries, you think, I'll go buy some more. I have my credit card, I know the caliber I need.

 

However, that means you are getting something for nothing, and whilst you may be able to do that occasionally, in a pinch, maybe with a power skill roll, it is not something you can do all the time.

 

The GM could just say, "You can't do it - you din't spend the points", but that bursts the bubble so that isn't the approach I'd take. If I was GMing I'd maybe make it hard to find an ammo shop, or I'd throw something at you that you had to deal with there and then to stop you being able to wander off, or I'd let you find some ammo but have it jam in the gun and so not be usable. I might even let you do it once, but not twice.

 

Fair example. I have GM'd characters who can just pick up more charges back at base. So they might be able to recharge easily given the right circumstances. But those same characters have a serious problem if they are away from their supply source for an extended period. Their charges don't mystically reappear at the stroke of midnight - they have to GET new charges.

 

The fairly minor advantage of a ready recharge at the base is offset by the fairly minor drawback that they can't recharge at all when away from base/modern tech for an extended period. SFX based +0 advantages and -0 limitations.

 

If you kept on trying to get something for nothing I'd have a word and suggest you spend some XP and buy your clips as recoverable - allowing you to scavenge the battlefield' date=' or local shops, for ammo after a battle.[/quote']

 

Emphasis added.

 

For the point-based system to be functional, you cannot get something for nothing. Hero uses points to enforce a balance of abilities. It is not a game designed to allow the most creative/persuasive player to have a character who is more powerful than his teammates.

 

It is easy to come up with sfx that 'logically' would make you the most powerful being on the planet' date=' and if that is your starting point, prepare to be disappointed. The responsibility lies with you to make your concept fit in the available points. Sometimes - often - you won't start as powerful or fully realised as you want - that is part of the incentive to play.[/quote']

 

What is the point of character advancement if you can already do everything?

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

By "later on", I would expect you have earned some xp which you can use to add this capability. This might be simulated by having a VPP limited to (only pre-designed slots from items he already has at his house". You can add items to the list when your character has down time. No extra cost. Or it could be simulated by a Multipower, with new slots reflecting the character thinking "Hey - I should keep some of this at my house just in case."

 

Here's hoping you lack either a secret ID or a nosy neighbour who wonders about all that military hardware moving through hour doors and calls Homeland Security.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later' date=' which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?[/quote']

 

As we have left off the clear mechanic for building the near-infinitely versatile character, you buy a Multipower and you add slots for new items you buy for your home with experience. Not enough xp? You have not located the barbed wire, or paid for it, or figured out how to reliably store it so it can teleport to surround someone. More practice and time, and more xp, will solve that.

 

Or you play this character in a Heroic game where he may purchase equipment with cash, rather than character points - and so can everyone else!

 

Yes, and now you can't place anything else in your base for future teleportation without spending CP. For example, a flashlight - because you haven't bought any "light" mechanics and you don't have any CP.

 

I must be the only here who founds that unbearably artificial. You ask the GM - waitasec, don't I probably have a flashlight at home, most people do."

GM rolls: sure, you do

Player: OK I teleport to me so we don't have to fight these creatures in the total dark.

GM: Nope, you didn't prepurchase that effect and you have no CP left.

Player: What? Can't I teleport stuff from my house to me?

GM: Nope, you can't buy that ability. Teleporting stuff from your house is your SFX, meaning that you can only teleport the specific items you have paid for.

Player: But I wanted a character that could TP anything in my house to me! That doesn't seem too much to ask for.

GM: In Hero System, it is. But that's OK because it's a reallt cool system that you can learn to work with, and when things don't work out, you can blame yourself for not having had either the foresight in real life or the CP or both to have prebuilt it.

Player: I quit.

 

Let's review the issue. Many others have noted that, if the flashlight is of minor impact, the GM would logically allow it to be accessed, possibly with use of the power skill. Let's look at some possible issues with the flashlight, though:

 

- you don't recall where you left the blasted thing - you recall using it when you were in the basement and the light burned out while you were looking for your barbed wire, and now you don't remember where you left it.

 

- the batteries are dead, or the bulb is burned out.

 

- that #@*& CAT - he knocked the flashlight off the table and the bulb broke!

 

Just the top of my head. And the flashlight likely won't weather the first 12d6 attack very well...

 

OK so I think I am getting the following from people replies:

 

1) Some people have never had this problem.

 

Not sure how to use that to help me, unless its a subtle way of saying Bad Sindyr! You play differently!

 

Unless things have changed, you have not read the rules, much less played at all.

 

4) VPPs *are* the solution to someone wanting to use their ability broadly without wanting to stay inside the lines of their pre-though limited uses.

 

The problem here is that *every* power set ultimately *should* be able to have some versatile use - I *want* the player's coming up with new ways to leverage their abilities. Plus I don't want to be, "Here's *your VPP, Fred. Here's *your* VPP, Sam. Here's *your* VPP, Jack" etc.

 

I generally create a broad array of powers for many characters, but very few have a VPP. A VPP is, however, the tool for infinite flexibility. It was designed as such - specifically for abilities which should reasonably have a huge array of possible mechanical effects.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - even D&D isn't a *bad* roleplaying game. But I am wondering if I need a game that ' date=' for sure, has balancing CP versus powers as a priority, but doesn't place that goal that of respecting the internal logic of the truth of the game world, and which defines powers in terms of their *internal game-world" effects. For example, you limitations on what you can teleport is based on *in-game* factors, like distance, mass, line-of-sight, familiarity, possible a skill roll, and *not* based on what the story effect of each teleport would be. One that is, for lack of a better word, story-effect agnostic, letting the chip fall where they may in order to embrace and emphasize the integrity and reality of the game world.[/quote']

 

In a story, the writer sets these limits. In a game, they are set by the rules. In how many works of fiction (movies, books, comics, whatever) does the character with the versatile power suite solve the problem every time with no issues? he, too, is limited in what he can and cannot do.

 

If he is not, the story has no drama, and the game has no real interest. It's just a matter of figuring out how my SFX can somehow deal handily with whatever the challenge may be.

[jtelson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

This only works when either the player or the GM knows all the logically doable effects beforehand.

 

And what with human creativity and the playing field being a richly detailed world where the possibilities are only confined to one's imagination, I am fairly certain that while what you say may work in theory, in practice there will ALWAYS be a use that hadn't been considered when the power was purchased, that if the GM restricts the player from doing, seems bizarrely limiting and not at all respectful of the integrity of the story and its continuity and logic.

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

It sounds like, for you, they're that tool in the box that you don't need. You're clearly not concerned about balance between players, and if you're group's ok with that then there's no reason in the world you should be concerned.

 

Have your players build the characters they want, that work for the stories the group wants to tell. If something comes up in play that they should have let them add it. The points only matter if you care about them.

 

Use the rules to determine outcomes; To help define effects to the extent that you need a system for that.

 

Stop worrying about points.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

3) Sindyr, you are trying to power game and make abusive characters. -or- character that can actually do what their powers suggest are too powerful for anything other than fiction!

 

I know this not to be true, in other game system I have both GMed and played incredibly more powerful characters than Mr. I Can TP Stuff From My House. (this sentence makes me lol)

 

I gave the example earlier of the character that could shape metal. It doesn't occur immediately that that is a ZOMG POWER! to most people. When you think of all the things that can be fit into that special effect it becomes more obvious. She gets in a fight with a knight in shining armor. So she reaches out a razor-thin tendril of metal from the metal she keeps on hand and touchs his armor: and turns it into an iron maiden! Insta-kill!

 

Similarly with your Mr. I can TP Stuff From My House. Imagine what Batman could do with that power? Being a millionare only costs 5 cp! When the abusiveness of the power is limited to how far you want to go abusing it, it's not balanced. Built as a VPP, or better yet a MP (want to 'memorize' more things in your house so you can call them to you? That costs CP) it is restricted to keep you, as a character, in line with the other characters. You might be more versatile, but you're giving up raw power (by spending your CP on slot/control costs).

 

4) VPPs *are* the solution to someone wanting to use their ability broadly without wanting to stay inside the lines of their pre-though limited uses.

 

The problem here is that *every* power set ultimately *should* be able to have some versatile use - I *want* the player's coming up with new ways to leverage their abilities. Plus I don't want to be, "Here's *your VPP, Fred. Here's *your* VPP, Sam. Here's *your* VPP, Jack" etc.

 

Again, use Power Skill for one-off I do something nifty options, then buy them permanently as MP slots. If they're worth points. (As someone said above, don't pay points for a flashlight. )

 

Beyond that, perhaps be a little patient. I play a shapeshifter in my current Hero game. There's a few things I want to be able to do that are just going to have to wait on points (what, I can't make claws? Dang it!). There's a few things here and there the GM will probably let me get away with if need be (I can shape shift into 'any form' according to sight, touch, smell/taste, and hearing with imitation and makeover.. it's technically an incredibly pricey cosmetic change, but when someone pays that many points for something, a little leeway for imaginitive use here and there may be justified. I shouldn't have to buy "Transform (locked door into unlocked door)": if I can get a hold of the key for a moment, I can 'imitate' it with my finger perhaps?). Other things the GM has given me for free on a fleeting basis when he feels like it. (For story reasons, I have a reason why I 'should' be able to detect demons, which the GM gives me when he feels like it for moments at a time to taunt me and make me spend the points to have it reliably.)

 

Hero System is a complex game which is perhaps the perfect system for quantizing the effects a character has on the game world. Problem is, as it seems to turn out, by disallowing all non prebought effects you turn a story game into more of a tactical wargame without the board, I think, where the only moves your character really has are the one's you have prethought and prepurchased.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - even D&D isn't a *bad* roleplaying game. But I am wondering if I need a game that , for sure, has balancing CP versus powers as a priority, but doesn't place that goal that of respecting the internal logic of the truth of the game world, and which defines powers in terms of their *internal game-world" effects. For example, you limitations on what you can teleport is based on *in-game* factors, like distance, mass, line-of-sight, familiarity, possible a skill roll, and *not* based on what the story effect of each teleport would be. One that is, for lack of a better word, story-effect agnostic, letting the chip fall where they may in order to embrace and emphasize the integrity and reality of the game world.

 

I am still processing all this, and I continue to thank all of your for help me.

 

The fine art of GMing, especially in Hero, is balancing game balance against other concerns. Is it okay to have a character that can spontaneously summon things to him from home? Maybe? The problem is if you give this a blanket okay then you run into a problem where now you have to either take it away or deal with the consequences when the player puts a sherman tank in his garage. Is it okay for him to be summoning a sherman tank on demand? If he paid points for Vehicle (hey, that's one you can share costs between the party if you really want) then maybe it's okay? If he's making it appear mid-combat I would concider requiring a highly limited Teleport movement power on the vehicle itself to balance out.. if he's just pulling it in between scenes I'd think about how much better that is than needing to drive it from wherever it's parked. Enough to be worth points? Perhaps not.

 

 

As for the question of whether everyone needs a VPP: if that's the kind of game you want to run, maybe you should make it a house-rule? Pick an AP limit, require a roll (I'd make it a fixed roll, maybe 12- -1 for each 10 AP or something, adjust to taste) and say that in your campaign if you can come up with an interesting 'Power' that isn't on your sheet but fits your SFX you can attempt it. Maybe that will go over well in your campaign? I expect it to be appreciated as a concept and rarely used, but that's just me. I don't know the people at your table.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

It sounds like, for you, they're that tool in the box that you don't need. You're clearly not concerned about balance between players, and if you're group's ok with that then there's no reason in the world you should be concerned.

 

Have your players build the characters they want, that work for the stories the group wants to tell if something comes up in play that they should have let them add it. The points only matter if you care about them.

 

Use the rules to determine outcomes; To help define effects to the extent that you need a system for that.

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

rep'd.

 

That is the best answer. You find the point limits for characters constraining, and you aren't concerned with balance between the characters. So just build the powers using the system mechanics, ignore the points and add any new powers the character would logically have on the spot.

 

It's a toolbox. You don't like that tool. Don't use it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

This only works when either the player or the GM knows all the logically doable effects beforehand.

 

And what with human creativity and the playing field being a richly detailed world where the possibilities are only confined to one's imagination, I am fairly certain that while what you say may work in theory, in practice there will ALWAYS be a use that hadn't been considered when the power was purchased, that if the GM restricts the player from doing, seems bizarrely limiting and not at all respectful of the integrity of the story and its continuity and logic.

Role playing is an interactive activity. Even using the Hero rules as written you're going to find situations where the answer to some situation is not clear; that's going to be even more the case when your game goes into non-canonical rules. Even after running our ongoing Champions campaign for 16+ years and gaming together for over 20 years our group doesn't agree on every rules interpretation and we essentially have no house rules. In fact, we use the rules pretty much vanilla precisely we can't all agree on some house rules some of us would like to implement.

 

My point is that even with a very cooperative group of friends that have been playing together for a very long time we have disputes. Unless you've been gifted with the perfect RPG group (if such a thing even exists) you're likely to have a very bumpy ride once you wander off the beaten path of the written rules.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

this could be done

you just need to figure out what the heaviest thing in your house would be

the fridge,water heater and bath tub would the heaviest things at say 200 kg and pay the points for it

now I would not charge you any points other than the base/vehicle perk points

but you would have to pay for anything unusual, like that hanging 16 ton wt set for the villian that threatens you with a banana

 

There's another use I hadn't even thought of - teleport something heavy like the fridge above something fragile, like the bad guy.

 

This is what I mean, there are so many potential uses, I could not hope to think of every single one of them beforehand.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Pretty easy' date=' a moderate to large multipower with EB, RKA, HKA, Flash, Images, Entangle, Maybe some Stretching and season to taste with a handful of other powers most with Variable Advantage and Variable SFX and you can simulate most gear a GM would care about; Add a transform for other minor things (There's your deck of cards), toss in teleport and you're set.[/quote']

 

I bet that any non VPP you could design beforehand, I can (after you do that) come up with an item I could put in my house that wouldn't be covered in a story-truth appropriate way. Then we are back to the GM saying, "well, you can't teleport *that*."

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

This is what I mean' date=' there are so many potential uses, I could not hope to think of every single one of them beforehand.[/quote']

 

That is the first sign that the power is defined way too broadly and is probably too versatile for anything short of a VPP.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

It sounds like, for you, they're that tool in the box that you don't need. You're clearly not concerned about balance between players, and if you're group's ok with that then there's no reason in the world you should be concerned.

 

Have your players build the characters they want, that work for the stories the group wants to tell. If something comes up in play that they should have let them add it. The points only matter if you care about them.

 

Use the rules to determine outcomes; To help define effects to the extent that you need a system for that.

 

Stop worrying about points.

 

Maybe that is the key for me and my group. Maybe we need to play this game backwards.

 

Instead of focussing on points, maybe we should just decide what powers with what limits each has, and then build that, however many points it needs in the System.

 

Of course, then we have to do any balancing ourselves, as opposed to a game like BoH/MEGS, in which I believe you can use points to buy powers instead of effects.

 

Plus if we have to do all the character creation balancing work ourselves, we could just stay in Torg.

 

But it's an interesting idea I will bring up when we meet.

[jtelson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I bet that any non VPP you could design beforehand' date=' I can (after you do that) come up with an item I could put in my house that wouldn't be covered in a story-truth appropriate way. Then we are back to the GM saying, "well, you can't teleport *that*."[/quote']

 

I would argue that the objects that would break even a simple MP would not be story-truth appropriate for the character to have put in his house.