Tk with no strength defense

[hfergus]

I would like a little help on a “TK” I am trying to build. I am trying to build a power that can lift someone that cannot be broken by strength, just having flight or TK. (If a wind picks you up I do not see how strength helps you come back down, at least not in a single phase) Sounds like flight, Usable as an attack (UAA). The below build can lift any animate object weight, but only 100kg inanimate according to my understanding of the rules:

 

Flight 1", Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (5 Active Points) Seems a bit cheap since only inanimate weight is a problem. (You could drop a blue whale on someone’s head using this- but getting it up high enough to do any damage might take awhile.)

Also I would possibly like to use it to slam a held character with 40 str. Using velocity as move through the below would work:

 

Flight 24", Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (132 Active Points)Seems pricey except for the dropping a blue whale on someone’s head. Now you could get the blue whale in position fairly quickly- to drop that is. As a battering ram, 8d6 is it. See below for a power that could work against inanimate object: (could use the object as a battering ram – 8d6)

Flight 24", Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (x64 maximum weight per inanimate target; +2 1/2) (204 Active Points)

 

Ummm… WOW! I’ll say it backwards. WOW! I’ll say it inside out. OWO! Seems really high for a 40 str TK that you cannot use str against. Even removing the indirect does not help much. It is too powerful (due to the admittedly rare blue whale tactic – and now you could drop a supertanker on someone’s head) and too expensive baring that.

I could use multipower with 40 str TK and flight # 1, but my understanding of the rules has a quirk. Use flight #1 on 200 kg animate person. Ok in rules by my reading. Knock the person out and he becomes inanimate and you have to drop him. He weighs too much. Whaaa?

 

Another way is to use 40 str TK with a homemade advantage “cannot break free using strength”.(in my case the power would also have -1/4 – not to squeeze or pin limbs) I am thinking +1. However, I would like to use existing rules. Am I missing or misunderstanding something? Any help would be appreciated and repped if I can and I like it enough

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Flight UAA seems right to me. Expensive? Sure. But also very powerful. Levitate any character without flight and he's more or less helpless. Would you expect that to be cheap?

[Comic]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Seems cheap to me.

 

In effect, it's Tk AVLD, Does Body, which at least is +2.5

 

True, 'resisting Tk' by STR is not a defense, but it's the common way to resist Tk grabs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Any sort of Movement UAA is extremely powerful, and as an aside is not something I allow at all any longer unless it is very limited and very specific in what it can do and how it can be resisted.

[hfergus]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

You all have a valid points about it being very expensive, as I thought it over and come up with ways to abuse what I was trying to do. The Tk with the advantage I mentions describes it better, but should be at least +2. You are right. But am I wrong that you can lift a 200kg person with normal flight usable as attack, and if you knock him out or kill him, they are now inanimate and you have to drop them as they are too heavy? Either I am not reading this right or it does not make sense. I do understand why, as inanimate objects cannot resist and they could be turned into dropped weapons, if not used as battering rams. Still, it causes me to go "whaaat?!?!".

[Vondy]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Nnd?

[Comic]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Not conscious = not resisting.

 

You can treat non-resisting targets as if they were inanimate.

 

Except for the part where they take Stun damage, and the part where they die if they take enough Body damage.

[Marcus]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Maybe buy Psychokinesis (BoECV TK), with the 'works vs. Ego, not STR' from Mental Paralysis?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

I've often wondered about this.

 

First off I've never really understood the thing about mass limits: why should there be any difference between lifting a character and lifting a boulder, if they both weigh 1000kg?

 

Something like UAA Flight is quite useful for gravity reversal where mass should be irrelevant - but of course mass isn't irrelevant for inanimate objects, which makes it a whole lot less useful for modeling such an effect.

 

Second, I've never quite got my head round why strength should be the 'defence' to TK - there are so many possible sfx for TK and only a small number of them would allow STR as a logical defence.

 

What I'd like to see is a new advantage for TK, something like this:

 

Immaterial TK: this form of TK does not have a physical component that you can apply force against at all, so trying to break free from Immaterial TK with STR is usually pointless. The sole exception is where you are able to use the STR against a fixed object rather than against the TK itself. If you can anchor yourself and the person using TK tries to pull you away from the anchor, make a STR v STR roll and if you win the TK 'slips' and has to be re-applied.

 

You can always escape from Immaterial TK using flight or teleportation, or becoming desolid (unless the Immaterial TK has an appropriate advantage), and the GM may allow other types of escape mechanism, depending on sfx (for instance if the sfx is that you are statically charged to repel you from other surfaces then an EMP, or the use of your own electricity powers might allow you with or without a roll against the STR of the TK). Note that anything that moves the character can be used as a defence, including applying KB.

 

As Immaterial TK is really a sort of AVLD but with known defences it is a +1/2 advantage (but in a game where powers that might be used to escape are rare, the GM might make it +1).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Well, first a Blue Whale weighs in excess of 100tons. You need at least a 60STR, no more than 65STR. We'll call it 64 since that makes math easy and leaves points to move the object with (remember you can only move an object with TK as many inches/phase as you can 'running throw' it). TK: 96pts.

 

OK, now we want to remove the ability to resist it with STR. Sounds like a variation on BOECV or NND. Both are a +1 at their base, so we'll call it a wash and say "Resisted With Flight or TK" at +1. New Active Cost: 192.

 

Assuming you have 3STR left to move that whale, that's 2"/Phase.

 

Flight: 2" (4AP)

UAA +1; (since we're lifting a living creature you don't need the mass-X - and here I agree completely with Sean, this living/non-living distinction is utterly mind numbing)

Ranged; Indirect (+3/4)

 

For 11 pts we can move any living object 2"/Phase.

For 192 pts we can move any object up to ~140Tons around (2"/Phase for that 140Tons).

 

Add on an Inanimate Adder to the Flight: +1 3/4 (x128 Mass) and it costs you 22 Points. Of course the TK allows you to move any object weighing less that 140tons more Inches/Phase.

 

So now you need to start stacking on Flight with a Limition based on the Running Throw/Weight Ratio of your "maximum possible lift" and a Limitation for that come to think of it. (a max of about 48"/Phase here, so another 44" of Flight costs 242 Active Points)

 

Flight might still come out cheaper depending on what value you place the Limitations that it can only lift X Weight and move Y Inches based on that.

 

Huh. I got no real thoughts on this as a whole though. (and if my math is off it's because I didn't check it through Hero Designer.)

[Maur]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Yeah, TK being resisted by STR really doesn't seem to make much sense except when a person is trying to "break out" of a grab (e.g. the TKer uses it to pin the persons arms down, and the grabbed person fights to get his arms out), but if I grab a foot with TK and pull you up into the air, what exactly are you breaking free from?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Yeah' date=' TK being resisted by STR really doesn't seem to make much sense except when a person is trying to "break out" of a grab (e.g. the TKer uses it to pin the persons arms down, and the grabbed person fights to get his arms out), but if I grab a foot with TK and pull you up into the air, what exactly are you breaking free from?[/quote']

 

Remember that by ALL powers that cost END are visible by default in HERO.

 

At its base TK is going to have a visible effect that connects what is being targeted with the source of the power (a good example of this is Green Lantern). Adding IPE to the build negates the visibility but not the ability to resist being grabbed with STR.

 

re: being grabbed by 1 foot

 

Instead of TK let's say this is done by a character like Marvel's Giant Man to the Hulk. The Hulk will reach with his hands down to his foot (which we'll assume are above his head) and pry appart the "giant fingers" holding him.

 

Unless the telekinetic sfx is built with a form of NND or the afformentioned Flight UAA construct a character grabbed with it CAN resist it with his own STR.

 

from:

page 230 ■ Character Creation:

Powers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

Grabs And Other Telekinetic Attacks

A Telekinetic Grab works just like a normal Grab: it requires an Attack Roll; it imposes a -1 OCV, -2 DCV modifier on the character’s Attack Roll; it affects two limbs; victims try to escape from the Grab using their STR (including any bonuses, such as from Martial Escape; this method applies even if the victim’s held up in the air or the like); the character can use it to Squeeze or Th row the Grabbed person; it reduces the Grabbed person’s DCV. However, it does not reduce the Telekinetic’s DCV or his OCV to attack characters other than the Grabbed character the way a normal Grab does. (See Grab, page 387-88.)

[Comic]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

So much cheaper if it's Leaping UAO, by the way.

 

Sure, doesn't affect airborn or swimming targets, but since you're looking for something that isn't resisted by STR, you're mostly targeting things with high STR anyway.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

So much cheaper if it's Leaping UAO, by the way.

 

Sure, doesn't affect airborn or swimming targets, but since you're looking for something that isn't resisted by STR, you're mostly targeting things with high STR anyway.

 

Actually, that combo is forbidden.

 

from:

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One

POWERS

page 197

 

Usable On Others: Characters cannot buy Leaping

Usable As Attack; that effect requires Telekinesis.

[hfergus]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

I've often wondered about this.

 

First off I've never really understood the thing about mass limits: why should there be any difference between lifting a character and lifting a boulder, if they both weigh 1000kg?

 

Something like UAA Flight is quite useful for gravity reversal where mass should be irrelevant - but of course mass isn't irrelevant for inanimate objects, which makes it a whole lot less useful for modeling such an effect.

 

Second, I've never quite got my head round why strength should be the 'defence' to TK - there are so many possible sfx for TK and only a small number of them would allow STR as a logical defence.

 

What I'd like to see is a new advantage for TK, something like this:

 

Immaterial TK: this form of TK does not have a physical component that you can apply force against at all, so trying to break free from Immaterial TK with STR is usually pointless. The sole exception is where you are able to use the STR against a fixed object rather than against the TK itself. If you can anchor yourself and the person using TK tries to pull you away from the anchor, make a STR v STR roll and if you win the TK 'slips' and has to be re-applied.

 

You can always escape from Immaterial TK using flight or teleportation, or becoming desolid (unless the Immaterial TK has an appropriate advantage), and the GM may allow other types of escape mechanism, depending on sfx (for instance if the sfx is that you are statically charged to repel you from other surfaces then an EMP, or the use of your own electricity powers might allow you with or without a roll against the STR of the TK). Note that anything that moves the character can be used as a defence, including applying KB.

 

As Immaterial TK is really a sort of AVLD but with known defences it is a +1/2 advantage (but in a game where powers that might be used to escape are rare, the GM might make it +1).

This is what I was going for. By the way, Tk nnd is supposedly illegal. Even if not, I'd like a slam to do body and that would another +1 "does body" limitation. Not sure about BOECV, but since tk is "strength at range" this also may be illegal. I might take this to Steve Long for a ruling.

[Vondy]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

This is what I was going for. By the way' date=' Tk nnd is supposedly illegal. Even if not, I'd like a slam to do body and that would another +1 "does body" limitation. Not sure about BOECV, but since tk is "strength at range" this also may be illegal. I might take this to Steve Long for a ruling.[/quote']

 

Why not make a ruling for yourself? That's what GMs are for.

 

And, beyond that, since an NND must have a defense defined I don't see how its different than X Strength with NND [of which there are numerous published examples] aside from the fact that it has Range slapped on.

 

Also, with BOECV, you could just convert the TK Strength to a characteristic roll and have it be decided by an opposed Strength vs. Ego roll. Most characters won't have the ego to get out. So, a 60 ST TK would be 21- vs. whatever their Ego roll was.

 

As a GM I'd be worried about both constructs without having a chat with the player in advance, but the cost of these constructs is a constraint in of itself, and I don't think the system to should hard code the option out. That's what GMs are for - making rulings.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

And' date=' beyond that, since an NND must have a defense defined I don't see how its different than X Strength with NND [of which there are numerous published examples'] aside from the fact that it has Range slapped on.

 

Also, with BOECV, you could just convert the TK Strength to a characteristic roll and have it be decided by an opposed Strength vs. Ego roll. Most characters won't have the ego to get out. So, a 60 ST TK would be 21- vs. whatever their Ego roll was.

 

STR NND is unaffected by PD, but can't Grab without an opposed STR roll. The poster wants the opposite, I think. PD still applies, but no opposed STR roll. I think a similar approach to converting Entangle to Mental Paralysis would be a reasonable approach, but it is more powerful than a +1 advantage would indicate. Mental paralysis has a similar effect, and even at its total, well above +1, is viewed as overpowered by many posters to these Boards. But the GM needs to decide whether that will be overpowered in his game, just as you say.

[Comic]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

Actually, that combo is forbidden.

 

from:

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One

POWERS

page 197

And a good thing it is!

 

Swinging UAA is bad enough.

 

But seriously, if you can see why buying "Normal Vision, UAA" shouldn't try to replace Images/Flash/Darkness, then it must be clear why buying any movement UAA is so suspect.

 

It's easy to overlook how powerful an effect putting a character a few inches other than the place they want to be is, even if you've seen it happen time and time again.

 

It's hard to find a balanced price for this effect when the defense is something other than the common one, STR.

 

As a general guideline, I feel looking for the core attack for moving someone else at range should start with Telekinesis, because there is a defined mechanic for this attack that is designed to be used as an attack.

 

Likewise, looking for an Advantage that works for 'resisted by other than STR' seems to match most closely something like AVLD Does Body (+2.5), though I have the sense that this may be too cheap for what is obtained. I'd allow at most one such power per character, for example, to keep them from switching around until they find a quality their target has little resistance in. I'd also allow substituting PRE or INT or DEX for EGO, for example, since there are alternate means for breaking out of Grabs than pure STR (Contortion/Double Jointed/Desolid/Shrinking/Growth/Teleport) which also, I imagine, won't be useful if STR is no longer useful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

STR NND is unaffected by PD' date=' but can't Grab without an opposed STR roll. The poster wants the opposite, I think. PD still applies, but no opposed STR roll. I think a similar approach to converting Entangle to Mental Paralysis would be a reasonable approach, but it is more powerful than a +1 advantage would indicate. Mental paralysis has a similar effect, and even at its total, well above +1, is viewed as overpowered by many posters to these Boards. But the GM needs to decide whether that will be overpowered in his game, just as you say.[/quote']

 

S'right.

 

Let us work up an example of a sort of NND/AVLD TK, but aplying the 'limited defence' to the grab aspect rather than damage:

 

60 points in TK gets you 40 STR.

 

A +1 advantage for 'immaterial TK' (ITK, distinguishing it from NND, which only affects damage) gets you 20 STR. 20 STR is going to be pretty easy to break free from by anyone with flight - in a 60 AP cap game, more than 10" of flight would be common.

 

As a +1/2 advantage you get the rather freaky 26 STR under the cap.

 

Now given that you can break free if you have any movement power OTHER than running I'd make it +1/2, personally, or +1 in a game where other modes of movement are rare.

 

I don't think it is worth more than that in practice.

 

NB you could still use the ITK to do smashing damage, which would apply to defences normally unless you bought NND/AVLD as well.

 

Assuming you buy NND and ITK (at +1/2) then you get 24 active points under a 60 point cap, or 16 STR. Sounds reasonable. Or 12 STR with 'Does Body'.

 

Lordy. We've just come up with Darth Vader TK.

 

Cool.

[hfergus]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

 

 

Lordy. We've just come up with Darth Vader TK.

 

Cool.

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

 

I had to do that.

 

I am going to do my own advantage, I just wanted to see if there was a good way to do it with the rules as is. Thanks a bunch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

 

...................

 

Stick around - that's not all you'll find disturbing abuot me

[nexus]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

One of the character write ups in "The Book of the Destroyer" at least implies that NND on Telekinesis does eliminate the opportunity to use Strength to resist. I've posted a Q on the FAQ for comment by Steve Long.

[Harrkonen]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

The idea of using Flight UAA is a tempting idea but one also needs to remember it has the same fault as Teleportation UAA has; you can't cause damage with it, True you can effectively "push" someone with Flight uaa over a ledge and have them fall to their 30d6 impending doom but that's alot circumstance you have to rely on for said thing. I've run into this problem myself recently actually in a StarWars campaign I run, in it things that don't use the Force are effectively unable to resist it, of course I had to figure out a way to make the Push and other things that use TK (in their basic form. trust me we've mulled this over and over and over) And in the end the simplest way to do things with the lowest use of active points was to set up an actual house rule for it.

I know this really doesn't help you out too much but it's what we've settled on

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

The idea of using Flight UAA is a tempting idea but one also needs to remember it has the same fault as Teleportation UAA has; you can't cause damage with it, True you can effectively "push" someone with Flight uaa over a ledge and have them fall to their 30d6 impending doom but that's alot circumstance you have to rely on for said thing. I've run into this problem myself recently actually in a StarWars campaign I run, in it things that don't use the Force are effectively unable to resist it, of course I had to figure out a way to make the Push and other things that use TK (in their basic form. trust me we've mulled this over and over and over) And in the end the simplest way to do things with the lowest use of active points was to set up an actual house rule for it.

I know this really doesn't help you out too much but it's what we've settled on

 

I'd certainly allow damage to be done with Flight UAA (as an involuntary 0 STR move through, damage halved if you actually break through what you hit). Probably not often going to actually cause much damage that way, but I'd allow it.

[Harrkonen]

Re: Tk with no strength defense

 

I'd certainly allow damage to be done with Flight UAA (as an involuntary 0 STR move through' date=' damage halved if you actually break through what you hit). Probably not often going to actually cause much damage that way, but I'd allow it.[/quote']

 

Yeah it's a concept to do low damage with it but honestly if in the setting you have the ability to conjure said power then it's a more then likely probability that the enemy you're tossing about can take any of this damage.

We've often found that the Flight UAA works great as a cheap way to put someone in a entangle that they really can't escape.

 

I.E. Grond attacks, I use Flight UAA 2" and keep him above the ground with this. He can't move since he doesn't have flight and keeps him out of trouble until authorities who CAN deal with him arrive.