Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

[azato]

As I contemplate doing SF conversion I came to a realizaton. Maybe I am just naive, maybe a bit slow but... The needler is on the "open market" just as any other weapon. But consider this: they do more damage than a single shot from a pistol (or rifle) and yet are complety ineffective against albedo. It appears that it is intended to do the maximum amount of damage (multiple barbed flechettes) versus civilian targets. If this were a real weapon, what "legitimate" use would this have? I would think this would be an outlawed weapon. Thoughts?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

*Safe weapon for hunting. Everybody goes out in the suits that stop it - if accidentally shoot fellow hunter, no harm done.

 

*For ordinary self-defense use, I'd think that the tranq-needles would generally be used.

[Vulcan]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

I'm not too familiar with SF, but it would seem to me that a needler would be pretty ineffective against heavy armors... you know, the types of armor the police and military would use...

[Barton]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

If I remember correctly it was used with tranq drugs, so non-letal, but I might be wrong about that

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

There are two options - one that has barbed needles (not nice) and those that have tranquilizers. The tranqs still do damage, but not as much.

 

The word "needler" is a think a misnomer. It shoots a bunch of barbed wire through the target's body. A gut shot would be horrendous.

 

Against armor it would have little or no effect. There is no armor as such in SF, but probably should get a reduced penetration modifier in hero.

[Old Man]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Wasn't the needler/albedo relationship similar to the laser/reflec one? Or am I confusing with Traveller? Anyway given that you can dial up a laser pistol to the point where it is an effective anti-vehicle weapon, I'd say the needler ethics question is sorta moot.

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Wasn't the needler/albedo relationship similar to the laser/reflec one? Or am I confusing with Traveller? Anyway given that you can dial up a laser pistol to the point where it is an effective anti-vehicle weapon' date=' I'd say the needler ethics question is sorta moot.[/quote']

 

 

Yes, you are correct about the relationship (mostly). I am not speaking ethically as far as game balance. I am just musing about a weapon whose sole purpose seems to be to take out civilians.

 

Let's just assume that it isn't deemed unethical, then it would be available like any other weapon.

 

Lets say the "knock out" darts (which still cause damage) are ok, but perhaps they are limited to police.

 

But if they are deemed unethical by society, then perhaps they are available on the black market and possession of one, (in society) would guarantee jail/prison time.

 

I am not trying to make a point, for some reason I have this thought going in my head and this is a form of therapy. So if I seem "off center" on this, just ignore me.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Star Frontiers just had a frontier-wide overview of what was available, without going much into legalities. I would expect that in most civilized areas most of those weapons are not legal. I mean, machine guns were part of the Alpha Dawn weapons list. How could any city allow just anyone who could scrape up the money to walk around town with a high-caliber automatic weapon?

 

The points made above about using needlers for hunting are great, but no one would be hunting with them in an urban area. Tranquilizer rounds might be allowed for self-defense purposes, but the barbed kind are going to be regulated in populated areas.

[Spence]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Slight error. The needler cannot penetrate skeinsuits or inertia screens. Not albedo suits which protect against lasers.

 

Also you are assuming that the barbed dart is designed specifically to be deadlier against unprotected targets. If this was the reasoning I would expect the anesthesia darts also used by the needle gun would never have been developed. Since a skeinsuit is described in the rulebook as being made of "light ballistic cloth" it really makes be doubt it was developed as a serious damage weapon in a conventional sense.

 

The pistol and rifle are not pistols and rifles as we define them. The rulebook describes them as "an automatic pistol is a refined version of a submachine gun". The pistol does not do 1D10. It does 1d10/5d10. It fires either a burst or up to 3 single per attack. A burst does 5D10, each one of the 3 singles does 1d10 per. This damage can be reduced by skeinsuits and inertia screens. This makes the needle pistol on the low end of the damage chart for ranged weapons.

 

Taking all this together and it makes perfect sense that needler guns are popular. Fire a regular pistol/rifle or laser weapon inside a starship and you could destroy something important. If you ever had a chance o go aboard a ship (real world water type, but not boats), most equipment racks and bays are fairly stout. A burst of needle most likely wouldn't penetrate most partitions, consoles or bulkheads.

 

To me the needle gun looks like a weapons designed to allow free us aboard ships without fear of committing suicide by destroying the life support computer

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Thanks for the correction regarding skein/albedo, I lost my mind.

 

A single shot of a pistol does 1d10

A single burst (the only way it fires) of a needler (non-anesthesia) kind do 2d10.

 

If we use this paradigm, needlers are twice a lethal as a single shot of a pistol. A pistol converts to 1d6K and it would follow that a needler would be 2d6K.

 

The problem however is in converting the lethality of weapons since the SF system was (is) very non lethal in its set up.

----------------------------------------------------------

I digress but...

 

Lets say the average stat for a person is 50. It would take and average of almost 10 shots of a single shot pistol to be fatal.

 

Lets say, for hero the average stat for a person is 10, it takes an average 3 shots to kill.

 

The question then is how to handle weapon conversion especially since laser pistols can be cranked to 10D10 which would "could" convert to 10d6!

 

I think going strictly by using a pistol as the baseline is wrong and there is a need for some reality and some game balance and this will be for another thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------

End of digression -

 

I agree that the needler makes sense for taking care of 'business" inside places like ships.

 

 

Slight error. The needler cannot penetrate skeinsuits or inertia screens. Not albedo suits which protect against lasers.

 

Also you are assuming that the barbed dart is designed specifically to be deadlier against unprotected targets. If this was the reasoning I would expect the anesthesia darts also used by the needle gun would never have been developed. Since a skeinsuit is described in the rulebook as being made of "light ballistic cloth" it really makes be doubt it was developed as a serious damage weapon in a conventional sense.

 

The pistol and rifle are not pistols and rifles as we define them. The rulebook describes them as "an automatic pistol is a refined version of a submachine gun". The pistol does not do 1D10. It does 1d10/5d10. It fires either a burst or up to 3 single per attack. A burst does 5D10, each one of the 3 singles does 1d10 per. This damage can be reduced by skeinsuits and inertia screens. This makes the needle pistol on the low end of the damage chart for ranged weapons.

 

Taking all this together and it makes perfect sense that needler guns are popular. Fire a regular pistol/rifle or laser weapon inside a starship and you could destroy something important. If you ever had a chance o go aboard a ship (real world water type, but not boats), most equipment racks and bays are fairly stout. A burst of needle most likely wouldn't penetrate most partitions, consoles or bulkheads.

 

To me the needle gun looks like a weapons designed to allow free us aboard ships without fear of committing suicide by destroying the life support computer

[Old Man]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Yes' date=' you are correct about the relationship (mostly). I am not speaking ethically as far as game balance. I am just musing about a weapon whose sole purpose seems to be to take out civilians. [/quote']

 

My point was that the laser is also vastly more effective at taking out civilians than albedo-armored goons.

 

To be honest, I never liked the hit point system in Star Frontiers. When you have zero chance of dying from a pistol hit (of whatever type), it's really hard to inject tension into combat, at least at first. I recommend that you stat the weapons based on special effect and the game balance that you want. Myself, I'd call the needler either a small RKA with reduced pen, or a really small RKA with autofire, either of which will suck against small amounts of resistant defense, but will happily shred civilians.

[Spence]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

My point was that the laser is also vastly more effective at taking out civilians than albedo-armored goons.

 

To be honest, I never liked the hit point system in Star Frontiers. When you have zero chance of dying from a pistol hit (of whatever type), it's really hard to inject tension into combat, at least at first. I recommend that you stat the weapons based on special effect and the game balance that you want. Myself, I'd call the needler either a small RKA with reduced pen, or a really small RKA with autofire, either of which will suck against small amounts of resistant defense, but will happily shred civilians.

 

 

I still think the needler is less of a threat in direct comparison to other weapons in the game. Any of the ranged weapons on the list will shred/kill exposed civilians. But only the needler is 100% negated when it comes upon virtually anything with resistance.

 

If you shot at me with a gun or laser and I hide behind the little kiosk at the mall I’m basically toast, especially on auto fire. If I hide in the same place and you unload with a needler I am completely safe.

 

Plus the needler actually has a non-lethal load.

 

And yes. I agree the combat system left much to be desired.....

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

The flip side was pretty messed up too. If your buddy got shot 9 times, and was at death's door, you could do an hour or so of surgery and he'd be back in top form.

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

The thinking came when I started doing the conversion. As far as the SF games, yeah, very mild damage. Somebody on the forums did a conversion and I plan to take that with some modifications except modify the anesthetic portion.

 

 

I still think the needler is less of a threat in direct comparison to other weapons in the game. Any of the ranged weapons on the list will shred/kill exposed civilians. But only the needler is 100% negated when it comes upon virtually anything with resistance.

 

If you shot at me with a gun or laser and I hide behind the little kiosk at the mall I’m basically toast, especially on auto fire. If I hide in the same place and you unload with a needler I am completely safe.

 

Plus the needler actually has a non-lethal load.

 

And yes. I agree the combat system left much to be desired.....

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

So, then, what does SF have going for it?:

1. Cool aliens.

2. Fun set of modules

3. An interesting rock/paper/scissors regarding defense

4. Some fun weapons

 

But the rest leavs a bit to be desired!

 

The flip side was pretty messed up too. If your buddy got shot 9 times' date=' and was at death's door, you could do an hour or so of surgery and he'd be back in top form.[/quote']

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

So' date=' then, what does SF have going for it?:[/quote']A setting that is detailed enough to build a campaign on, yet flexible enough to take that campaign in virtually any direction you like. Most of the leg work for generating the solar systems, planets and moons is already done. There are numerous write-ups of corporate entities and other organizations. Unless this is the bread and butter of your gaming experience, I say SF has a lot to offer.

 

If you are converting SF over to HERO, I suggest taking a look at Alien Wars or Terran Empire or even Star HERO for damages that fit into the HERO rules.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

SF has a strong nostalgia factor for a lot of us. The system has its drawbacks, but Heroizing it eliminates that issue.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

SF has a strong nostalgia factor for a lot of us. The system has its drawbacks' date=' but Heroizing it eliminates that issue.[/quote']And what he said.

[The Weapon]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Yes, you are correct about the relationship (mostly). I am not speaking ethically as far as game balance. I am just musing about a weapon whose sole purpose seems to be to take out civilians.

 

Well it's designed to take out unarmored targets, just like legal guns in the US. A gun designed to take out armored targets is way too useful against the police and military for it to be tolerated in most polities. Of course depending on how effective attempts to limit access to armor is they may have to let you have effective anti-armor weapons.

Sure you can use this weapon to efficiently murder civilians, but only until the cops turn up, when you die. THe cops would rather have that than a weapon where you murder the civilians inefficiently then efficiently murder them when they turn up.

 

Let's just assume that it isn't deemed unethical, then it would be available like any other weapon.

 

Lets say the "knock out" darts (which still cause damage) are ok, but perhaps they are limited to police.

 

But if they are deemed unethical by society, then perhaps they are available on the black market and possession of one, (in society) would guarantee jail/prison time.

 

I am not trying to make a point, for some reason I have this thought going in my head and this is a form of therapy. So if I seem "off center" on this, just ignore me.

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Yeah, I may be carrying in this a bit far since I am thinking of this being a real weapon in today's world. It is a weapon that shoots a cluster of (i believe) ten barbed wires. I imagine that it would do an incredible amount of internal damage (as the barbs slash), be hard to remove (small puncture wound holes and wires that travel in a non-linear fashion) and would be relatively clean (no big mess of blood-a positive) . Even one of those wires zipping through you guts is horrible to think about. Every would probably require more cutting and more intensive surgery than a normal bullet.

 

 

 

I do appreciate everybody's counter-points. I figure I don't convince anybody then I may just say "it is just a game" and not worry about it.

 

 

 

 

Well it's designed to take out unarmored targets, just like legal guns in the US. A gun designed to take out armored targets is way too useful against the police and military for it to be tolerated in most polities. Of course depending on how effective attempts to limit access to armor is they may have to let you have effective anti-armor weapons.

Sure you can use this weapon to efficiently murder civilians, but only until the cops turn up, when you die. THe cops would rather have that than a weapon where you murder the civilians inefficiently then efficiently murder them when they turn up.

[azato]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

Actually, I am robbing from TRAVELER HERO.

 

 

If you are converting SF over to HERO, I suggest taking a look at Alien Wars or Terran Empire or even Star HERO for damages that fit into the HERO rules.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

From the description, it sounds like these weapons would cause grievous wounds, and cause death in most victims, but also as though it would have relatively little stopping power.

[Old Man]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

So, then, what does SF have going for it?:

1. Cool aliens.

2. Fun set of modules

3. An interesting rock/paper/scissors regarding defense

4. Some fun weapons

 

5. One of the few published settings that isn't gritty or even post-apocalyptic. It's one of the more 'fun' settings available in any genre, in fact.

 

 

SF's game system problems to some extent are a logical consequence of the problems all sci-fi games have with respect to lethality and game balance. Even a modern-day setting, with fairly realistic combat, is going to be way too lethal to be much fun.* Especially since there is no magical healing to fall back on--even non impairing wounds will take months to recover from. In the future, weapons will be even more lethal, so how do you arrange things so that the PCs have a prayer of surviving? And how do you reconcile that with a setting full of unarmored, squishy civilians?

 

 

*I once played a modern-day Hero campaign that lasted until about phase 4. Uzis were involved.

[Nyrath]

Re: Star Frontiers: The Ethics of Needlers

 

SF's game system problems to some extent are a logical consequence of the problems all sci-fi games have with respect to lethality and game balance. Even a modern-day setting' date=' with fairly realistic combat, is going to be way too lethal to be much fun.* Especially since there is no magical healing to fall back on--even non impairing wounds will take months to recover from. In the future, weapons will be even more lethal, so how do you arrange things so that the PCs have a prayer of surviving? And how do you reconcile that with a setting full of unarmored, squishy civilians?[/quote']

In SPI's Universe, they attempted to address the lethality issue by having most combat done by remote control combat drones. Naturally the players found this incredibly boring.