Normal Human

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Thinking further about NCM and its impact.

 

How many of us use Elemental Control?

 

How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?

 

Why can't NCM be considered in the same category? The only problem with it, since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people. It is a disadvantage rather than a cost reduction for concept.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

How many of us use Elemental Control?

 

For many many years, I didn't. I was just resistant to the concept. I do use it now.

 

How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?

 

A number of people do.

 

My personal problem is with including the Elemental Control, but not including Package Deals (I define as Package Deal as something that saves you points if you buy the "bundle." Otherwise they can call it a Package Deal, but I don't see the "deal" to it.)

 

Why can't NCM be considered in the same category?

 

Why would it be?

 

The only problem with it' date=' since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people. [/quote']

 

Really? Take another look at the Florist Friars. No Disadvantage points there.

 

And it is not at all the case that "since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" " - that is simply not so. At its inception it was a rule for Heroic level games like Fantasy Hero and Justice Inc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the idea that NCM applies with the same levels to pixies and ogres, but not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Thinking further about NCM and its impact.

 

How many of us use Elemental Control?

 

How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?

 

Why can't NCM be considered in the same category? The only problem with it, since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people. It is a disadvantage rather than a cost reduction for concept.

 

Why can't I get points for "magic spells cost double" for my brawny fantasy warrior or wily rogue? Or points for "more than two levels with any weapon costs double" for my wizard? These contribute to a nice tight concept/

 

To me, the NCM rules are a means of saying "here are the campaign's ground rules, but you can break them if you pay double". Can I buy a LightSaber in a Middle Earth game if I pay double, or a Magic Spells VPP in a Hard Sci Fi game by paying double?

 

How I can use my points as a player is not a disadvantage or limitation to the character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Normal Human

 

I can see the benefit of taking a perk or paying a cost in some other way, a sort of 'ante' to access abilities that other characters cannot, but I can not really get behind the idea of the 'standard' being a character who is bought with a disadvantage. If you are playing a normal human (and can accurately define that) in a game where that is the norm then I see no point in everyone taking the disadvantage - just play with more free points.

 

If superhuman is the norm, presumably you are choosing to play a character within certain arbitrary limits and I do not see why character concept is a good reason for a disadvantage either. The only characteristic you can not really 'do' with powers is SPEED and you can even buy that as a power if you want. Why should a mentalist with puny body but devastating mind (and an extra +4 SPD only for mental powers) get a free disadvantage?

 

Others may see it differently but it is a needless distraction, to my mind.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I can see the benefit of taking a perk or paying a cost in some other way, a sort of 'ante' to access abilities that other characters cannot, but I can not really get behind the idea of the 'standard' being a character who is bought with a disadvantage. If you are playing a normal human (and can accurately define that) in a game where that is the norm then I see no point in everyone taking the disadvantage - just play with more free points.

 

If superhuman is the norm, presumably you are choosing to play a character within certain arbitrary limits and I do not see why character concept is a good reason for a disadvantage either. The only characteristic you can not really 'do' with powers is SPEED and you can even buy that as a power if you want. Why should a mentalist with puny body but devastating mind (and an extra +4 SPD only for mental powers) get a free disadvantage?

 

Others may see it differently but it is a needless distraction, to my mind.

 

Two free disadvantages. Normal Characteristics and Age.

 

Got to take the latter or you pay extra for EGO!

 

But by taking Age, you both get free points AND save points on EGO and INT!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the idea that NCM applies with the same levels to pixies and ogres, but not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why can't I get points for "magic spells cost double" for my brawny fantasy warrior or wily rogue? Or points for "more than two levels with any weapon costs double" for my wizard? These contribute to a nice tight concept/

 

To me, the NCM rules are a means of saying "here are the campaign's ground rules, but you can break them if you pay double". Can I buy a LightSaber in a Middle Earth game if I pay double, or a Magic Spells VPP in a Hard Sci Fi game by paying double?

 

How I can use my points as a player is not a disadvantage or limitation to the character.

And the use of Frameworks isn't an inherent advantage?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

And the use of Frameworks isn't an inherent advantage?

 

How many points should I get for "frameworks cost double"?

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

Perhaps the point savings one enjoys with Elemental Control suggests that all the Powers are overpriced to begin with?

 

I've seen very few characters who are not built with a Multipower, Elemental Control or VPP.

 

I'm not suggesting a change in the rules -- they seem to work well for me -- just sayin'.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

How many points should I get for "frameworks cost double"?

Why do you argue against NCM, but you don't argue against frameworks in general?

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you argue against NCM' date=' but you don't argue against frameworks in general?[/quote']

 

Why do you argue in nonsequitors?

 

That's like asking why do you argue against COM but not against Skill Enhancers?

 

Why do you argue against Variable Power Pools but not against Martial Arts?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Why do you argue against pineapples but not palindromedaries?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why do you argue against NCM' date=' but you don't argue against frameworks in general?[/quote']

 

Why do you argue in nonsequitors?

 

That's like asking why do you argue against COM but not against Skill Enhancers?

 

Why do you argue against Variable Power Pools but not against Martial Arts?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Why do you argue against pineapples but not palindromedaries?

 

As Lucius points out, NCM is not a framework. What purpose does NCM serve?

 

Does it provide a "normal human being" template? Clearly not, as Lucius' builds clearly show. How is a character who can fly, generate beams of heat vision, breathe underwater or in space and generate a force field over his rocky skin (Damage Resistancde or Armor) any more a "normal human" than a character with a 40 STR, 26 DEX and 25 PD and ED?

 

Does it provide a cost reduction in exchange for limiting factors? A Multipower provides a point break to have several different powers which cannot be used together. A VPP sets a cost for allowing an infinite array of different powers which cannot be used together. An EC requires a single SFX (making those abilities that only work against a single SFX quite nasty - how well does Human Torch operate underwater?), links the powers to be drained together, and restricts the ability to use them together (no MPA with multiple attack powers in an EC). NCM just says you pay double for certain purchases. And you can avoid many of those by making those purchases "characteristics as powers" instead of just characteristics.

 

Does it provide new options? Not really. It gives you a disadvantage for taking away some options. If that's a useful mechanic, why doesn't it apply more broadly and allow for:

 

- impact on other purchases - such as characteristics over 30, or mental powers, or frameworks?

- impact other than doubled cost, such as 50% greater cost, or triple cost, or complete inability to spend points on those abilities?

 

So I turn the question back to you. Why aren't YOU arguing for the broadening of the "Restricted Use of Character Points" disadvantage to go beyond the very few "characteristics above X cost double" examples presently provided by NCM?

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

I see NCM not as a disadvantage, but as a set-cost saving (20 points), similar to the power cost reduction for being stuck in a framework. Even at that, the frameworks get a far greater discount overall.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Normal Human

 

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do' date=' should you all have a Disadvantage?[/quote']

 

Physical Limitation: Lacks a Palindromedary (Uncommon, Slightly Limiting) - 5 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Physical Limitation: Lacks a Palindromedary (Uncommon' date=' Slightly Limiting) - 5 points [/quote']

 

That should be worth at least 10 - after all, "Palindromedaries cost Double" needs to be worth 5.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

First thing, stop thinking of it as a disadvantage...

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

First thing' date=' stop thinking of it as a disadvantage...[/quote']

 

Well, it's possible to divide it into two different issues.

 

Originally it wasn't a Disadvantage, it was a default rule for "heroic" level games. Do you mean to defend that? Because I think it's plain that that's not a very good idea either.

 

Then it was shoehorned into superheroic games as a Disadvantage. Since you're saying "don't think of it as a disadvantage" I assume you don't want to talk about it as it exists in superhero games.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You can call it a palindromedary if you want to, but that doesn't mean I'll put it in a tagline.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Ok. Basic argument seems to be "points for nothing".

 

Which can also be directly levied against the "discount" cost for Multi-powers and Elemental Controls.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Ok. Basic argument seems to be "points for nothing".

 

Which can also be directly levied against the "discount" cost for Multi-powers and Elemental Controls.

 

Try again.

 

If that were the only argument, no one would have a problem with it in heroic games, and there would be no Florist Friars. But yes, "points for nothing" is part of the argument on the superhero side.

 

So to address what I hear you saying here:

 

First of all, Normal Characteristic Maxima isn't a framework. If anything, it's the opposite of a framework.

 

Multipower and Elemental Control does not get you "points for nothing." What they do is, after an initial investment (so to speak) make certain purchases much less expensive by steeply discounting them. And in the case of Multipower at least it's not "for nothing."

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima does the opposite - it makes certain things more expensive, namely Characteristics. And in a system like Hero there is no way to do that without getting some strange and wonky effects.

 

In fact, if you made it a "hard cap" - not a double cost - you would succesfuly eliminate Florist Friars but it wouldn't even slow down ironically named killer robots. We've still got three loopholes big enough for a Normal Human to fly through, and if you close off all three of them, guess what? you get something else very weird. You get the problems the loopholes are there to prevent. You get a barbarian fighter with STR 20 putting on the Girdle of Giant STR and finding his STR is enhanced by - Zero. You get the martial artist with DEX 20 and SPD 4 trying the Super Soldier Serum and finding his combat capabilities improved by a factor of - Zero. You get....well, hopefully what you get now is the idea. There IS no way to make Normal Characteristic Maxima work that doesn't lead to some kind of absurdity.

 

 

I think the real question is, what's it good for? It took me a while to come around to this position, but I've never seen a viable argument against it - it's good for nothing. It's like the Flintstones Car, it looks useful but it doesn't do anything for you that could not be more easily done otherwise.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Normal Palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Try again.

 

If that were the only argument, no one would have a problem with it in heroic games, and there would be no Florist Friars. But yes, "points for nothing" is part of the argument on the superhero side.

 

So to address what I hear you saying here:

 

First of all, Normal Characteristic Maxima isn't a framework. If anything, it's the opposite of a framework.

 

Multipower and Elemental Control does not get you "points for nothing." What they do is, after an initial investment (so to speak) make certain purchases much less expensive by steeply discounting them. And in the case of Multipower at least it's not "for nothing."

 

To add to Lucius' point, we should also eliminate those skill enhancers that let you take a point off each purchase of a type of skill. Clearly, the Scientist (subtract 1 point from all Science skill purchases for 3 points) Skill Enhancer won't be taken by anyone with less than three science skills.

 

Frameworks, and skill enhancers, do one of two things (often both in combination). They reduce cost for limits on access to the abilities (multipower and VPP especially, EC to a much lesser effect). And they give a discount for purchases within a specific SFX (EC obviously; skill enhancers perhaps less obviously).

 

There is no "SFX" supported by NCM. Certainly not "normal human", as the Florist Friars and Killer Robots demonstrate. I can fit most mentalists and many energy projectors into NCM without a lot of work - how "Normal" are they?

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima does the opposite - it makes certain things more expensive, namely Characteristics. And in a system like Hero there is no way to do that without getting some strange and wonky effects.

 

In fact, if you made it a "hard cap" - not a double cost - you would succesfuly eliminate Florist Friars but it wouldn't even slow down ironically named killer robots. We've still got three loopholes big enough for a Normal Human to fly through, and if you close off all three of them, guess what? you get something else very weird. You get the problems the loopholes are there to prevent. You get a barbarian fighter with STR 20 putting on the Girdle of Giant STR and finding his STR is enhanced by - Zero. You get the martial artist with DEX 20 and SPD 4 trying the Super Soldier Serum and finding his combat capabilities improved by a factor of - Zero. You get....well, hopefully what you get now is the idea. There IS no way to make Normal Characteristic Maxima work that doesn't lead to some kind of absurdity.

 

Of course, what we get now is easy workarounds. You want a Hero with a 40 STR? That's 50 points. Oh, he gets 20 of that 40 "only if he never willingly gets his hair cut" (-0)? That makes it a power, so you can buy it for 30. Or it's IIF Girdle of Giant Strength, so you reduce that last 20 STR from a cost of 40 to a cost of 16 for a -1/4 limitation. Funny...that looks more like a -2 1/2 limitation when I run the math.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

To add to Lucius' point,

 

I'd say, going off on a tangent

 

Frameworks, and skill enhancers, do one of two things (often both in combination). They reduce cost for limits on access to the abilities (multipower and VPP especially, EC to a much lesser effect). And they give a discount for purchases within a specific SFX (EC obviously; skill enhancers perhaps less obviously).

 

While there is a case to be made against Elemental Control and Skill Enhancers, it's not a case I'm making; I'm not sure it's even a case I support. I LIKE Skill Enhancers in particular.

 

But the case against Normal Characteristic Maxima is seperate; as you point out

 

There is no "SFX" supported by NCM. Certainly not "normal human", as the Florist Friars and Killer Robots demonstrate. I can fit most mentalists and many energy projectors into NCM without a lot of work - how "Normal" are they?

 

Even better - you can use the Age Disad on those mentalists and gain still more points at the same time as you remove any barrier to the high INT, EGO, and PRE you wanted.

 

Of course, what we get now is easy workarounds. You want a Hero with a 40 STR? That's 50 points. Oh, he gets 20 of that 40 "only if he never willingly gets his hair cut" (-0)? That makes it a power, so you can buy it for 30. Or it's IIF Girdle of Giant Strength, so you reduce that last 20 STR from a cost of 40 to a cost of 16 for a -1/4 limitation. Funny...that looks more like a -2 1/2 limitation when I run the math.

 

Even better, put an Advantage on those "superhuman" 20 pts of STR, like Half End. Now it costs 30 pts rather than 40 - you've made it cheaper by putting an Advantage on it.

 

For the record, I'm not opposed to some kind of "Only Human in a World of Superbeings" Disad - but what we have here is very clearly NOT that.

 

Nor am I opposed to putting reasonable limits on characteristics, nor to the system providing some guidance as to what's "reasonable." But Normal Characteristic Maxima as it currently exists is not reasonable at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary goes off on a tangerine.

[jwpacker]

Re: Normal Human

 

How would y'all feel about NCM being expanded, slightly, to enforce that the character have no powers outside of normal human ken. Talents, sure, perks, why not, foci, up the yin-yang, but nothing that is inherent (as opposed to Inherent +1/4) to them?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

Try again.

 

I think the real question is, what's it good for? It took me a while to come around to this position, but I've never seen a viable argument against it - it's good for nothing. It's like the Flintstones Car, it looks useful but it doesn't do anything for you that could not be more easily done otherwise.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Normal Palindromedary

 

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities. I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

 

That said I could go with a separate disadvantage where you really were a normal human. Gimme more tools not less.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities. I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

 

That said I could go with a separate disadvantage where you really were a normal human. Gimme more tools not less.

 

Welll, we can start with the fact that "not being able to buy superhuman characteristics" isn't what Normal Characteristic Maxima is (see Florist Friars, above, AKA The Anti Munchkins.)

 

But I can see the point of saying "more tools, not less." If your answer to questions like

 

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

 

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

 

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

 

Is mostly "yes" then you are at least being consistent.

 

My next question, though, is: if none of the player characters have characteristics over 20, should any of them get Normal Characteristic Maxima?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants a limitation for Abnormal Characteristic Maxima.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Why does something have to be immediately active in order to limit?

 

If the character falls into human range, where possibilities exist to allow the character higher stats and the player chooses to limit the character with NCM, why not allow it?

 

The characters get experience, and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.