Normal Human

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities.

 

OK, I can say it again. A character who can fly, read minds, spit gouts of flame and shield himself in a screen of force is NOT NORMAL PHYSICALLY, yet he can do all of these things without offending NCM. A character who has an INT of 21 has an exceptional IQ; one with a BOD 21 has exceptional will to live; a COM of 25 is incredibly gorgeous; but all are STILL NORMAL PHYSICALLY and affected by NCM.

 

I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

 

You get points freed up by not buying the characteristics. It's not a Disadvantage. If it is then other restrictions on how you use your points should also be Disadvantages. The following, then, should all be costed out as disadvantages:

 

Cannot buy characteristics above NCM

Characteristics above NCM cost 50% more

Can't buy Powers without Foci or Talent limitations (variants for them costing extra)

Can't buy skill rolls above 15- (or they cost extra)

Power Advantages cost Double (or you can't have them at all)

Magic-Dead Cannot buy spells (certainly limiting in a fantasy game)

Cannot Have Limitations Above -1/2

Limitations Above -1/2 are Halved

Can't have Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities (or their value is halved)

 

Or even

 

Cannot Take Disadvantages Limiting How Points are Spent (except this one)

 

Why does something have to be immediately active in order to limit?

 

So does "Not in a Vacuum" limit in a fantasy game, or Hatred of Orcs disadvantage in a 1920's Untouchables game? Does the value of "Only In Intense Magnetic Fields" vary if you have the ability to create one, or you have DF: Always Radiates Intense Magnetic Field?

 

If the character falls into human range' date=' where possibilities exist to allow the character higher stats and the player chooses to limit the character with NCM, why not allow it?[/quote']

 

If the character is magic-dead, where possibilities exist to allow the character magic spells and the player chooses to limit the character with No Spells Allowed or Spells Cost Double, why not allow it?

 

If the character is a gadgeteer, where possibilities exist to allow the character mutant powers and the player chooses to limit the character with No Mutant Powers or Mutations Cost Double, why not allow it?

 

The characters get experience' date=' and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.[/quote']

 

The character gets experience and wants a 30 DEX, so rather than spend 50 points on DEX, selling back 1 SPD, he either spends 20 on DEX, selling back 1 SPD, and 20 on buying off his Disad, or he takes +10 DEX, No Figured for 20, since Limited characteristics are powers and powers aren't subject to NCM.

 

I liken this to "Cannot Leap". Despite being written up as a physical limitation, the value of the disad is always equal to the cost of the inches of Leaping given up. The value of NCM, by the same logic, should be the extra points paid for characteristics exceeding the NCM level.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

The characters get experience' date=' and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.[/quote']

 

The character is welcome to NCM at the onset. But it's worth 0 points because it in no way disadvantages him at the onset.

 

If it later disadvantages him, it has some value -- not necessarily full value.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

OK, I can say it again. A character who can fly, read minds, spit gouts of flame and shield himself in a screen of force is NOT NORMAL PHYSICALLY, yet he can do all of these things without offending NCM. A character who has an INT of 21 has an exceptional IQ; one with a BOD 21 has exceptional will to live; a COM of 25 is incredibly gorgeous; but all are STILL NORMAL PHYSICALLY and affected by NCM.

 

You get points freed up by not buying the characteristics. It's not a Disadvantage. If it is then other restrictions on how you use your points should also be Disadvantages. The following, then, should all be costed out as disadvantages:

 

.

 

I'll be brief and say the first point hovers between so what and completely irrelevant to the intend of the disadvantage. Both your examples work fine for me and I gave NO PROBLEM WITH THEM. I'm sorry you apparently can't see the superhuman ability but basically normal human physically difference but its there and part of lots of stories in varied genres

 

The 2nd point just doesn't wash.The points freed up just don't make up for not having superhuman stats. You should run a multiverse campaign where heroic and superheroic characters mix and you'll understand better what I mean.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

The 2nd point just doesn't wash.The points freed up just don't make up for not having superhuman stats. You should run a multiverse campaign where heroic and superheroic characters mix and you'll understand better what I mean.

 

I've run several characters with normal human stats in superhuman games, and I've seen several others played. They have not been ineffective or disadvantaged. Even if they were, losing 20 points of other disadvantages would not go far towards leveling the playing field.

 

If the "problem" is that characteristics are too effective, fix characteristics. I have come to believe that the problem is not that characteristics are inherently underpriced, but that the costs of purchasing the same benefits as provided by characteristics in another manner (figured, most notably REC, STUN and END; skill levels; lightning reflexes) are generally overpriced.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

I've run several characters with normal human stats in superhuman games, and I've seen several others played. They have not been ineffective or disadvantaged. Even if they were, losing 20 points of other disadvantages would not go far towards leveling the playing field.

 

If the "problem" is that characteristics are too effective, fix characteristics. I have come to believe that the problem is not that characteristics are inherently underpriced, but that the costs of purchasing the same benefits as provided by characteristics in another manner (figured, most notably REC, STUN and END; skill levels; lightning reflexes) are generally overpriced.

 

 

I think 20 points covers it just fine actually. Anyway I've had my say. I think we're at an impasse. Cheers!

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

The character is welcome to NCM at the onset. But it's worth 0 points because it in no way disadvantages him at the onset.

 

If it later disadvantages him, it has some value -- not necessarily full value.

...except I've already stated, I don't see it as a disadvantage...

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

...except I've already stated' date=' I don't see it as a disadvantage...[/quote']

 

Then we're all good.

 

No disadvantage, no Disadvantage points.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

And if you read back, you'll see where I commented that I see it as more of a concept discount, similar to that granted by frameworks. It just has a set value.

[Utech]

Re: Normal Human

 

And if you read back' date=' you'll see where I commented that I see it as more of a concept discount, similar to that granted by frameworks. It just has a set value.[/quote']

 

Feel free to implement that. While you're at it, you may want to implement a few more:

Normal Powers Maxima

Normal Skills Maxima

Normal Talents Maxima

Normal Advantages Maxima

Normal Disadvantages Maxima

 

All quite reasonable concept discounts. None -- including NCM -- I'd include in the rulebook as a concept discount. The beauty of HERO is that you're encouraged to tinker. Go for it!

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

 

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

I need to remember to return to this thread at the end of the week after at least some people have seen 6E so I can finally talk about it. . .

[Kdansky]

Re: Normal Human

 

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

 

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.

I am looking SO forward to this.

[Yansuf]

Re: Normal Human

 

Perhaps taking NCM should also make the character's Primary Characteristics start at 8 instead of 10 because he's a "Normal Character"?

 

Excellent point!

 

Question for those whose position is NCM shouldn't get points unless the character buys characteristics over normal:

If I make a mentalist with STR=18, Dex=18, Con=18, Int=28 & Ego =23, I get 20 disadvantage points and pay an extra 8+6=14 for my characteristics, for a net gain of 6,

Does this advantage me, or disadvantage me?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

 

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.

 

And if its because its simply been dropped I will disagree. I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit. I'm rather thinking it won't but maybe in the Advanced character Guide.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

And if its because its simply been dropped I will disagree. I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit. I'm rather thinking it won't but maybe in the Advanced character Guide.

 

I agree with part of this. In fact, I'll repeat it louder:

 

I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit.

 

That's something the Hero System hasn't had yet, but could certainly use.

 

Preferably with some permutations and variations that allow a player to define exactly what that means for any given character, and maybe notes on further implementing the concept. For example, rather than a Physical Limitation that restricts the character's STR and powers from doing Knockback by default and increases their END cost, maybe a suggestion that the character's STR and powers should take those Limitations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an inefficiently built palindromedary with severely abnormal psychological issues.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

 

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

[Katherine]

Re: Normal Human

 

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

 

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

 

The PDF is already up for purchase? Cool!

[GamePhil]

Re: Normal Human

 

The PDF is already up for purchase? Cool!

 

Not unless you're at GenCon, more's the pity. But soon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima are now a campaign parameter. You can't take a Complication for being that way unless the GM allows one to be taken (I'd suggest a Physical Limitation).

 

You either have it or you don't.

 

The point different between a Normal Human and a Superhuman is how many points the Superhuman spent on being Superhuman, it's that simply. If the Normal Human leaves their STR at 10 and the superhuman buys it to 50 then the Superhuman has a 40 point price difference in their comparative stat.

 

Complications work mechanically the same as Disadvantages, but are thematically different and should be looked at differently.

 

If being a Normal Human is never going to be a problem to the Normal, then it's not worth points as a Complication.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

 

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

 

Just so I'm clear on this:

 

Would the Florist Friars be possible under the New Regime if I just replace the Age disad with, say, Unluck?

 

From what I hear, the Normal Human is now so much scrap metal (Good!) but the Florist Friars are still going strong (Not So Good!)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary intones that only Steve Long can prevent Florist Friars.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Just so I'm clear on this:

 

Would the Florist Friars be possible under the New Regime if I just replace the Age disad with, say, Unluck?

 

From what I hear, the Normal Human is now so much scrap metal (Good!) but the Florist Friars are still going strong (Not So Good!)

 

I think there would be no difficulty building these characters in 6e, just like there would be no difficulty building them in 5e, and every prior edition.

 

It remains up to the playing group to enforce genre and character concept. One means of doing so would be to state, absolutely, that characters in this game are Normal Humans, and may not have stats above the limits set by the GM accordingly. In other games, the characters might be Legendary Humans, with the game parameters allowing one stat, or two stats, or a group of related stats (as defined in the game parameters themselves) to exceed the Normal Human range, but not exceed the Legendary Range. This might be at normal cost, or could entail an enhanced cost.

 

In other words, it's up to the GM and the players to define the parameters of their game. Allowing a 30 DEX, 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 6 SPD character in a "normal humans" game remains the gamers' problem, not the game's. So does allowing a Fantasy Elf Wizard in a modern mercenaries and spies game.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I think there would be no difficulty building these characters in 6e, just like there would be no difficulty building them in 5e, and every prior edition.

 

It remains up to the playing group to enforce genre and character concept. One means of doing so would be to state, absolutely, that characters in this game are Normal Humans, and may not have stats above the limits set by the GM accordingly. In other games, the characters might be Legendary Humans, with the game parameters allowing one stat, or two stats, or a group of related stats (as defined in the game parameters themselves) to exceed the Normal Human range, but not exceed the Legendary Range. This might be at normal cost, or could entail an enhanced cost.

 

In other words, it's up to the GM and the players to define the parameters of their game. Allowing a 30 DEX, 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 6 SPD character in a "normal humans" game remains the gamers' problem, not the game's. So does allowing a Fantasy Elf Wizard in a modern mercenaries and spies game.

 

 

So we still have the Flintmobile.

 

Do we still have the Defender Exploit?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'll always have a palindromedary, but there's nothing munchkin about that.

[JmOz]

Re: Normal Human

 

the only thing about the so called defender exploit is now that you can't take the disad everyone benefits equaly from it...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

You can no longer take Normal Human Maxima or Aged as Complications - you simply buy your Characteristics/Abilities to the appropriate level to simulate the SFX of "Normal Human" and "Aged."

 

If that's what you're talking about with "flintmobile" and "Defender exploit"

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

You can no longer take Normal Human Maxima or Aged as Complications - you simply buy your Characteristics/Abilities to the appropriate level to simulate the SFX of "Normal Human" and "Aged."

 

If that's what you're talking about with "flintmobile" and "Defender exploit"

 

By "Flintmobile" I'm referring to the use of Normal Characteristic Maxima as a default rule for heroic games, not as a Disadvantage in superheroic games. I explained earlier in the thread why I call that the Flintmobile.

 

I didn't originate the phrase "Defender Exploit" - I first saw it used several years ago online in reference to buying a Characteristic as a Power in order to not have to pay the doubled cost for it. If we still have the Flintmobile, we probably still have the Defender Exploit, and if we don't, we have a situation perhaps even more absurd (as was also pointed out earlier in the thread.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And another inefficiently built palindromedary with severely abnormal psychological issues.