Normal Human

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is a Campaign Setting you can put on any game. It's there as a tool for the GM to set up their game. We're using 25 for the Six top stats in our Star Hero Campaign.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm looking it over now.

 

This is a Normal Characteristics Maxima I could almost live with. I still say you're better off with either a simple hard or soft "cap" but if the system has to have a "limit you can exceed by paying more points" concept, this looks like the way to do it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that, so far, nothing in it prevents florist friars.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

I finally took the plunge and downloaded the update to use Hero Designer for 6th Edition.

 

And here is the first character I made under the new regime!

 

I don't plan to do Brother Orchid, let alone the Normal Human - unless someone really wants me to.

 

 

 

Brother Rose, "The Flying Monk"

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]

13 DEX 6 12- OCV: 5/DCV: 6

13 CON 3 12-

9 BODY -1

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3 - 4

13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6

 

3/5 PD 1 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)

3/5 ED 1 Total: 3/5 ED (0/2 rED)

6 SPD 20 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

8 REC 4

30 END 2

20 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 69

 

Movement:

Running: 7m/14m

Flight: 7m/28m

Leaping: 5m/10m

Swimming: 1m/2m

 

Cost Powers END

40 Sort of the point...: +2 SPD, Cost Doubled for Exceeding 4 (+1) (40 Active Points)

10 The Flying Monk: Flight 7m, x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (24 Active Points); Conditional Power Only if already made a full move Running that phase; can only go noncombat if already used noncombat Running (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (Secret herbal potion; -1/4) 2

3 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow: Resistant Protection (2 PD/2 ED) (6 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/4), Unified Power (The Flying Monk; -1/4) [1 cc]

2 Regeneration (1 BODY per 6 Hours) (6 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2) [6 bc]

Notes: Brother Rose's special herbal potions only seem to work for him, but unfortunately not everyone believes that...

He's Fast!

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/10, Target Falls

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 25 STR for holding on

 

Skills

3 Breakfall 12-

3 Acrobatics 12-

3 Paramedics 12-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

3 Trading 12-

0 Language: English (idiomatic)

2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist 12-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging 12-

2 3) PS: Gardener 12-

2 4) PS: Herbalist 12-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Canon Law 12-

2 2) KS: Flowers 12-

2 3) KS: Herblore 12-

2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes Through the City 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 105

Total Cost: 174

 

100+ Disadvantages

15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid Very Frequently (Slightly Less Powerful than the PC)

15 Psychological Complication: Monastic Vows (Common; Strong)

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Social Complication: Holy Orders Infrequently, Major

10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)

5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preparations Infrequently (As Pow; Mildly Punish)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Watching)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 75

 

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

 

 

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

 

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

 

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

 

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright, Palindromedary Enterprises

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

I completely disagree with those that think NCM is a useless concept or game mechanic.

 

I've routinely used it and enforced all the implications of it in every HERO campaign I've ever run. It helps me keep game balance and a logically consistent campaign world.

 

TBF, I base it on stats 1.25x higher than the book version of NCM.

 

I also use every other mechanic HERO gives me to make my game universe and combat within that universe as realistic or logically consistent as possible.

 

In my 4ed or 5ed Champions campaigns, I figure non-super agents will have Dex of 11-25

(base CV of 4-8, average of 5-6) and the supers will have Dex of 17-31

(base CV of 6-10, average 7-8).

Usually the average agent will be at -3 vs the average super. As individuals, this means they'll hit almost 26% of the time.

When working as trained fire teams of 2-4 per team, agents have a decent chance of being a threat to just about any individual PC super. (NPC demi-gods or the like are a different matter, but that's why the PC heros exist.)

 

SPD is usually 3-7 (average 4-5), with the slowest supers being allowed to have the largest defenses and DC attacks, while the fastest supers have the lowest defenses and DC attacks.

 

I've had everything from SPD 2 to SPD 8 characters and been able to keep things game balanced.

 

It'll be interesting to see what 6ed lack of figured stats does to all of this.

 

EDIT: I also tend to make combat more deadly than what is standard.

It is fairly common for me to balance things so the average defense is 1.5x -1.75x the average attack. Players tend to respect combat in my games.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

Ki-rin, you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Ki-rin' date=' you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as [i']Disadvantage[/i] (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

 

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

 

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

 

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

 

I honor it. And I enforce it.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

 

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

 

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

 

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

 

I honor it. And I enforce it.

 

When a genetically normal superhero is written up in Hero System, the character would lose more points than it would gain from taking NCM.

 

Therefore, unless you want to discourage Batman/Hawkeye types, such characters should not have NCM.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

When a genetically normal superhero is written up in Hero System, the character would lose more points than it would gain from taking NCM.

 

Therefore, unless you want to discourage Batman/Hawkeye types, such characters should not have NCM.

 

 

Sounds like a problem with your write ups to me. Just face it, such sweeping statements do not stand up to all campaigns and there are campaigns like Ki-rin's and mine where it works just fine and is a useful tool.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

 

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

 

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

 

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

 

I honor it. And I enforce it.

 

If I'm going to allow a disadvantage for "This character pays double for characteristics above 20/other limits", then I want to know the disadvantage value for the following:

 

- character pays 50% more for characteristics above the same limit

- character pays triple for characteristics above the same limit

- character can never buy characteristics over the NCM limit

- character pays 50% more, double or triple for characteristics over 30 (adjust characteristics whose usual max isn't 20 pro rata), or may never buy them

- character cannot buy Mental Powers (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy Frameworks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy Ranged Attacks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy powers that could not be achieved by a normal human (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy skill rolls greater than 14- (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- how are these modified if placing a power modifier on the characteristic does not circumvent the restriction?

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

No one takes NCM if the result would be paying more than 20 extra for characteristics. Instead, they find another concept ("my highly dextrous archer is also a mutant/has alien DNA/was bitten by a radioactive mongoose/whatever").

 

NCM as a disadvantage either awards points for your choice of character design (where it is optional), or penalizes the "trained human" archetype (where it is imposed on all such characters).

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

If I'm going to allow a disadvantage for "This character pays double for characteristics above 20/other limits", then I want to know the disadvantage value for the following:

 

- character pays 50% more for characteristics above the same limit

- character pays triple for characteristics above the same limit

- character can never buy characteristics over the NCM limit

- character pays 50% more, double or triple for characteristics over 30 (adjust characteristics whose usual max isn't 20 pro rata), or may never buy them

- character cannot buy Mental Powers (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy Frameworks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy Ranged Attacks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy powers that could not be achieved by a normal human (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- character cannot buy skill rolls greater than 14- (or pays 50% more, double or triple)

- how are these modified if placing a power modifier on the characteristic does not circumvent the restriction?

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

No one takes NCM if the result would be paying more than 20 extra for characteristics. Instead, they find another concept ("my highly dextrous archer is also a mutant/has alien DNA/was bitten by a radioactive mongoose/whatever").

 

NCM as a disadvantage either awards points for your choice of character design (where it is optional), or penalizes the "trained human" archetype (where it is imposed on all such characters).

 

This is, IMSWAG, part of why CM is not a Complication in 6e. The other part (again, IMSWAG) is that Complications are story-driven (their value depends on the frequency with which the Complication routinely affects the story), while CM is a mechanical restriction on character construction. How often would CM routinely* affect the story?

 

*as opposed to unusual or contrived circumstances

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

In a world where some % of the population literally has "powers above and beyond the ken of Men", you effectively have separate sub-species of humanity.

 

Homo Sapien Sapiens has NCM.

 

Homo Sapien Super is literally different on a genetic level to allow their bodies and minds to attain stats well beyond what the genome of sapiens sapiens can attain.

 

Part of the immediate tension in such a world is the underlying backdrop of a species of humanity fighting to not follow Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis into extinction.

...and it's not clear which subspecies should or would be more worried about it.

(On top of that, you have extremists who want to force the issue to resolve in a particular outcome.)

 

As a natural evolutionary response to HS Super, HS Sapiens has begun producing its own version of supers. Some are magic based. Some technology based. Some "merely" trained at an intensity level all but unhead of before this. And yes, some are the results of accidents and experiments that result in some form of ubermensch.

 

Thus you can have supers that come from both gene pools.

 

In such a world, taking NCM is a DisAd for a super as well as an efficiency reward for certain character concepts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

In a world where some % of the population literally has "powers above and beyond the ken of Men", you effectively have separate sub-species of humanity.

 

Homo Sapien Sapiens has NCM.

 

Homo Sapien Super is literally different on a genetic level to allow their bodies and minds to attain stats well beyond what the genome of sapiens sapiens can attain.

 

Part of the immediate tension in such a world is the underlying backdrop of a species of humanity fighting to not follow Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis into extinction.

...and it's not clear which subspecies should or would be more worried about it.

(On top of that, you have extremists who want to force the issue to resolve in a particular outcome.)

 

As a natural evolutionary response to HS Super, HS Sapiens has begun producing its own version of supers. Some are magic based. Some technology based. Some "merely" trained at an intensity level all but unhead of before this. And yes, some are the results of accidents and experiments that result in some form of ubermensch.

 

Thus you can have supers that come from both gene pools.

 

In such a world, taking NCM is a DisAd for a super as well as an efficiency reward for certain character concepts.

 

How does it Disadvantage the character? It requires him to spend extra points for certain effects, but he either spends the points or he doesn't. You won't see any "normal humans" with stats that cost double to an extent that NCM becomes a significant issue. The fact that I didn't spend points on a ranged attack means I cannot attack at range, which means I am disadvantaged. It doesn't get me a Disadvantage worth points. I got points by NOT spending them on ranged attacks. Being unable to fly is a disadvantage if I fall off a building, but I don't take a Disadvantage - I get to spend the points on something other than Flight. And NOT buying higher characteristics provides points to spend on something else - not a Disadvantage.

 

In the game world you describe, the species difference might well provide a basis for complications - social limitations, psychological limitations, etc. But "how you spend your points" should not be a Disadvantage. Why can't the Mutant take disadvantage points for "can't use magic" or "doesn't carry technological devices"? He's disadvantaged by the Drains against mutant powers.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

The fact that I didn't spend points on a ranged attack means I cannot attack at range' date=' which means I am disadvantaged. It doesn't get me a Disadvantage worth points. I got points by NOT spending them on ranged attacks. Being unable to fly is a disadvantage if I fall off a building, but I don't take a Disadvantage - I get to spend the points on something other than Flight. And NOT buying higher characteristics provides points to spend on something else - not a Disadvantage.[/quote']

 

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th, characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.

 

This does not address the idea of what disadvantages/complications should be - that's a design philosophy issue.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

 

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

 

Such people have always been among us. They are members of HS Super.

 

HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.

Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

 

Even "unactualized" HS Super can survive environments and accidents that NCM humans have no chance of. (_Unbreakable_ is about such an example HS Super.)

This is the source of many of those "miraculous" deeds and survivals on the part of some.

Yes, some were about lucky HS sapiens. But most of them were events that involved a member of HS super.

 

Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.

And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

 

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

 

Such people have always been among us. They are members of HS Super.

 

HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.

Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

 

Even "unactualized" HS Super can survive environments and accidents that NCM humans have no chance of. (_Unbreakable_ is about such an example HS Super.)

This is the source of many of those "miraculous" deeds and survivals on the part of some.

Yes, some were about lucky HS sapiens. But most of them were events that involved a member of HS super.

 

Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.

And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

 

Then you have exercised your Right of Houserule and are using NCM far beyond the 5eR RAW and completely outside the scope of 6e CM. Right of Houserule means that, if it works for your gaming group, You're Doing It Right =For You=. It also means that it is not necessarily applicable to The Rest Of Us - and for me it is not.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

As I've said before, I'm a =very= big believer in Logical Consistency.

 

Supers are not ordinary humans unless they somehow flag that they are via NCM or somesuch.

 

Being "merely mortal" (ie NCM) is not a DisAd in a Heroic campaign. Being "merely mortal" in a SuperHeroic campaign is most definitely a DisAd.

 

The logical consequences of being "merely mortal" are simply the side effects of taking the NCM DisAd.

 

I do not screw players just because they've taken a DisAd.

I do make sure there are in-game consequences for taking any given DisAd. Including NCM.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

Then you have exercised your Right of Houserule and are using NCM far beyond the 5eR RAW and completely outside the scope of 6e CM. Right of Houserule means that' date=' if it works for your gaming group, You're Doing It Right =For You=. It also means that it is not necessarily applicable to The Rest Of Us - and for me it is not.[/quote']

 

 

I've basically done the same thing. Its something its a pity 6E didn't address properly IMO. I admit I do get really tired of the vibe from some ( not you) that it is a stupid disadvantage/complication and it inherently will cause all sorts of problems it never has for our group in 20 plus years of gaming and that does make me a little touchy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

A Disadvantage/Complication should only be take if a Player wants that to be part of the game they are in.

 

If I want to declare my Batman Clone a "Normal Human" but never take NCM that means I don't want the Normal Human part of the character to either Complicate my life, or even play out in stories with the very rare exception.

 

From a strict Mechanical POV of NCM in 5E and previous, it was either a Munchkin Gimme (never was gonna buy my stats over that anyways, except as Powers) or Cost Broken. But that's mechanics for you.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

A Disadvantage/Complication should only be take if a Player wants that to be part of the game they are in.

 

If I want to declare my Batman Clone a "Normal Human" but never take NCM that means I don't want the Normal Human part of the character to either Complicate my life, or even play out in stories with the very rare exception.

Hence the Bat "man" in his ordinary titles vs the Bat "god" in his JLA appearances dichotomy.

 

From a strict Mechanical POV of NCM in 5E and previous, it was either a Munchkin Gimme (never was gonna buy my stats over that anyways, except as Powers) or Cost Broken. But that's mechanics for you.

Here we will have to just Agree To Disagree.

 

NCM is no more or no less a "muchkin gimme" or "cost broken" than any other DisAd or Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

 

Also - I said BatMAN. I'm going to play Batman, I will be a normal guy in a bat costume with gadgets. I will play in a Superhero Campaign, most of my stuff will take a Focus Limitation, but I'll have some non-combat stuff to help round out the group. I won't take NCM, but I will keep all my Characteristics within those limits anyways.

 

See? probably not.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

*shrug* and that somehow makes it a -bad- thing?

 

The whole point of HERO is conceptual flexibility within a balance tested point based cost system.

 

Also - I said BatMAN. I'm going to play Batman, I will be a normal guy in a bat costume with gadgets. I will play in a Superhero Campaign, most of my stuff will take a Focus Limitation, but I'll have some non-combat stuff to help round out the group. I won't take NCM, but I will keep all my Characteristics within those limits anyways.

 

See? probably not.

I actually do see what you mean pretty darn clearly.

 

But you seem to missing the point that what makes Batman "Batgod" in his JLA appearances is not that he's been "pimped" to superhuman power levels.

 

It is exactly that his being a "mere mortal" is never more than a temporary disadvantage.

 

The DC Trinity is Superman, Wonderwoman, and Batman exactly because he does not let the fact that his body is "merely human" stop him from doing whatever he can to out-think, out-prepare, and out-fight whoever his opponent is. Even Clark and Diana if it comes down to it.

 

He is utterly ruthless in both his use of himself and others, even if the others are demi-gods, in accomplishing his chosen goal.

...and his goals are always what he feels is best for Humanity. No matter what the cost to himself.

 

In stark contrast, the Batman books dwell far more on Batman having human foibles and various physical and psychological weaknesses

(Bane would never have out-thought or out-fought the JLA Batman.)

 

In one "campaign", Batman is a "normal human" who does not let that get in the way of him doing whatever he can to be most effective.

In the other, Batman has Physical and Psychological Limitations. Including NCM.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

As I've said before' date=' I'm a =very= big believer in Logical Consistency.[/quote']

 

So am I. That's why I'm opposed to Normal Characteristic Maxima in all manifestations, although I admit that the Current Regime's version is a considerable improvement over the past.

 

The whole point of HERO is conceptual flexibility within a balance tested point based cost system.

 

Which is why the new version is better – it is a lot more flexible, as I understand it so far.

 

Ki-rin' date=' you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as [i']Disadvantage[/i] (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.

 

I haven't noticed that “most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage” and I certainly don't like it in any case.

 

Ki-rin, some of the things you say make excellent sense, except for one thing – you're saying them about Normal Characteristic Maxima. For example, you have said this:

 

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

 

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

 

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

 

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

 

I honor it. And I enforce it.

 

It would make more sense to say something like this:

 

In a supers campaign' date=' [b']being a “Normal Human”[/b] =is= a Disadvantage.

 

being a “Normal Human” is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

 

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

 

Therefore being a “Normal Human” is and should be a Disadvantage.

 

I honor it. And I enforce it.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I support the idea of having a Disadvantage that makes a character a “mere mortal” or “only Human” in a superhero world. Such Disadvantages have been discussed elsewhere, and I think in this thread I have addressed ways to realize the concept.

 

But that has nothing to do with NCM. Zero. Zip.

 

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do.

 

I really don't like flatly contradicting people, but....

 

It is not the case, in SHRED, FRED, or in any edition whatsoever of Hero, that “NCM limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do.” There is nothing that NCM prevents you from doing – it only makes some things more expensive. That is, unless you have made a house rule specifying that it is so.

 

Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

 

Again, this is simply and flatly not the case. Name me any attack or environment stress and I will hand you a character with Normal Character Maxima who can withstand it. In fact, please do. I love doing stuff like that.

 

HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.

Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

 

Okay, now you're getting deep, deep, deep into specific setting stuff that applies to your own campaign. Feel free to do so, I guess. But understand that not many people here play in your campaign or are ever likely to.

 

Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.

And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

 

Perhaps this is the case if you explain it beforehand. Someone who is only going by what is in the rules, or perhaps going by the rules plus a couple of decades of experience in games other than yours, may be in for a surprise. Perhaps they think that all they're agreeing to in putting NCM on the sheet is what the book says they're agreeing to – which is not what you say they're agreeing to.

 

Supers are not ordinary humans unless they somehow flag that they are via NCM or somesuch.

 

Somesuch, yes. I am starting to think the system desperately needs a somesuch. But NCM simply isn't a “flag” that identifies something as an ordinary Human. Or are you going to claim that my “Normal Human” character is exactly that in English as well as in Standard Bayangi?

 

If there is some kind of standard “normal in a super world” Complication in the New Dispensation, I missed it, but I really hope there is and wish there were if there's not.

 

Being "merely mortal" (ie NCM) is not a DisAd in a Heroic campaign.

 

Hm....if most of the player characters are assumed to be Demigods (Like many heroes of ancient Greece) maybe “Mere Mortal” could be a Disad...more likely though, I suppose, there'd be a “Package” of semi-divine attributes that “flag” the sons of wayward Gods as what they are.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Son of a palindromedary!

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

 

Some physical limits alter how you would be able to spend points but even if they didn't uniqueness should not be a criteria for exclusion. It's a 'I don't want in in my game - so it shouldn't be in the rules' attitude.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Lucius,

 

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

 

Changing the name of the DisAd to "merely Human" is "merely symantics".

 

Tomato Tomahto. Potato Potahto. (Let's call the whole debate off.)

 

Not being able to swim is not a DisAd in a desert campaign. It definitely is as a sailor in an Age of Sail campaign.

 

Name me any attack or environment stress and I will hand you a character with Normal Character Maxima who can withstand it. In fact, please do. I love doing stuff like that.

As to your challenge. Pick any situation where you need a primary stat of 40 or a figured stat based on primary stat that high, and you have a situation where a NCM human basically can't succeed (or in some cases, survive) unless they are extraordinarily lucky.

 

 

Because HERO is often used to simulate a sort of cartoon physics where people are considerably less fragile than they are ITRW, it's fairly common to forget just how unrealistic HERO can be in this regard.

This is true even in Heroic HERO campaigns. It is especially true in Superheroic campaigns.

 

But even in HERO, what is a passing annoyance or inconvenience for a superhero is often =deadly= to a "merely heroic" character.

 

If a player chooses to play a hero in a superhero campaign, they have chosen to put themselves at greater hazard in an already dangerous profession. That's a DisAd. NCM is merely the game mechanic we use to quantify that DisAd.

 

It is no more or less "accurate" a simulation of all of the myriad ways a being of ordinary flesh and blood differs from a super than any other game mechanic in HERO is "accurate" at whatever that mechanic is simulating.

 

Making that simulation as accurate or logically consistent as we want while still making sure we all have fun (this is a game after all) is up to -us-, not the HERO system. HERO is our tool. Not the other way around.

 

In this case, the effect that needs to be simulated is the DisAd that "normal" humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns.

They also have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't.

NCM is intended to model that.

 

We as people get to choose how accurately we want to model any effect by how much we "sweat the details" . Often those details are things that we as players and GMs must impose above and beyond any immediate mechanic if we want to simulate a given effect accurately enough.

 

That true of every game mechanic ever made for every system ever made. Not just HERO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Some physical limits alter how you would be able to spend points but even if they didn't uniqueness should not be a criteria for exclusion. It's a 'I don't want in in my game - so it shouldn't be in the rules' attitude.

 

I never said that, for one thing.

 

I've never been particularly for or against NCM as a Disadvantage. I like the new model better, but that's because I think it's more useful.