Shadow run conversions

[Fearghus]

OK I am not normally a big fan of converting on game into another, but A group I play with recently began playing Shadow Run, and one of the players said something like... “Why don’t we just run this in hero?”

Well the short answer to that question is because the GM owns the SR book, and it has all the material you need to play it already made and ready to go.

But this still got my gears turning. I can figure a pretty strait forward build for everything except decking.

Sure I could just make it some power that grants insanely high computer programming skill and leave it up to the players imagination what happens in the matrix, but basically I want a power that allows you to project an avatar of sorts into a computer simulated environment. In this environment your stats would all be different (most likely your physical stats would be based on mental stats or something) you’d have gear you could use (programs on your deck) and you would encounter in this other world other deckers and AI (who in this world have physical presence).

Then this got me to thinking... Computers that have powers. I know any computer that has a physical power is basically a base or vehicle or automaton, but what about mental powers. Couldn’t a computer (especially an AI) have telekinesis or telepathy like any other mind? I know I have done this in reverse where I have allowed players to use mental abilities on computers.

Anyway just food for though, and I figured you guys might like talking about it since my wheels were spinning I thought I would share the insanity.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

SHADOWRUN HERO Conversion

 

General concept discussion, character conversion guidelines, and writeups:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6060

 

Detailed and comprehensive worldbook conversion:

http://www.starherofandom.com/h_shadowrun/index.php

 

There are other compatible HERO cyberpunk elements, e.g. conversions of Cyberpunk 2020, on the Internet that I can direct you to if you'd like.

[Lucius]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Decking would be done as a form of ExtraDimensionalMovement

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary would know

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Hmm. Yeah. And/or Multiform/Duplication. That can allow you to buy a better representation in the Matrix pretty well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Decking would be done as a form of ExtraDimensionalMovement

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary would know

 

 

PS:Carpentry, surely?

 

What?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

On a more helpful note, I was doing the same thing quite recently (although the game never actually got off the ground. The Starhero website conversion is amazing. Also very helpful though (especially if you want to simplify cyberdecking*), is Killer Shrike's website, which uses a skill based system:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*like normal decking but, you know, cybered: use PS Cybercarpenter

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

If you can get your hands on Fourth Edition Cyber Hero, there's a decking system already put together. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it does parallel the way things work in Shadowrun pretty well.

[Blackberry]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Hmm. Yeah. And/or Multiform/Duplication. That can allow you to buy a better representation in the Matrix pretty well.

 

That was my thought as well. Just have everyone who has a link buy Duplication, and the duplicate is the character within the system.

[pinecone]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

OK I am not normally a big fan of converting on game into another' date=' but A group I play with recently began playing Shadow Run, and one of the players said something like... “Why don’t we just run this in hero?”[/size']

Well the short answer to that question is because the GM owns the SR book, and it has all the material you need to play it already made and ready to go.

But this still got my gears turning. I can figure a pretty strait forward build for everything except decking.

Sure I could just make it some power that grants insanely high computer programming skill and leave it up to the players imagination what happens in the matrix, but basically I want a power that allows you to project an avatar of sorts into a computer simulated environment. In this environment your stats would all be different (most likely your physical stats would be based on mental stats or something) you’d have gear you could use (programs on your deck) and you would encounter in this other world other deckers and AI (who in this world have physical presence).

Then this got me to thinking... Computers that have powers. I know any computer that has a physical power is basically a base or vehicle or automaton, but what about mental powers. Couldn’t a computer (especially an AI) have telekinesis or telepathy like any other mind? I know I have done this in reverse where I have allowed players to use mental abilities on computers.

Anyway just food for though, and I figured you guys might like talking about it since my wheels were spinning I thought I would share the insanity.

 

 

Sure just build "Enter the CyberZone" (Look at enter the speedzone, or enter the Mindzone...) and go from there...shoot I'd expect AI mage ghost programs to be running around.... "Whats up?" "My deck is possesed" "Duuude, I told you to run Linex!"

[Lucius]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Can you put the Extradimensional Advantage on Duplication?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Duplicate Palindromedary

Duplicate Palindromedary

Duplicate Palindromedary

Duplicate Palindromedary

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Also very helpful though (especially if you want to simplify cyberdecking), is Killer Shrike's website, which uses a skill based system:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber.aspx

 

Michael Surbrook also uses a simplified netrunning system for his wonderful anime-style cyberpunk HERO setting, Kazei Five: http://surbrook.devermore.net/worldbooks/kazei5/k5netrunning.html

 

The advantage to handling it this way is that non-jacked-in PCs don't have to stand around a long (game- and real-world) time out of the action while the netrunners do their thing.

[gojira]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber.aspx

 

Beat me too it, qft.

 

Also, Urban Fantasy has some rules for Magic Punk, yes? It's not cyber, but it's part way there and has a spell system (a new one) with a Shadowrun-esque magic system. Add MetaCyber to UF and you might have most of the work done for you.

[Fearghus]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

I knew someone out there had to have done a conversion. Thanks alot guys. Like I said I am not planning on actully running a game hell I am not even the Shadow run game master for the game we are playing, but other players were thinking about the conversion... I'll shoot these web sites over to them and maybe they will convince the GM to run it in hero instead.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Michael Surbrook also uses a simplified netrunning system for his wonderful anime-style cyberpunk HERO setting' date=' [i']Kazei Five[/i]: http://surbrook.devermore.net/worldbooks/kazei5/k5netrunning.html

 

The advantage to handling it this way is that non-jacked-in PCs don't have to stand around a long (game- and real-world) time out of the action while the netrunners do their thing.

 

The 4th Edition PDF skips over netrunning (IIRC), while Kazei 5 for 6th Edition will use Mental Powers to represent wireless computer access. I think it will work well, and makes netrunners the mentalists of the setting, with cyborgs bricks, street samurai the martial artists, and espers the energy projectors. However, K5 is good for Shadowrunnish cyber and the like.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Dang! I like that idea too. Matrix operations really are like Mental Powers. How did I never think of that obvious corollary? I feel incredibly stupid. Mind Scan is obviously one of the big players, and Telepathy, Mind Control, Mental Defense, Damage Shield...DAMN! LOL.

 

Wow. That makes the Matrix SO much easier than the whole EDM/Multiform/Duplication thing. If you're connected to a node, that's just a Mind Scan lock-on and/or continuous use of a Mental Power.

 

Technomancers could even take a Disadvantage that says they can be affected both as the Human Class of Minds and Machine Class of Minds...better buy up those defenses!!!

[Susano]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Talk to Dave Mattingly if you'd like to playtest some of the material.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

The 4th Edition PDF skips over netrunning (IIRC)' date=' while Kazei 5 for 6th Edition will use Mental Powers to represent wireless computer access. I think it will work well, and makes netrunners the mentalists of the setting, with cyborgs bricks, street samurai the martial artists, and espers the energy projectors. However, K5 is good for Shadowrunnish cyber and the like.[/quote']

 

Actually, I did an extensive work up of Decking as Mental powers for MetaCyber; it was up on my site for a long time.

 

I recently came to the conclusion that while its an alluring option it really doesn't work out all that well in practice, and I have started working out a new version that's based on Multiform and simply defining NET paradigms as if they were separate campaign settings with their own ground rules. I did the initial workup in November and got a rough up on the site, but have been derailed from finishing it due to real life difficulties. I'm moving this weekend, and hope to have more free time after I get settled in at the new place.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Actually, I did an extensive work up of Decking as Mental powers for MetaCyber; it was up on my site for a long time.

 

I recently came to the conclusion that while its an alluring option it really doesn't work out all that well in practice, and I have started working out a new version that's based on Multiform and simply defining NET paradigms as if they were separate campaign settings with their own ground rules. I did the initial workup in November and got a rough up on the site, but have been derailed from finishing it due to real life difficulties. I'm moving this weekend, and hope to have more free time after I get settled in at the new place.

 

Hmm. Really? And I was all worked up to start rolling my own. LOL. If you don't mind sharing, what were some of the things you didn't like about it in practice?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Hmm. Really? And I was all worked up to start rolling my own. LOL. If you don't mind sharing' date=' what were some of the things you didn't like about it in practice?[/quote']

 

Well for starters, its probably useful to realize that I provide a skill based version of hacking as the main way to do it anyway, across what I call the "programmatic" interface. This is a more realistic approach, and fits in to the MetaCyber's grittier setting very well. However for some people the virtual reality interactive form of hacking is essential to a "cyberpunk" setting and thus I also presented a means to do that across what I call the "neural interface layer".

 

 

So, with the task of needing a virtual reality "headspace" approach to hacking on hand, I roughed out several implementations. I don't like EDM in general, so it was low on my list of possibles. I dont like the complicated Desolid / Astral Travel approach either as its a serious workaround and is extremely limited. I dont like the Duplication approach for purely mathematical reasons, as I don't like the way the cost changes based on the cost of the base character or the percentage of difference rules. Multiform + alternate reality as simply mini man-made campaign settings was very attractive, but the advantage of Mental Powers seemed to be that they would allow resolution of NET actions at the same time as normal world actions inline to the game in progress so as to avoid the classic split party problem inherent to netrunning which leaves all non netrunners sitting around.

 

There are some other incidental benefits as well, such as Mental Powers already being "in the head", having special rules for long distance usage and persistence baked in, and Mental Illusions already provides a model for measuring false sensory data up to and including the ability to inflict psychosomatic / feedback damage which is handy for modelling an alternate reality.

 

Controlling 'AI's, bots, agents, nodes? Mind Control. Probing them for info? Telepathy. Trying to damage them? EGO Blast or BOECV KA. Tracing? Mind Scan.

 

Etc etc.

 

All good things on the surface, and I built up a fairly elaborate system around it. A nice little house of cards. However by the time i was done 'translating' Mental Powers so as to serve as the NET, describing how it worked, what powers could have BOECV applied to them to be used on the NET and which couldnt, what was doable, what wasn't, I had a pretty restrictive and fairly complicated bundle of special rules on my hands that required interpretation and narrowed character design options both for PC's and NPC's / NET entities. It worked fine, but it was heavy, cumbersome, and tied my hands as a GM when it came to design.

 

It also failed to meet one of the requirements I had for MetaCyber which is that its an Action / Adventure setting not a Scifi or Fantasy setting. I want the focus to be on the action and grit of doing runs, dealing with sec forces, rival teams, gangs, etc. I want it very "street" and fast moving and at least somewhat realistic.

 

The Mental Powers approach required any player that wanted to interact with it to become extremely familiar with all Mental Powers, how they work together, as interpreted thru the implementation of them as NET Powers. It required a fair amount of abstract thinking. It required a good deal of GM interpretation. Most damningly it distracted and detracted from the main action in the physical world. Even though it technically could be resolved simultaneously across the Time chart in combat conditions, it was still sufficiently foreign and separated to still put the split party strain into effect due to the extra head space required to keep it all straight and narrate effectively two separate games simultaneously. There was still a major dichotomy between in the NET and in the flesh it was just a little different than other mechanisms.

 

In short, it didnt really solve the problems it was intended to solve. So, after a long deliberation, I decided to back it out and redo it wholecloth. No more Mental powers basis. I went back to the other main approach I roughed before, doing it with a special purpose Multiform. Multiple avatars? No problem; Multiform allows multiple and radically different forms without issue. Net paradigms with widely different rules as to what is and isn't possible, themes, and "power levels", what kinds of avatars are allowed to interact therein? No problem; simply defining net paradigms (NETHoods) as if they were campaign settings in their own right with their own ground-rules works perfectly.

 

Under this set up interacting in NETHoods (effectively alternate realities experienced by user's minds) via avatars (defined as characters and included in a multiform) works exactly like running normal characters in any other HERO System campaign setting. A Fantasy themed NETHood with "magic" and orcs and such? No problem. A Tron-like NETHood? No problem. A stripped down abstracted VR node NETHood? No problem. Every NETHood can be different, and set its own limit on what kind of avatars are appropriate in it, the branding / skinning that is allowed, the theme it wants to impose (and also of course countermanding such things is an excellent opportunity for a hacker to express themselves).

 

Anyone can interact with it if they want assuming a particular NETHood isn't restricted access; they just need one or more avatars on tap, which can be stored online for most NETHoods and are readily available from any NET Terminal. But a real "decker" specializes in interacting and manipulating things in this space and gaining access to restricted NETHoods that have actual business use vs public gaming and social NETHoods. A lot of their avatars are probably specifically designed to hack, and thus they don't want to store them on a server somewhere where a sysadmin or sec app might discover them, so they store their own and carry them with them.

 

Anyway, I could go on, but this is taking more time than I really intended when I started. I've got a rough version of the multiform approach up on the site under MetaCyber->Technology; feel free to peruse it if you like and see where Im going with it. I archived off the Mental powers version and could dig it up if you like but the links would be broken; some of the development of it is discussed in the MetaCyber thread in the Dark Champions forum if you want to see its evolution.

 

It's not that the Mental powers approach didnt work mechanically mind you, its just that it didnt really alleviate the level of handwavium and general awkwardness of a VR style net / matrix / whatever you want to call it; it simply replaced one set of heavy handwaves (ie its [EDM / Duplication / Desolid Mind Only], just go with it OK?) with a more complex set of better hidden handwaves (ie its Mental Powers! some restrictions, exceptions, and redefinitions apply. It's a viable approach, but too clumsy for my purposes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

Gotcha. Wow. Thank you for the thorough explanation. Hmm. I'll have to think over how each approach will affect my potential games. I'll definitely have a look at your current approach, but you don't have to dig up archives or anything. I almost always look more at the conceptual level before digging in and reinventing the wheel.

[Susano]

Re: Shadow run conversions

 

My system isn't decking per se, but more along the lines of the cyber attacks used in Ghost in the Shell.