Immunity to Electric Attacks

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Not IMO, for a game the bills itself as a Universal tool kit and being "Invulnerable" to specific SFX isn't even a rare effect across genres. If you can "build any character you can imagine"... Invulnerable to X isn't that hard to imagine.

 

Universal means all encompassing.

 

So you can either have Invulnerable to X

Or you can have an X power that hurts everything

 

The same game system cannot support both. By that definition, no game system is ever universal.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Desolid, Always On, Inherent; Can only be affected by Non-Electrical Attacks.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Well said Nexus. I completely agree.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

......................

 

I actually agree that high Defenses cover many aspects of "Invulnerability" but the problem comes from Hero's flexibility interestingly enough. A Special Effect can over many things. Just looking at Electricity it can apply to EB, RKA, Adjustment Powers, Entangles, Flashes, NNDs, etc that can and will bypass normal Defenses making building a character that's Invulnerable to Electricity much more pricey than its probably worth, more complicated and prone to create irritiation if the player forgets an aspect or runs into some unusual application of the sfx.

 

Even the 100 Damage Reduction application falls flat against Entangles and Adjustment powers.

 

I like the suggestions for a Unified Special Effect Defense mechanic that rendered the character flat out invulnerable to a DCs/APs per level. Again though, costing it could be tricky.

 

.....................

 

...could be, but:

 

Insulator

Suppress 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), all electrical powers simultaneously (+2), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (64 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

If you have electrical powers of your own, add 'personal immunity'

 

This acts as a suppression field immediately around you so it weakens all electrical powers, including entangles, adjustment powers, flashes, NNDs and even opponent's defences by 10 character points.

 

That may not sound like much for the cost (and arguably you could get some limitation on this as electricity is not a very common sfx), but 10 points matters: it is 1d6 of an NND, 2d6 from an EB, or 1 Body and 1 DEF on an entangle. It means you punch through 10 points less of enemy force field. Opponents with electric TK are wealer against you - it works on everything.

 

Although it is far from 'invulnerability' it does mean electricity has far less effect on you than on most others - especially bearing in mind that it is usually the last points spend that really make the difference, and that applies, in a current rules legal way, to everything electrical.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

You need to add Persistent or they become more vulnerable to Electricity while unconscious, Continuous (or else you have to actively “use” the suppress), and possibly Uncontrolled.

 

Plus, wouldn’t you technically be suppressing the power of anyone within HtH range, not the powers that come into your hex?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

You need to add Persistent or they become more vulnerable to Electricity while unconscious, Continuous (or else you have to actively “use” the suppress), and possibly Uncontrolled.

 

Plus, wouldn’t you technically be suppressing the power of anyone within HtH range, not the powers that come into your hex?

 

Suppresses built as fields affect any power that enters (or is in) the area they cover, and that's in the book, I believe. You could certainly add persistent if the power worked while you are unconscious, but you do not need continuous as the power is already constant (continuous on suppress allows you to keep adding more effect) or uncontrolled as you don't need it when you are dead and you'll never be out of range of it

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

doh'! I always forget how different Suppress is from Drain. Sorry. Continuous is completely not needed. I’ll stick with Persistent though. Someone who take damage from something when unconscious isn’t immune to it, IMO.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

By that definition, no game system is ever universal.

 

Good thing that's not the definition I'm using. IMO, Universal as applied to game system to mean "This game system can model any genre or setting the player wishes." Specially, it has no setting or default genre attached. A Universal game system is designed to able to cover all genres, settings and allow for whatever character types would work in those genres and settings.

 

A theoretical "Invulnerable to X" type power isn't all encompassing. It does not mean the character can't be hurt by anything at all. It only encompasses all applications of X, say electricity. That Hero can't currently model a pretty simple concept without fairly extensive handwaving and kludges, IMO, takes away from the Universal aspect of the game. That other systems that advertise themselves as universal can handle this type of "invulnerability" exists seems to indicate that it's not an impossible or unrealistic goal.

 

Hero System already officially allows options as broken and wonky as "The Speed Zone" if the GM wants to use them. I don't think SFX Defense, 100 Percent DR or other options for limited Invulnerability are going to shatter it, particularly as an option.

 

Or tone down the "You can build anything, etc etc" boiler plate in its advertising and address what the system cannot do early on. Either way I think this should be addressed. It's got to among the most common complaints/questions I've seen on these boards and other places about Hero System.

 

So you can either have Invulnerable to X

Or you can have an X power that hurts everything

l.

 

Invulnerable to X is more limited than can hurt anything. If the power that can hurt anything isn't X then it doesn't interact with invulnerability. Mainly, you have to decide what happens when those effects bump into each other. Exalted, for example, decided that the defense wins in those instances. IME, that's what most games do since an Invulnerability to X effect IS more limited than this attack can hurt anything.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force, neither but not both.

 

If I have to pick, I pick neither. If I have to pick one of the first two, I pick the irresistible force. It's action-oriented. You gotta get off your butt and do something to make irresistible force useful. Invulnerability requires nothing of you but getting hit with the right flavor of damage.

 

The notion of being immune to X is problematic, because once you allow it, all it takes is a modifier to make it applicable to any one S/FX which allows you to be immune to whatever your opponent is throwing. (or put it in a VPP)

 

Also, too many games feature a specific S/FX which dominates the scene. I've played in games where magic was almost ubiquitous. Allowing magic resistance or invulnerability would break such a game. Ditto for psionic campaigns, martial arts campaigns, etc. etc.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force' date=' neither but not both.[/quote']

 

Well, it could allow for both, but not in the same campaign at the same time.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force, neither but not both.

 

No, you just have to decide what happens when they meet as far as game mechanics go. Many games already do this. Besides being immune to X is only "immovable" in regards to X. Otherwise it has no interaction at all to A, B, C, D, Q, Y, etc.

 

The notion of being immune to X is problematic, because once you allow it, all it takes is a modifier to make it applicable to any one S/FX which allows you to be immune to whatever your opponent is throwing. (or put it in a VPP)

 

What makes you assume there would be modifier to switch what SFX you are immune too? There isn't one to switch other defensive powers from ED to PD at will, or the senses Flash Defense protects. Also there are already powers that are GM's permission to be put in VPP or any power frameworks. So no problem there. There is a modifier for changing the special effect of an attack into anything.

 

Also, too many games feature a specific S/FX which dominates the scene. I've played in games where magic was almost ubiquitous. Allowing magic resistance or invulnerability would break such a game. Ditto for psionic campaigns, martial arts campaigns, etc. etc.

 

The don't use allow the ability to be purchased in those settings or restrict them in some fashion. There are numerous ways too. For example, you might be immune to on sort of magic, but not another sort in a fantasy game.

 

Besides, many things are perfectly balanced in one setting but unbalanced in another. Fully fledged flight, Desoldification or long distance Energy Blasts would generally be unbalanced in a MA game UNLESS it was something like Dragonball Z...which is arguably more of a Supers game with MA flavor.

 

Just because some thing is in the corebook or a supplement doesn't mean it's appropriate (at least in raw form) in every single game any more than you have to use every tool in the kit for every single project you perform with it. If a costumer is just flat out opposed to the notion they don't have to use it at all. Steve Long isn't going to come to your game and make you.

 

I'd simply like to see the issue of invulnerability, mainly special effect based Invulnerability addressed more elegantly in Hero System since it is something that comes up so frequently particularly among new players and GM (and is often used by Hero's detractors as a failing or even evidence that Hero's claim of universality are lies)

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Here's an odd early morning thought that may or may not be viable. How about Advantage for DR that extends it's effect beyond Body/Stun Damage to other affects like Adjustment powers that reduce other characteristics, Flash duration, maybe even Entangle results?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers, maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.

[Vulcan]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers' date=' maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.[/quote']

 

And that's where the trouble lies, because for certain Entangle SFX (the taser vs. Lightning Lass is the big one) it makes NO SENSE for the entangle to work against someone immune to that SFX.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers' date=' maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.[/quote']

 

Yeah, thinking about I agree. Entangle is a tricky beast too because in some cases it wouldn't makes sense that being "Invulnerable" would effect one and in others it would. A Limitation or greater Advantage maybe?

 

And that's where the trouble lies' date=' because for certain Entangle SFX (the taser vs. Lightning Lass is the big one) it makes NO SENSE for the entangle to work against someone immune to that SFX.[/quote']

 

Yep, Exactly. Or Capt Arctic might be Invulnerable to Cold but it wouldn't necessarily render him unable to be frozen inside a block of ice but an Entangle defined as "numbing paralyzing cold" shouldn't affect

[JmOz]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Yeah, thinking about I agree. Entangle is a tricky beast too because in some cases it wouldn't makes sense that being "Invulnerable" would effect one and in others it would. A Limitation or greater Advantage maybe?

 

 

 

Exactly but hopefully without side tracking the thread I'll say I've never been fond of the Entangle build for tasers but there are other examples of this too. Capt Artic might be Invulnerable to Cold but it wouldn't necessarily render him unable to be frozen inside a block of ice.

 

Maybe somekind of lim on the entangles instead...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Actually I was thinking of the mechanics of reducing Entangle effects vs. the others with a Damage Reduction type construct. An Entangle that is too weak basically has no effect, as opposed to the other powers mentioned which have some small cumulative effect after being reduced. Damage Reduction is really a, "Still affects the character but will take much longer to have a significant effect." Reducing the Body and/or Defence of an Entangle would be more like increasing your Defences (ability to completely shrug off the attack) IMO. It just doesn't fit with DR.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

There is nothing wrong with a universe that contains both an unstoppable force and an immoveable object so long as they never meet.

 

In my opinion every absolute is simply hyperbole.

[DocMan]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I think there is room in the game for an invulnerability vs SFX power, but only vs one SFX.

 

Of course, in our Protectors campaign, we did have an NPC who was invulnerable to everything. He pegged the scale in mutant power and meta power levels. Our GM claimed that he actually had a character sheet for the guy that worked out all of his powers, but I never saw it. The thing is, aside from "invulnerable to everything", he had no powers. He was sick of being on the run from everyone who wanted to study him and replicate his powers. So we promised to get him a jammer to keep him from being tracked down by his power signature, and hired him on as our mechanic and handyman at our base.

 

Doc

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Of course' date=' in our Protectors campaign, we did have an NPC who was invulnerable to everything. He pegged the scale in mutant power and meta power levels. Our GM claimed that he actually had a character sheet for the guy that worked out all of his powers, but I never saw it. The thing is, aside from "invulnerable to everything", he had no powers. He was sick of being on the run from everyone who wanted to study him and replicate his powers. So we promised to get him a jammer to keep him from being tracked down by his power signature, and hired him on as our mechanic and handyman at our base.[/quote']

I had a PC kind of like that back in 4th edition. Natural Armor, Damage Reduction, Persistant Aid, and a few bits of other Hardened defences here and there made him pretty invulnerable. I believe it was something like 84 Body he had to take in one hit before he'd actually be wounded (even then he'd heal it back the next Phase).

 

But he was a total utter pansy. Not only because he had no other powers, but because all his defences worked against Body only. He even took extra Stun from many things. So he was the guy they'd throw in the gears of the doomsday device to break it. When he woke up in screaming pain a week later, he'd be back to his normal annoying little self. Heh. Fun here and there, but obviously not a serious member of the team.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I think there is room in the game for an invulnerability vs SFX power' date=' but only vs one SFX.[/quote']

 

Which SFX?

 

Vs. Mental Illusions? Vs Mental Powers?

 

Vs. Fire? Vs Heat? Vs temperature extremes? vs Energy?

 

Vs. Pointed Sticks? Vs. Piercing? Vs. Piercing and Slashing? Vs. All Physical Damage?

 

I'd rather see the system define the scope as broadly as possible and leave it to me, the GM, to decide how appropriate it is to my campaign, and thus to what extent I will allow it.

 

If it costs, say, 120 points to be immune to all physical damage and another 120 for all energy damage, is that really a lot more powerful than spending 240 points on defenses? 70 PD, 30 resistant, 70 ED, 30 resistant, 30 Power Defense, 20 Sight Flash Defense, 20 Mental Defense seems pretty overpowered to me, and Invulnerable Man is still affected by Flash, Adjustment and Mental powers.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Looks at Hugh's post..."What he said"

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

What if we based it on Desolidification with applicable Modifiers, plus a Naked Affects Physical World Advantage that applies to attack powers at a game's AP limit. That's not quite right because you could only actually apply Affects Physical World to a power that is 1/3 the game's AP limit, but it might give us a decent idea of where to start in terms of price (and tends to balance the cheesy application of that Naked Advantage as well).

 

For a game with a 60 AP limit on attacks:

 

Desolidification; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Persistant (+1/2) [ 80 Active ]; Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2); Only to Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1) [ 32 Real ]

 

Naked Affects Physical World (+2) on 60 AP attack powers; 0 End (+1/2) [ 180 Active, 180 Real]

 

That's a total Real Cost of 212 points. Seems a little steep. Certainly it shouldn't cost more than that for a reasonably limited set of SFX. Hmm.

[Egyptoid]

Desolid Used for "Immunity to Electric Attacks"

 

Desolid' date=' Always On, Inherent; Can be affected by Non-Electrical Attacks.[/quote']

 

no responses, hmmm . . . is it:

 

A) lots of people have me on ignore. can't blame'em.

 

this isnt a legal build in people's opinion.

 

C) its so genius that others are stunned into silence.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desolid Used for "Immunity to Electric Attacks"

 

no responses, hmmm . . . is it:

 

A) lots of people have me on ignore. can't blame'em.

 

this isnt a legal build in people's opinion.

 

C) its so genius that others are stunned into silence.

 

It's pretty much my take too, but I can see the balance issues that can be brought up, especially because the standard rules state you have to apply Affects Physical World on all your attack powers. So that's why I'm wondering if some kind of Naked application of that Advantage might help to alleviate some people's aversion to this approach.