You. Make. The Call.

[ghost-angel]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

It's a whole bunch of low powered abilities. Some of them kind of neat.

 

At this point, just convert it to a VPP, give him back some points.

[Zed-F]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Agreed. If you're going to allow that MP you might as well just let him have the VPP. If the on-the-fly flexibility is problematic, make him list all the slots like he's done above, but don't overcharge him for something he should be getting for a lot less than he is.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Agreed. If you're going to allow that MP you might as well just let him have the VPP. If the on-the-fly flexibility is problematic' date=' make him list all the slots like he's done above, but don't overcharge him for something he should be getting for a lot less than he is.[/quote']

 

I honestly never expected him to go this nuts. It was never so much about cost versus value as it was the general impracticality of VPPs in some games. I'm going to let him come up with as many as he likes, and so long as he's cleared them through me before the adventure starts, he can use them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I'd allow it. Heck, he's paying more points using a multipower than he would using a VPP.

 

example:

 

36 Cantrips: Variable Power Pool, 15 base + 21 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (36 Active Points)

[Notes: Essentially a multipower with an infinite # of slots]

 

Agreed. The problem isn't whether it's a MP or a VPP, it's whether I as a GM am prepared to permit all of these powers, and this level of versatility. Once the MP costs more than the VPP, change it to a VPP.

[Balabanto]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

To me, that smacks of munchkinism. The question with a VPP is "How accurately does it reflect the abilities of this character in relation to other characters in the game?"

 

For the most part, a Multipower is the right answer, regardless of what the most efficient means of building it is.

 

I don't care how many points it saves your PC, you will never, in my game, be able to buy a VPP of skills. You will never be able to buy skill levels through a focus. Because the moment that you do that, every other player will ask to do it, too. Roleplaying games are not comic books. The characters do not have writer's fiat. Everyone has to feel valuble and like what they did meant something. All it takes is the littlest thing, and suddenly, there can be arguing and bitterness at your gaming table.

 

Have people become too sensitive? Sure! But that doesn't mean that the feeling of ineffectiveness because Bob was allowed to buy his skill levels through a focus goes away.

 

Usually, whichever is the more expensive means is the way to go. Unless a Variable Power Pool is unavoidable for the concept (500 year old mage, etc) it should always be the weapon of last resort.

[ghost-angel]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

What, exactly, are you talking about? Skills? Skill Levels?

 

The construct in question was a Cantrip MP, which is just as easily simulated by a Cantrip VPP.

 

Skills shouldn't go in a VPP anyways - they're a Special Power.

 

As for No Skill Levels through a focus - your call but I think that's a bit of a bad call.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

...But that doesn't mean that the feeling of ineffectiveness because Bob was allowed to buy his skill levels through a focus goes away.

 

...

 

A lot depends on character concept. If a player wants to put limitations on his csl's I would just make sure they are prepared to be without them whenever the limitation is being enforced.

 

If Bob's sfx concept is that the 'focus' is the reason behind the skill levels why is it so wrong to let him take the focus limitation when buying them?

 

I heard similar complaints about putting Overall Levels in a multipower when I posted my versions of Superman and Flash. It's how I envisioned aspects of having 'superspeed' for those characters. If their powers are taken away (common occurance in the source material) they no longer have those levels.

 

The focus is not always going to be available. The multipower is going to be set to different slots. The balancing factors are already there. The GM just has to be fair about shining a light on them.

 

Other players feeling overshadowed can also stem from storytelling that is too combat centric (like when they are playing the skillmaster/gadgeteer).

 

Is the skillmaster/gadgeteer champions character filling the same utility role as a the cleric in d&d?

[tesuji]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Well I dont have strict ap limits but generally for 350 i weigh in at 15dc max and defenses maxing at 35ish but of course that varies as there are many ways to buy defense.

 

but i would allow the 90 str tk as long as he understood the max damage would still cap at 15dc. he can lift the bigger stuff ok, but the damage cap is set... 15dc even if it is a 90 str tk punch.

 

His force field also maxes at whatever gets him into the 35ish range max, tho i will compare to his con to see where his con stun falls.

 

IOW allow it but it still has the typical restrictions of the campaign.

 

bt the practicality of the design is poor... the "most of the time i am within campaign limits but "once in a while " i exceed the hell out of them" doesn't play well. it too easily boils down to "cover me while i waste them" kind of play. pair this guy with a good missile defelect guy and you got trouble.

 

so dont fall for it.

 

the key with the "allow it but limit it anyway" is the guys who are playing fair and want the super-lift but not be game breaking will accept it. the guys who want to sneak by you a dc buster will object and fuss and fret and reveal that was their intent pretty quickly.

[The Hawk God]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

A player comes to you with a character with this power construction:

 

120....Telekinetic Powers: Multipower, 150 point reserve, all slots IIF - Power Amulet
23m....1) Telekinesis: 90 STR, Fine Manipulation
24m....2) Telekinetic Shield: Force Wall, 26PD/26ED, 5" Long, 2" Tall, Opaque to Sight Group
24m....3) Personal TK Shield: Force Field (75PD/75ED)
24m....4) TK Flight: Flight 55", Position Shift, x256 NCM

It's a standard 350 point characters campaign, they're spending 215 on powers, and presumably the remainder on characteristics and skills. These are the only powers they intend to take.

 

Do you allow it? Or do the extreme numbers send him back to the drawing board?

 

I know many GMs who would veto this immediately, seeing that TK strength and not wanting a hero who can mentally lift an ASW destroyer, or fly at 30+ times the speed of sound outside of combat, or whose force field, in full effect, can nearly stand up to artillery, in their campaign.

 

But when you get right down to it, most of the time this guy is going to have a pretty even balance between offense, defense and movement, right? Or you're going to paste him the minute he uses all his power to deliver an 18D6 TK punch...

 

So, what do you think?

 

I would not allow it solely on the active point rules for my game. Reduced down to a 75 point slots in the MP and I am all on board. I find that even with these SunBurst style PCs, players tend to stick all their points into one slot. Often as snipers, hoping not to get hit as they hide, 20 stories up, in a building, with mirrored glass.

 

I would also suggest augmenting the MP with an EC of the same special effect for constant powers, like flight, force field, and tactile telekinesis (STR no figureds).

[Balabanto]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

What, exactly, are you talking about? Skills? Skill Levels?

 

The construct in question was a Cantrip MP, which is just as easily simulated by a Cantrip VPP.

 

Skills shouldn't go in a VPP anyways - they're a Special Power.

 

As for No Skill Levels through a focus - your call but I think that's a bit of a bad call.

 

All that stuff could easily be placed into a power pool of cantrips. Let's assume your mage is pretty Dextrous in a fantasy hero game. He's got a 13. (ooo. Scary)

 

That's a 12-. Now give him "skill of the moment as a cantrip" and add +6 to it. Now he's better than every other PC in the game at it.

 

And if you add the simple of expedient of a "magic wand", now he can have two of them, magic wand being an OAF.

 

You need only to look at Champions In 3D to see how broken skill levels through a focus are. They can be afforded, generally, at 1.5x the general rate. Yes, it's 4th edition, I know, but combat is radically unbalanced by having skill levels through a device. If you want powers like that, you should have to aid the appropriate characteristic and have a low fade rate, only for a single skill at a time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

All that stuff could easily be placed into a power pool of cantrips. Let's assume your mage is pretty Dextrous in a fantasy hero game. He's got a 13. (ooo. Scary)

 

That's a 12-. Now give him "skill of the moment as a cantrip" and add +6 to it. Now he's better than every other PC in the game at it.

 

Skills are a special power that doesn't belong in a framework to begin with, so the GM has every right to refuse to allow spells that duplicate skills. At the same time, the old reliable Knock spell seems a lot like lockpicking (or "Transform - locked portal to unlocked portal")

 

You need only to look at Champions In 3D to see how broken skill levels through a focus are. They can be afforded' date=' generally, at 1.5x the general rate. Yes, it's 4th edition, I know, but combat is radically unbalanced by having skill levels through a device. If you want powers like that, you should have to aid the appropriate characteristic and have a low fade rate, only for a single skill at a time.[/quote']

 

So no rifles with scopes in your game world, I take it...

 

We disagree on a philosophical basis. The fact that something CAN be abused is not a reason it SHOULD be banned. If it were, we should get rid of alcohol, prescription drugs and automobiles here in the real world, off the top of my head.