You. Make. The Call.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I think the same issues apply - he still has to choose a hefty tradeoff between damage and defense, which was why I would have gone with a straight TK EB, with no bells and whistles, to provide the ability to attack at campaign norms while maintaining campaign norm defenses.

 

Of course, I'm assuming the level of campaign norm.

 

Yeah, that's potentially an issue...we don't have an established campaign norms - I didn't tell them anything about what to expect because the campaign is one where there has been NO previous history of supers - until one set point, and then supers of all types start happening - sorta like Marvel's "White Event" that kicked off eight new comics...back...oh, heck, I'm really dating myself now, aren't I?

[Certified]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Yeah' date=' that's potentially an issue...we don't have an established campaign norms - I didn't tell them anything about what to expect because the campaign is one where there has been NO previous history of supers - until one set point, and then supers of all types start happening - sorta like Marvel's "White Event" that kicked off eight new comics...back...oh, heck, I'm really dating myself now, aren't I?[/quote']

 

New Universe Ruled!

 

Sorry...

 

Please continue with the Multipower thread...

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

New Universe Ruled!

 

Sorry...

 

Please continue with the Multipower thread...

 

Continuing your digression for just a second, I bought all eight original issues, put them into mylar bags, and swore I was going to be rich one day. I left them in an cabinet at my parents house, and they were eventually thrown away if I recall correctly. That collection must be worth, what, sixty, eighty dollars today? Certainly no X-men #1...

[Fedifensor]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

New Universe Ruled!

...particularly DP 7 and Psi-Force, though the latter got a bit grim and gritty in the later issues.

 

Anyway, my thought is that the Force Wall is the biggest game-breaker. Place it in such a way that all but one of the villains is trapped...then the rest of the team concentrates fire on the lone villain outside the wall. Rinse and repeat until the bad guys are down. If one bad guy has a way around the wall...make sure he's the one on the outside when your teammates attack.

 

For some strange reason, I thought of an idea for a Duplication character called Thunderdome. One duplicate has a powerful Force Wall, the other is a gladiator build...and his quote is "Two men enter, one man leaves..."

 

Yeah, I didn't get much sleep last night.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

re: concerns about Force Wall strength

 

An Advantaged attack (can you say Penetrating) will bring it down quite easily.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I am utterly certain that my player has no idea that you can even englobe someone in a forcewall. He was looking primarily to protect others at a distance, a la Invisible Girl, I suspect. That said, it does sound like a deal breaker without some sort of "no englobing" limitation applied to it.

 

And, Fed, you don't need duplication for that, you could just have two characters, one with a ridiculous forcewall and the other a traditional brick, where the one forces single combat with the other.

 

And no, you may *not* use that against us in Catalyst: Thebes, Zac.

[Alibear]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

If he is forcewalling someone then he isn't doing something else like clobbering them or throwing them under a bus. He's using his power so it can't do something else and being stuck behind a wall is not the worst thing thatc an happen in a supers fight.

 

I would recommend that you let him play it as is but with the proviso that if it seems broken after a few game sessions you'll change it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Anyway, my thought is that the Force Wall is the biggest game-breaker. Place it in such a way that all but one of the villains is trapped...then the rest of the team concentrates fire on the lone villain outside the wall. Rinse and repeat until the bad guys are down. If one bad guy has a way around the wall...make sure he's the one on the outside when your teammates attack.

 

For some strange reason, I thought of an idea for a Duplication character called Thunderdome. One duplicate has a powerful Force Wall, the other is a gladiator build...and his quote is "Two men enter, one man leaves..."

 

Yeah, I didn't get much sleep last night.

 

re: concerns about Force Wall strength

 

An Advantaged attack (can you say Penetrating) will bring it down quite easily.

 

While I'm behind the Force Wall, I can (off the top of my head):

 

- use Indirect attacks past it

- use exotic attacks straight through it (mental, adjustment, Flash)

- recover to my heart's content

- use Find Weakness, Aid and Healing

 

Escape is possible with penetrating attacks, teleportation and desolidification.

 

I don't see this as a gamebreaker.

 

It's also Opaque to Sight, so the enemy can do whatever they want behind that Field. And a 5" long wall doesn't englobe a very big area.

[Gideon]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

If I ignore the fact that he blows point caps out of the water for the game I play I think the build is solid.

 

I would simply have to reduce everything to closer to the 50AP level which is standard for a starting character in our game. If that could be done and the character still function, I think it could be a fun build to play with and would allow it without hesitation.

 

so someone actually proposed such a boring MP?

 

If you think that is boring, you would really have issues with one of my characters.

21... X-Ray Emmissions Elemental Control 21 point reserve

39... 1) Radiation Shield: Force Field: 20PD/20ED, 0End (+1/2)

21... 2) Wave Propulsion: Flight: 17", 1/2 End (+1/4)

 

50... X-Ray emmissions Multipower: 50 reserve, Personal Immunity(+1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)

5u... 1) Low Yield Burst Energy Blast: 10d6, Personal Immunity(+1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) (50 Active Points)

5u... 2) Hard Radiation Blast: RKA: 3d6, Personal Immunity(+1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) (45 Active Points)

5u... 3) Targeted Irradiation: EB: 5d6, No Normal Defense (+1), Personal Immunity(+1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) (50 Active Points)

 

12... Radioactive Blood: Life Support: Safe Environment: High Radiation, Immunity: Disease and Biowarfare

10... X-Ray Vision

Everything else is Stats and skills, and his stats only cost 126 pts.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

While I'm behind the Force Wall, I can (off the top of my head):

 

- use Indirect attacks past it

- use exotic attacks straight through it (mental, adjustment, Flash)

- recover to my heart's content

- use Find Weakness, Aid and Healing

 

Escape is possible with penetrating attacks, teleportation and desolidification.

 

I don't see this as a gamebreaker.

 

So what you're saying is, be prepared for him to try it, rather than making it unavailable to him. Maybe even make him successful with it once or twice, and then burn him with a teleporter or someone with a penetrating attack...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Yeah' date=' that's potentially an issue...we don't have an established campaign norms - I didn't tell them anything about what to expect because the campaign is one where there has been NO previous history of supers - until one set point, and then supers of all types start happening - sorta like Marvel's "White Event" that kicked off eight new comics...back...oh, heck, I'm really dating myself now, aren't I?[/quote']

 

I don't think "there have never been any Supers" and "there are no campaign norms" are necessarily synonyms. Without norms, there is a risk of wide disparity in power levels which will frustrate players and GM's alike. With 350 points, I could build a "Standard Super" - say 12 DC and 20 defenses with 5 SPD. Or I could buy a very versatile character in the 9 DC, 12 defenses low powered supers range. Or I could bulk up a 15 DC, 30 defenses high power character. Throw those three PC's in the same game and watch frustration ensue.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I don't think "there have never been any Supers" and "there are no campaign norms" are necessarily synonyms. Without norms' date=' there is a risk of wide disparity in power levels which will frustrate players and GM's alike. With 350 points, I could build a "Standard Super" - say 12 DC and 20 defenses with 5 SPD. Or I could buy a very versatile character in the 9 DC, 12 defenses low powered supers range. Or I could bulk up a 15 DC, 30 defenses high power character. Throw those three PC's in the same game and watch frustration ensue.[/quote']

 

That's really not what I wanted to hear. I'm actually considering allowing players to play different power levels, so that we have some Heroic normals interspersed with honest to goodness Supers. A bit more Watchmen than X-Men if you follow.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

For the same points, he could have an EC with the same OIF having:

 

30 STR TK, fine manipulation, 1/2 END

11d6 TK EB, 1/2 END

18" Flight, x4 Noncombat, Position Shift, 0 END

+23/+23 Force Field, 0 END

+9/+9 Force Wall, 5" long, 2" High, 1/2 END

 

and a 30 point Mulirpower with standard slots of:

 

+20 STR TK

+6d6 EB

+7" Flight, 2 more NCM doublings, 1/2 END

+12/+12 Force Field, 1/2 END

+6/+6 Force Wall

 

Same OIF Diadem on everything.

 

This would allow for less power at the extremes, but considerably more versatility. The EC could be reduced and the Multipower enhanced to provide more choice, and lower end power as a base, to fine tune. Cut the EC to 22 and base the powers on 43.75 AP to 45 AP, and the MP can be much larger.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

This would allow for less power at the extremes, but considerably more versatility. The EC could be reduced and the Multipower enhanced to provide more choice, and lower end power as a base, to fine tune. Cut the EC to 22 and base the powers on 43.75 AP to 45 AP, and the MP can be much larger.

 

That is, I must admit, a clever build. I've already tweaked it as you suggested, and wound up with powers that could be wildly over the top, without sacrificing too many other abilities, and may recommend it to him.

[Pariah]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

For the same points, he could have an EC with the same OIF having:

 

 

and a 30 point Mulirpower with standard slots of:

 

 

Same OIF Diadem on everything.

 

That is an interesting build. Wouldn't that technically require special GM permission, though? (i.e., One Power Framework adding to another?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

That is an interesting build. Wouldn't that technically require special GM permission' date=' though? (i.e., One Power Framework adding to another?)[/quote']

 

Technically true. I'd be inclined to waive that prohibition unless I found a problematic use of the blended framework.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Anybody know how to convince Hero Designer to make a power additive, like you recommend for the Multipower?

[Mr. R]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

That's really not what I wanted to hear. I'm actually considering allowing players to play different power levels' date=' so that we have some Heroic normals interspersed with honest to goodness Supers. A bit more [i']Watchmen[/i] than X-Men if you follow.

 

How mature are your players. Mature players can go with it as long as niche protection is held to.

 

In the comics Thor and the Falcon can coexist because writer fiat.

 

Go up to a group and tell them one will be that uber powerhouse (18d6 attacks) and the other a Watchman level normal (8d6 max) and watch the green eyed monster rear its head. If given a choice most of us want to play Thor, very few the Falcon.

 

So in the interest of your sanity and happiness set some ground levels:

Dex

Spd

Defences

Damage classes

 

Let them move them around but keep to those levels.

 

Example in my last campaign we had the following

Dex 21-24

Spd 4-5

Defences 25-30 pd/25-30 ed

Damage 10-12 DC

 

These can be shifted but at the cost of others. So Damage 16 DC, sure. Now lower something else by similar amounts, so Dex 12-15 or Spd 2-3 or def at around 15/ed or a combination.

 

So your guy has a TK of 18d6 and 50pd/ed. OK Dex 10 Spd 2 and even then I would balk.

 

So Step 1

Set your caps and stick to them. Later as your group matures and get used to each other then you can broaden them.

 

Two good references are Gestalt by Mr. Bennie. Check out his power level section with dex, spd, def, and DC caps. Another is an article called Pointless Champions, which shows the author's experiment with wildly differing point levels like those found in comics. But to reiterate he has a Mature group.

 

Otherwise good luck.

[Trebuchet]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I'd be inclined to allow such a build provided the player understands that approval is provisional and that the GM reserves the right to require changes (or even another character) if the character proves unbalanced or causes friction with other players in play. Even a totally legal build can be disruptive or unbalancing within a campaign.

 

We have a character with a 95 point VPP in our group and he has not been unbalancing, but that's because his player is careful not to push the boundaries. We have a good gaming group, but I wouldn't recommend this for everyone. It really depends on how mature and cooperative your players are.

[pinecone]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

That's really not what I wanted to hear. I'm actually considering allowing players to play different power levels' date=' so that we have some Heroic normals interspersed with honest to goodness Supers. A bit more [i']Watchmen[/i] than X-Men if you follow.

 

It can be done, but it requires work, and the cooperation of the players...I've been in games where the low power detective is getting his "shine" on, when the powerhouse blows up a building, because someone else is getting spot light time...

[Vulcan]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

It can be done' date=' but it requires work, and the cooperation of the players...I've been in games where the low power detective is getting his "shine" on, when the powerhouse blows up a building, because someone else is getting spot light time...[/quote']

 

...and then the detectve turns Powerhouse over to PRIMUS for destruction of property.

 

There are genre conventions for a reason, and blowing up a random building because the player is bored is NOT ONE OF THEM.

[ghost-angel]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Looks interesting, I'd allow it with a provision, "hey if it's going to start breaking the game we might tone it down."

 

150 is a lot of AP to utilize, but it's such a narrowly defined powerset I've a feeling it'd work out rather nicely in a game.

 

I don't think, if it was causing problems I'd force a rebuild, I'd just start dialing down the Active Points until the problems become less of an issue, or a non-issue.

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

Just to keep one of my own ridiculous threads going, how do you all feel about this construction? Mind you, this is a Champions game, and many of these just wouldn't work on just anybody, but it does make him remarkably flexible...

15 Cantrips: Multipower, 15-point reserve

1u 1) Blind: Sight Group Flash 3d6 (15 Active Points)

1u 2) Blink: Teleportation 5", Position Shift (15 Active Points)

1u 3) Blur: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-3 to opponent's DCV) (15 Active Points)

1u 4) Body of Rubber: Stretching 2", x4 Noncombat (15 Active Points)

1u 5) Body of Stone: Density Increase (800 kg mass, +15 STR, +3 PD/ED, -3" KB) (15 Active Points)

1u 6) Brambles: Entangle 1d6, 2 DEF (15 Active Points)

1u 7) Breathless: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points)

1u 8) Chill: Change Environment 2" radius, -2 Temperature Level Adjustment (13 Active Points)

1u 9) Costume Change: Cosmetic Transform 2d6+1 (Any currently worn outfit into any other outfit, Changing Clothes), Variable Special Effects (Any clothing; +1/4) (15 Active Points)

1u 10) Dispel Minor Magics: Dispel 4d6, Variable Special Effects (Any one magic power, one at a time; +1/4) (15 Active Points)

1u 11) Distant Fingers: Telekinesis (3 STR), Fine Manipulation (15 Active Points)

1u 12) Distant Hand: Telekinesis (10 STR) (15 Active Points)

1u 13) Ennervate: Aid END 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 14) Feather Fall: Gliding 15" (15 Active Points)

1u 15) Giant Size: Growth (+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, -3" KB, 800 kg, -2 DCV, +2 PER Rolls to perceive character, 4 m tall, 2 m wide) (15 Active Points)

1u 16) Healing: Healing BODY 1d6, Ranged (+1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 17) Hide Minds: Darkness to Mental Group 3" radius (15 Active Points)

1u 18) Impart Wisdom: Aid INT 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 19) Invisible Wall: Force Wall (3 PD; 2" long and 1" tall), Transparent to ED Attacks (+1/2) (14 Active Points)

1u 20) Lighter than Air: Flight 5", Position Shift (15 Active Points)

1u 21) Limited Invisibility: Invisibility to Hearing Group and Normal Sight (15 Active Points)

1u 22) Little Lightning: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (15 Active Points)

1u 23) Long Jump: Leaping 10" (Accurate) (15 Active Points)

1u 24) Magic Missile: Energy Blast 2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 25) Mind Meld: Mind Link , Human class of minds, Any Willing Target (15 Active Points)

1u 26) Pugilism: Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6 (15 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

1u 27) Read Thoughts: Telepathy 3d6 (Human class of minds) (15 Active Points)

1u 28) Revive: Healing STUN 1d6, Ranged (+1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 29) Shimmering Aura: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED/5 Power Defense) (15 Active Points)

1u 30) Shocking Grasp: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR) (15 Active Points)

1u 31) Sicken: Drain CON 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 32) Spider Climb: Clinging (25 STR) (15 Active Points)

1u 33) Steal Energy: Transfer 1d6 (END to STR) (15 Active Points)

1u 34) Steel Skin: Armor (7 PD/3 ED) (15 Active Points)

1u 35) Stolen Strength: Absorption 2d6 (physical, STR), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1/2) (15 Active Points)

1u 36) Suggestion: Mind Control 3d6 (Human class of minds) (15 Active Points)

1u 37) Surefoot: Running +5" (6"/11" total), x4 Noncombat (15 Active Points)

1u 38) Terminal Velocity: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (15 Active Points); OIF (Objects of Opportunity; -1/2)

1u 39) Tiger Claws: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR) (15 Active Points)

1u 40) Tongue of Flame: Energy Blast 3d6 (15 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 55

 

ETA: This is what I get when I suggest he not use a VPP because who wants to build all those powers...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

I'd allow it. Heck, he's paying more points using a multipower than he would using a VPP.

 

example:

 

36 Cantrips: Variable Power Pool, 15 base + 21 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (36 Active Points)

[Notes: Essentially a multipower with an infinite # of slots]

[jwpacker]

Re: You. Make. The Call.

 

He started out with only 20 slots, at which point it was less useful than a VPP, but also a point cheaper, and less likely to cause problems. Then he just went ape-dookie and added all the rest.

 

In a heroic game, this would be a real doozy.