Too many stats in Hero

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

Say you want to roll play a fight between Batman and Superman. Who wins? It would go something like this:

 

"Batman wins! He's much cooler than Superman!"

 

"No way dude! Superman can do all kindsa Cool Stuff!"

 

"Dude, Superman's all funky! Way funky!"

 

"So what! He can do all the Cool Stuff!"

 

"Batman has his Cool Junk! His Cool Junk is way cooler than Superman's Cool Stuff! He can use it to take out Superman, 'cause Superman is Funky!"

 

(player and GM start punching each other)

 

 

But you won't have the argument if Cooplness is statted out - we'll be able to see who has the higher Coolness! We need to ditch all the rules.

 

We don't need any stats at all. RPG's only have rules because, somewhere along the line, we lost the ability to play "let's pretend" backed solely with our own imaginations.

 

And all RPG's really are is a game of "Let's Pretend" with structure!

 

So, we get back no "no rules" RPG's and we get all the advantages Oddhat describes, plus more! And best of all IT'S FREE!

[Rene]

Originally posted by OddHat

We can get rid of everything and just use one stat: Coolness. Your character's Coolness is all you really need to know anyway.

 

That was funny

 

But I didn't meant to say HERO was "broken" or something, if that is what you're reacting against (or maybe you're just making a joke for the sheer pleasure of making a joke, if that is the case, forgive me).

 

It was just a intelectual exercise: "If I absolutely had to get rid of some Stats to make the game simpler, without sacrificing much definition, what would I do"? And to say I disagreed with the original poster about how I'd go about it.

 

But I'm mostly pretty happy with HERO the way it is.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Rene

That was funny

 

But I didn't meant to say HERO was "broken" or something, if that is what you're reacting against (or maybe you're just making a joke for the sheer pleasure of making a joke, if that is the case, forgive me).

 

I'm just joking. I've played and enjoyed a bunch of minimalist systems.

 

Originally posted by Rene

It was just a intelectual exercise: "If I absolutely had to get rid of some Stats to make the game simpler, without sacrificing much definition, what would I do"? And to say I disagreed with the original poster about how I'd go about it.

 

But I'm mostly pretty happy with HERO the way it is.

 

As was mentioned elsewhere and in the skills thread, Hero is a textured system. You can drop stats and it will still work; GURPS does fine with four stats, and BESM is a great game with three. Any game can work well with a good group of players, and you'll always need to tweak the rules to suit your style of play.

 

The problem with minimalist systems (if there is one) is that the stats you drop will almost always start to creep back in. GURPS drops the separation between CON and BOD in favor of HT (which defaults to equal yout Hit Points), the separation between INT and EGO in favor of IQ (Which also gives you your Will), and the separation between STR and END in favor of ST (which gives you your fatigue). DEX is DX. Stun and REC vanish and are replaced by HT rolls to avoid being knocked out and a base rate of recovering fatigue, and PD and ED merge into DR (which is always resistant). Speed works differently and is hidden away from the other stats, but is still a figured stat.

 

So from the begining a "simple" four stat system is really a seven stat system with the three figured stats sneaking in there, or an eight stat system once you add in DR. Want to simulate a particular genre like Super Heroes and you'll end up adding back in more stats in the form of advantages.

 

At which point you might as well have just started with a nice long stat list up front.

 

So, my serious reaction to your idea is cool, you can make things simpler up front and move what were stats in the skills / talents / powers list. It works fine.

 

I prefer a bit more out in the open.

[Rene]

Originally posted by OddHat

So, my serious reaction to your idea is cool, you can make things simpler up front and move what were stats in the skills / talents / powers list. It works fine.

 

I prefer a bit more out in the open.

 

 

Yes, I guess you're right.

 

It's really just a matter of convincing newbies the game is simpler without changing it in any substancial way. You just move Figured Characteristics into later Chapters.

 

It's basically what GURPS and D&D do. I guess it helps to smooth the learning curve, because it gives less stuff for newbies to know right away.

[Ron]

Originally posted by OddHat

[...]The problem with minimalist systems (if there is one) is that the stats you drop will almost always start to creep back in. GURPS drops the separation between CON and BOD in favor of HT (which defaults to equal yout Hit Points), the separation between INT and EGO in favor of IQ (Which also gives you your Will), and the separation between STR and END in favor of ST (which gives you your fatigue). DEX is DX. Stun and REC vanish and are replaced by HT rolls to avoid being knocked out and a base rate of recovering fatigue, and PD and ED merge into DR (which is always resistant). Speed works differently and is hidden away from the other stats, but is still a figured stat.

 

So from the begining a "simple" four stat system is really a seven stat system with the three figured stats sneaking in there, or an eight stat system once you add in DR. Want to simulate a particular genre like Super Heroes and you'll end up adding back in more stats in the form of advantages.

[...]

 

You're right. But I hope that you also appreciate the beauty in such design. You have four stats as a standard and, when needed, you can add three more and get seven. In this way, many characters can be described with less numbers. One of the reasons HERO has so many stats is Champions focus in superheroes. For people like me who uses HERO much more often in heroic campaigns, some stats such as PD and ED, which are very useful in super games, look superflous.

[badger3k]

Too Many stats?

 

Hero showing its age? Maybe, but I see that as a sign of its Strength. I've played Champions since 83 (at least), played the precursers of GURPS (The Fantasy Trip as well as Melee and Wizard), Chivalry and Sorcery, Runequest, etc, etc etc (I lost count after 40 or so). Given my experiences, and in my opinion, Hero has a good combination of stats. Adding more can add to the complexity of the game (or might not), while removing stats and bunching them together takes away some of the distinctions. To me to few stats end up with everyone feeling like they're the same character (despite disads and all).

 

Also, remember that GURPS really started out with just Strength and Dexterity, then added Intelligence, and that was in the late 70s. Today they basically have the same stats. A sign of age or something that works? To me it's an okay system, but is too basic for my taste. Mutants and Masterminds, while a credible effort for a basically bad system for superheroes (d20 does not form a good base for a superhero game), it is basically Champions for d20. It's not a bad system, but after playing it I'll stick with the original system.

 

Why do the change though. For one point of the new Body you just made STR cost 2 points, and INT and EGO stats cast 1.5 point each. Getting rid of SPD would do what? While the initiative system used in 3e (and 3.5) is workable, it is vastly different than the SPD system (that's assuming you'd use a system like that, or else just use DEX). You'd also change all the rules that work on phases or turn (or post 12 recovery) - basically you redo the whole time system as well. Hmm - although I suppose you can just use 1 phase = 1 round translation with everybody moving the same. Where's the advantage there? I (and the others I know who play) have never had any problems with the system as it stands, so I can't see any need to change things. Still, I'm interested to hear how you work the SPD thing.

[Markdoc]

I played around with reducing the No. of Stat.s in a fairly similar fashion and with similar goals: to make it easier for newbies to get into the game, and also to reduce the amount of GM-brainpower needed to keep things flowing. I also simplified power construction somewhat (This was in pre-FUZION days)

 

After 6 months of playng around, I went back to straight HERO system since for the first part of the equation, dropping the number of characteristics did absolutely zero to make it easier to introduce new players. Having 13 Stat.s was neither easier or harder than having 6. Characteristics have always been the easiest thing to explain to players. It didn't really help on the GM brain-power front either since I still used essentially 3 stat.s in combat: the fact that the low point goons had a bunch of extra stat.s was neither here nor there.

 

And the simplified powers satisfied no-one. Still "too hard" for many noobies, too kludgy for herophiles.

 

That's not to say others shouldn't try: I understand the impulse. But I have tried it and it is 100% not for me.

 

cheers, Mark

[Mr. Negative]

As someone mentioned GURPS (which seems to be the paragon of simplified attribute systems), I'd like to point out one thing about GURPS attributes that gets overlooked. Most "extra" attributes get moved into Advantages and Disadvantages, thus, not actually simplifying the system at all, but simply moving the complexity from one chapter to another.

 

Fatigue is based on STR (or HT), but you can buy extra fatigue (thus, you have a END score)

 

Hit Points are based on HT (or ST), but you can buy increased or decreased HP (thus, you have a body score).

 

Will Rolls are based on INT, but you have Strong and Weak Will (so you have an EGO score).

 

Reaction rolls are based off a random roll, or a INT based skill, but you have Charisma and the like (so you have a PRE score)

 

Sexual/Physical attraction is also a random roll, or a HT based skill, but you have Appearance modifiers (so you have a COM score).

 

Everyone gets one action per second, but you can buy Extra Actions (so you have a Speed score).

 

You can also buy advantages and skills that help you recover fatigue more quickly (or disads that make it slower) (so you have a REC score).

 

You also have DR (which can be bought up separately for different types of attacks) (so you basically have PD and ED).

 

GURPS, while a "simple, four stat" system, fundamentally offers you the same complexity of Attributes as HERO. While you don't have to use that complexity, there's nothing making you buy stats over 10 in HERO either. The only thing they don't offer, except as an optional rule, is a Stun score, but instead do this more like Stunning in HERO.

 

While I am a big fan of GURPS, too, I wouldn't offer it up as an exemplar of a simple Attribute system.

[Victim]

I'd say that HERO has too many skills rather than too many stats.

 

Most systems are going to have a comparable number of "stats," even if they aren't actually stats. Storyteller has 9 primary stats, Health levels (body), Soak (PD/ED), and sometimes a stat that shows how often a character's powers can be used (END). DND has 6 stats, but more special qualities like DR, and Energy resistance that are somewhat analagous to HERO stats.

[OddHat]

Too many skills?

 

You do need to try the Coolness system.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by OddHat

We can get rid of everything and just use one stat: Coolness. Your character's Coolness is all you really need to know anyway.

 

All non-gadget based powers will be replaced by one power: Cool Stuff.

 

All gadget based powers will be replaced by one power: Cool Junk.

 

This reminds me vaguely of ChampsGuys skill revision that reduced the system to two skills:

 

"Do Stuff" and "Know Stuff"

[OddHat]

Originally posted by D-Man

This reminds me vaguely of ChampsGuys skill revision that reduced the system to two skills:

 

"Do Stuff" and "Know Stuff"

 

Great! Now Coolness Hero has a skills system!

 

[Ron]

Mr. Negative, you are missing the point in relation to GURPS. Although you can have up to ten stats, most characters can go with only four., whereas in HERO you're locked with ten. As such, GURPS, unlike HERO can function at several levels of complexity, as much as each character needs.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Ron

Mr. Negative, you are missing the point in relation to GURPS. Although you can have up to ten stats, most characters can go with only four., whereas in HERO you're locked with ten. As such, GURPS, unlike HERO can function at several levels of complexity, as much as each character needs.

 

Wow, you're Brazilian! Me too. I hadn't really noticed the "Brazil" in your location. A pity I live in São Paulo, I'd love to meet other HERO System players.

[Ron]

Originally posted by Rene

Wow, you're Brazilian! Me too. I hadn't really noticed the "Brazil" in your location. A pity I live in São Paulo, I'd love to meet other HERO System players.

 

I agree. There are not many people playing HERO in Rio...

[TechnoViking]

The only stat in Hero I feel in unneeded is COM. I usually remove it and replace it with a beauty talnet or grusome appearance disadvantage.

 

Mike

[Black Rose]

I don't feel that COM is useless; or rather, I think it is now, but it doesn't need to be. If some actual rules for its use were written up, like complementary rolls for PRE skills and attacks, perhaps, it would be worth the points.

 

There was some commentary about having a much more detailed COM writeup on the old boards; I'm going to have to see if I can find it.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Black Rose

I don't feel that COM is useless; or rather, I think it is now, but it doesn't need to be. If some actual rules for its use were written up, like complementary rolls for PRE skills and attacks, perhaps, it would be worth the points.

 

There was some commentary about having a much more detailed COM writeup on the old boards; I'm going to have to see if I can find it.

 

I allow COM rolls as complementary skill rolls for PRE skills, and COM based skills. Essentially you can base any PRE skill on COM, the drawback being that you can only achieve effects that would reasonably be the result of physical attraction. A COM based seduction roll on a guard that would reasonably find you physically attractive is fine; a Seduction roll to build a friendship instead of lust would require a PRE based skill. I also allow a very limited set of COM based "attacks" using the PRE attack table, again only useful against those who would reasonably be affected by the characters physical attractiveness.

[Black Rose]

Far more detailed Comeliness structure

 

Ah, found it. You know, the Old Post Archives are not the easiest thing to look through.

 

Anyhow, here it is... with some neatening by moi.

 

Originally posted by drkrash

It goes like this. I remind readers at the outset that I GM a group that is mostly female players (interpret that as you wish).

 

Here are the nine categories:

 

Approachability: Whether someone interested in the character would believe they have a chance of actually talking to him or her.

 

Attitude: How friendly, likeable, and possibly outgoing the character is.

 

Body: Generically speaking, how healthy and/or well-built their body is.

 

Face: Generically speaking, how attractive the character's facial features are.

 

Hair: How stylish the character's hair tends to be, whether or not it fits their overall look, whether their hair is healthy or limp.

 

Highlight: The most unusual category. This refers to the possibility of some physical trait that stands out on the character. Not all characters should have one; most should not. In our campaign, we've seen breasts, legs, abs, eyes, pecs, biceps, butt, etc.

 

Magnetism: Defines the character's sensuality; the capacity to arouse interest, especially sexual interest, despite physical appearance.

 

Style: Defines the character's personal fashion flair, whether or not they dress well and appropriately for their overall look.

 

Voice: The quality of the character's voice, whether or not it is pleasant to listen to.

 

For each point of COM above 10, 1 point can be placed in one of these categories. For each point under 10, 1 point must be placed as a negative in one of these categories. A character can also choose to voluntarily take negatives in some categories to "earn" points for other categories (and vice versa). In order to keep things reasonable, unless a character has a ridiculously high COM (30+), no single category should have higher than a +3.

 

That's basically it. Our campaign is also based in Hollywood, so the ladies are all around the 20 COM range. As it happens to turn out, one of them tends to have her 20 COM defined mostly in her physical appearance, another has hers in mostly intangible qualities like magnetism, and the third has hers in mostly personality traits.

 

It's a good system that works for us. It won't change the minds of anyone who thinks COM is a wasted stat, and it won't add anything to someone who wants COM to have actual game mechanics applied to it. But if you're just detail-oriented enough to care how one 14 COM differs from another 14 COM, it works well.

 

By the way, don't try to apply this system to any of the artwork in any Hero Games product. It just can't work.

[PerennialRook]

So in drkrash's detailed comliness structure what did these new values mean/represent?

 

What happens if I have a +3 Highlight?

 

I like the general idea, however, and think it would be something interesting to incorperate with some rules. Another twist might be to give bonuses to different "comliness stats" with the regular stats.

 

For instance: for every 2 points you spend on PRE you get to Approachability, Attitude, Magnetism, or Voice, for every 2 points you spend on CON you get a +1 to Body, Face, Hair, or Highlight, for every 1/2 point you spend on COM you get a +1 to any "comliness stat," for every 3 points you spend on DEX you get a +1 to Grace (a new one I added), Body, Magnetism, or Style, etc...

 

Then you would have higher "comliness stats" and rather than having a +3 Highlight a character has a Highlight Score of 18 (base 10 plus 8 "+1's"), or a Highlight Roll of 13-, a very fine (insert physical attribute here).

 

Also, out of curiosity, where might I find drkrash's origional post?

 

-Preston

[PerennialRook]

I just realized the irony of talking about adding more stats in a thread entitled "Too many stats in Hero."

[Snarf]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

If you liked Coolness Hero, you may also like D02. It has 0 Stats, which you can expand to as many as you want, and can include coolness.

[Mike W]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

I've seen people argue for a Presence Defense stat but that is about the only stat I would consider adding. I don't see a need to subtract anything either. Things balance well the way they are. Also, I particularly like keeping say, STR and CON separate. Combining them, to me, is more trouble than it's worth. For example, I ran track/cross country in high school. I could run 6 or 7 miles in 45 minutes. I'm a fast healer. I can shrug off most drugs rather quickly. This definitely sounds like a high CON character(as well as buying up REC and END). But I bench about 130. That makes for an average to below average STR. In the established system, you buy the character a few extra points of CON, reap the figured characteristic benefits and not have to mess with things much. If you've only got one "Body" stat, then you have to leave the body stat where it is(so the character's STR doesn't exceed what it should be) and individually buy up all of those other abilitilities. Same with EGO and INT. INT does affect how quickly you can pick things up and how well you can utilize information. EGO or willpower is a completely different idea. I hate games that try to make them the same stat because they are completely different ideas. You can have a weak willed genius or a strong willed guy with average intelligence. Combining stats just means you have more things to buy up.

[Al_Beddow]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Ok, I've only skimmed through all these posts but I feel the need to chime in here...

 

If you want less stats, then why don't you play GURPS or Silver Age Sentinals (Tri-Stat system), etc.

 

I think for what Hero is designed for it's got a great balance of stats... Yea it could have fewer, it could have more... but I don't think there is a system out there that makes everyone happy as written. In fact, I think the only person who would never change a system is the dude who CREATED IT.

 

So, why complain and try to change an existing system? Just find one that does what you want it to.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

As I see it, the manifold stats make sense. Consider the following examples: 1) Lou Ferigno could kick Lance Armstrong's behind, but he couldn't catch him. 2) Bruce Lee could have whipped 'em both, but he still couldn't have kept up with Armstrong or lifted Ferigno 3) Einstein could think circles around Charles Bronson, but wouldn't hold up as well under torture. 4) Neither Bronson nor Einstein could hold a crowd like Bill Clinton (hate him if you want to - the man has Presence), who is neither tough nor ingenius.