Too many stats in Hero

[JmOz]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Personaly I have added one stat, and in essence merged two in my games (Not quite but will explain)

 

I have "created" Mental Defence as a characteristic (NCM=8), functions juust like the power, but you can have 0 or negative points in it, and has an NCM limit

 

I also advice players to take Def instead of PD/ED (In otherwords I advise them to keep the numbers the same, though they do appear as PD/ED on sheets) I also advise them to make it divisiable by 5. These are just speed up tricks for the game IMO

[Solomon]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Given HERO's toolkit approach, adding and removing stats is de facto already an option for any group. Characteristics can be bough with limitations or, where appropriate, even with advantages. Thus the feature to "brach" or customize characteristics is already a standard feature of HERO.

 

Lumping togheter characteristics is simply a matter of ruling that, for instance, in your campaign characters should have CON=BODY. There are, however, game balance issues. Having a single stat that governs the realms of STR, BODY and CON, as Tetsujun28 suggest, is feasible but makes STR not cost-efficient when compared with other attack powers. It might be a non-issue in heroic games, but it would matter in superheroic games. Pricing STR at 6 effectively rules out bricks as a viable character type.

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Ok, I've only skimmed through all these posts but I feel the need to chime in here...

 

If you want less stats, then why don't you play GURPS or Silver Age Sentinals (Tri-Stat system), etc.

 

I think for what Hero is designed for it's got a great balance of stats... Yea it could have fewer, it could have more... but I don't think there is a system out there that makes everyone happy as written. In fact, I think the only person who would never change a system is the dude who CREATED IT.

 

So, why complain and try to change an existing system? Just find one that does what you want it to.

 

But none of them do what I want! Just like no politican stands for my beliefs completely.

 

Although I'm making a broad statement in that first sentence, it's basically true. By the same token, I could play many games "as is" with no alterations, HERO definitely one of them.

 

I like to tinker - it's fun. I'll be the first to admit that no matter what the system, including anything I've written, I would make changes. I think HERO attracts a lot of people like that - it's HERO's charm.

 

Of course, also, there can be things that one feels are outright broken in a game, even seriously, while the rest of the system is fine. It's certainly foolish in that case to keep searching for another system if it's something that can be discreetly fixed.

 

Did I answer your "why complain"?

[Badger]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Being good at math during my school days, the large number of characteristics dont bother me much. I could see combining the defenses into a single stat (with some disadvantages and such to show how a person might be affected less or more by one or the other) and I dont see much use in PRE and COM except for extreme circumstances (they arent really needed much if roleplayed properly). I wouldnt mind seeing an IQ stat so we could have an easier time figuring out the geniuses and dummies. But I do admit some things can be intimidating. If it wasnt for HERO Designer I'd have a time figuring out how much some of my powers would cost sometimes. But then again some math in real life is mysterious to me (I still have a time figuring out interest rates)

 

Basically I like this system more than others I've tried. And all games will have flaws mo matter how hard they are worked at.

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

(snip) I dont see much use in PRE and COM except for extreme circumstances (they arent really needed much if roleplayed properly).

 

The thing is, some people aren't charismatic or outgoing enough to play these well. The numbers help them and relying on dice rolls isn't so bad, particularly as many people just can't do some types of characterizations well but want to play that type of character. I think arguing against them doing so or penalizing them for not being strong of voice or quick of wit detracts from the fantasy element of our hobby. IM-not-so-HO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

I dont see much use in PRE and COM except for extreme circumstances (they arent really needed much if roleplayed properly).

 

I agree with Zornwil. I find players who take low stats in these areas (PRE/COM in Hero, Charisma in That Other System) and then complain that "they role played the interaction well" so they should get an advantage have missed a salient point. It is not you making the speech, it is your character. Your (the player's) speech was eloquent and stirring. But your character with the 8 PRE and 6 COM just isn't capable of giving such a rising speech.

 

If you want the ability, pay the points!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

I agree with Zornwil. I find players who take low stats in these areas (PRE/COM in Hero, Charisma in That Other System) and then complain that "they role played the interaction well" so they should get an advantage have missed a salient point. It is not you making the speech, it is your character. Your (the player's) speech was eloquent and stirring. But your character with the 8 PRE and 6 COM just isn't capable of giving such a rising speech.

 

If you want the ability, pay the points!

 

In my opinion, it's not they lack of necessary stats, it's the lack of role-playing the character properly. If you've got low PRE/COM, or even average, you just can't give a charismatic, crowd swaying speach. If you do, you're not playing the character. Sure you could try, and maybe someone nearby who is charismatic will listen and then get everyone's attention for you (end of Revenge of the Nerds). And even then you've only got the crowd's attention as long as Mr Charisma is there to hold it for you.

[tesuji]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

The way i do it...

 

I give a bonus to a scene for when the player does it well, roleplays the scene well... so the player who makes a good reasonable argument gets a bonus while the player who doesn't or rather who gives a senseless argument gets no bonus and perhaps a penalty. Whether holding a crowds attention or convincing someone to do what you want or lock picking the door or checking for traps... good decisions help and poor decisions hurt.

 

This bonus or penalty is applied to the mechanical check for success failure and results.

 

So the smooth talker player with a low pre character will get a favorable adjustment now and again, but he still pays for his stat deficiency by that not overriding his stats, just modifying the odds somewhat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

The way i do it...

 

I give a bonus to a scene for when the player does it well, roleplays the scene well... so the player who makes a good reasonable argument gets a bonus while the player who doesn't or rather who gives a senseless argument gets no bonus and perhaps a penalty. Whether holding a crowds attention or convincing someone to do what you want or lock picking the door or checking for traps... good decisions help and poor decisions hurt.

 

This bonus or penalty is applied to the mechanical check for success failure and results.

 

So the smooth talker player with a low pre character will get a favorable adjustment now and again, but he still pays for his stat deficiency by that not overriding his stats, just modifying the odds somewhat.

 

This depends on how far the matter is taken. If the result is that an eloquent player who posits intelligent arguments for his case, but has an 8 INT/8 PRE character, generally needs the same roll for success as a player who is less eloquent and doesn't tailor the case to the audience at that level, but has a character with 18 INT and 18 PRE, then the first player is being allowed to override the points he saved by role playing the character poorly.

 

If, on the other hand, these bonuses are rare and in character (eg. the 8 PRE, but 23 INT, superscientist occasionally realizes just the right thing to say which proves his argument to the crowd, then notwithstanding he may not be very impressive, his irrefutable argument may just carry the day), then I don't see the same problem.

 

If the bonuses for being an eloquent player are going to cancel out the penalties for a poor stat (or penalties for being an eloquent player will cancel bonuses for good stats), then it's probably better to just eliminate all these stats and play based on each character having the persuasiveness and mental acuity of his player.

[nHammer]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

This is a continuation of a theme that started in the Fantasy Hero forum. In an effort not to hijack that thread, it has been moved here.

 

My idea was to fold STR, CON, and BODY into one stat ("BODY") costing six points, and INT and EGO into "MIND", costing 3 points. PD & ED would be based on the same stat, although they could be modified individually. SPD was eliminated.

 

But I have to disagree with you, and I think that your analysis is a simplistic way of looking at the problem I felt needed to be solved. First, Hero INT has never been a measure of cognitive ability, but rather how fast one reacts to situations. This is why Perception rolls used to be based on INT, but Sciences weren't. In fact, this is mentioned in the flavor text (FRED pg. 23): someone with a low INT could be a brilliant scientist, he just can't come up with things right now. Second, eliminating INT was simply my way of dealing with the fact that people can't roleplay subtle differences in intelligence. Realistically, someone can play: themselves, someone dumber than themselves, someone really dumb, and with the help of skills and other gaming tools, someone way smarter than themselves. One or two points of difference in the INT stat is a false statistic, and is only there for metagaming purposes. Pendragon, one of my favourite games, doesn't have any sort of intelligence statistic.

 

Want someone really smart with a low "EGO", using my system? Easy - just make MIND fairly average, and buy a lot of skill levels with "smart skills". Conversely, if you want someone of average intelligence with great Ego powers, just up their EGO CV.

 

Regarding the physical characteristics, I think that what you're describing is a consequence of "Heroese", rather than any verisimilitude. Most people with a higher physical endurance are also stronger and capable of taking more physical punishment. And it's difficult to be stronger than normal, but have a poor constitution. Those that do, can easily be represented by 1)reducing END (strong, but has asthma or the like); or 2)physical disads. The same argument has always held true for drains and the like. It's silly to just drain someone's "BODY" without affecting their STR or CON. As people get ill, they get weak.

 

 

Hero already does things the way you suggest would be bad for the game: there is no functional difference between an EB and martial arts, once you take away the lims that make each up.

 

And finally, by only having four characteristics rather than eight, and only four figured CHAs instead of six, it cuts the characteristic work for new players. Which I think is more important than anything else. Again, I think the age of Chivalry and Sorcery-style never-ending lists of characteristics is long past.

 

 

If you're playing this way, you're not playing the Hero System.

 

If people want to change everything, why don't they just make their own game?

[tesuji]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

 

This depends on how far the matter is taken. If the result is that an eloquent player who posits intelligent arguments for his case, but has an 8 INT/8 PRE character, generally needs the same roll for success as a player who is less eloquent and doesn't tailor the case to the audience at that level, but has a character with 18 INT and 18 PRE, then the first player is being allowed to override the points he saved by role playing the character poorly.

Huh?

 

Eloquent player with pre/int 13 paid 6 pts and also handled the pitch well... he has a base 12- plus say +2 for good choices... he has a 14- chance to succeed.

 

Same guy with 8's... same +2... now he has an 11- plus 2 for a 13-.

 

So, the lower stats, they cost him a -1 to his chance.

 

Isn't that exactly what they do in every other case?

 

If your concern is that the difference between 14- and 13- is not as big as the difference between 12- and 11-, try a non-3d6 task system.

 

 

If the bonuses for being an eloquent player are going to cancel out the penalties for a poor stat (or penalties for being an eloquent player will cancel bonuses for good stats), then it's probably better to just eliminate all these stats and play based on each character having the persuasiveness and mental acuity of his player.

 

OK, unless one of us is crazy, there is still a -1 difference between the players chances based on his stats. Same event without low stats is +1 more likely to succeed. pay less points (enough to adjust the prob...) and have a lower chance of success. That seems pretty simple and, color me simple, but seems very much not a leap into "go statless" land.

 

maybe i should express this more in HEROspeak?

 

page 28 lists skill modifiers based on how difficult the task is...

 

it will be less difficult to persuade someone to do something that sounds reasonable, and thus, describing something more reasonable will likely produce a different modifier, perhaps 1-3 points to the good, than describing something that sounds unreasonable. Much in the same way that a player choosing to climb up the corner with the drain pipe might get an Easy modifier while the character who decides to freeclimb the bricks might get a less beneficial difficulty modifier... much as the character who moves to 8m might get a better chance to hit than the one who moves to 10m...

 

Do you really not have varying modifiers for the difficulty of the task (combat or otherwise) in your games? Do you not allow player choices, character action, to affect these chances?

 

If one guy bought +2 range skill levels while another guy bought no such levels BUT that guy always moves to within 4" so he never "pays the price" for not buying ranged skill levels do you feel the urge to go to a rangeless system?

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

 

 

Huh?

 

Eloquent player with pre/int 13 paid 6 pts and also handled the pitch well... he has a base 12- plus say +2 for good choices... he has a 14- chance to succeed.

 

Same guy with 8's... same +2... now he has an 11- plus 2 for a 13-.

 

So, the lower stats, they cost him a -1 to his chance.

 

Isn't that exactly what they do in every other case?

 

If your concern is that the difference between 14- and 13- is not as big as the difference between 12- and 11-, try a non-3d6 task system.

 

 

 

 

OK, unless one of us is crazy, there is still a -1 difference between the players chances based on his stats. Same event without low stats is +1 more likely to succeed. pay less points (enough to adjust the prob...) and have a lower chance of success. That seems pretty simple and, color me simple, but seems very much not a leap into "go statless" land.

 

maybe i should express this more in HEROspeak?

 

page 28 lists skill modifiers based on how difficult the task is...

 

it will be less difficult to persuade someone to do something that sounds reasonable, and thus, describing something more reasonable will likely produce a different modifier, perhaps 1-3 points to the good, than describing something that sounds unreasonable. Much in the same way that a player choosing to climb up the corner with the drain pipe might get an Easy modifier while the character who decides to freeclimb the bricks might get a less beneficial difficulty modifier... much as the character who moves to 8m might get a better chance to hit than the one who moves to 10m...

 

Do you really not have varying modifiers for the difficulty of the task (combat or otherwise) in your games? Do you not allow player choices, character action, to affect these chances?

 

If one guy bought +2 range skill levels while another guy bought no such levels BUT that guy always moves to within 4" so he never "pays the price" for not buying ranged skill levels do you feel the urge to go to a rangeless system?

 

Player choices should affect chances, but should not to the extent that having an 8 PRE nonetheless most of the time is effectively the same as a 13 PRE. Sometimes, particularly if the player uses a clever idea that does NOT depend on his character's PRE, yes, but it should not be the norm, or the PC should simply have a 13 PRE, lest the Player be metagaming the PC.

 

As to your last paragraph, I can't buy that comparison as the movement closer requires the character to actually do something physical that is in the PC's wherwithall. Always speaking more eloquent than you are - without a specific skill or other compensatory game mechanic - is pure metagaming.

[tesuji]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

 

Player choices should affect chances, but should not to the extent that having an 8 PRE nonetheless most of the time is effectively the same as a 13 PRE. Sometimes, particularly if the player uses a clever idea that does NOT depend on his character's PRE, yes, but it should not be the norm, or the PC should simply have a 13 PRE, lest the Player be metagaming the PC.

 

As to your last paragraph, I can't buy that comparison as the movement closer requires the character to actually do something physical that is in the PC's wherwithall. Always speaking more eloquent than you are - without a specific skill or other compensatory game mechanic - is pure metagaming.

 

Ok lets say i buy into this notion.

 

What skills or stats should a character have to buy for his player to not be metagaming when he chooses to move to the range breaks instead of short of them, often giving himself 2 less penalty in his attack? Which ones do you REQUIRE in actual play in your games for this?

 

What skills or stats should a player have to buy for his player to make other tactically correct and competent decisions and not be considered metagaming? Say for instance a character who uses cover well, a character who lines up his attacks so they do knockback into hard objects and thus get full knockback damage, or who makes good decisions about preferrable targets, such as using fire against an ice guy or mental attacks against a speedster with high DCV? Which ones do you REQUIRE if the player is expecting he will be permitted to use these choices?

 

What about the using of held actions to milk the speed chart? Which character traits need to be bought, or not bought off, to do that without being a "metagamer"?

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Ok lets say i buy into this notion.

 

What skills or stats should a character have to buy for his player to not be metagaming when he chooses to move to the range breaks instead of short of them, often giving himself 2 less penalty in his attack? Which ones do you REQUIRE in actual play in your games for this?

 

Why buy any? It's the most elemental knowledge in the world, "I'm bad at range, must close", which is (usually) risky. Seems like a good tradeoff. I would tend to look askance at a low-INT character who employs such tactics though.

 

What skills or stats should a player have to buy for his player to make other tactically correct and competent decisions and not be considered metagaming? Say for instance a character who uses cover well, a character who lines up his attacks so they do knockback into hard objects and thus get full knockback damage, or who makes good decisions about preferrable targets, such as using fire against an ice guy or mental attacks against a speedster with high DCV? Which ones do you REQUIRE if the player is expecting he will be permitted to use these choices?

 

What about the using of held actions to milk the speed chart? Which character traits need to be bought, or not bought off, to do that without being a "metagamer"?

 

Good questions, , although, again, for THESE examples, a low INT character (who otherwise lacks Tactics, let's say) would be a candidate for "reeling in". And otherwise I have little concern. You see, the thing is that while I know where you're going (extra actions in SPD, specialized maneuvers that may or may not be too clever for a player), and I agree that it's not a simple matter as we get closer to more problematic real-world examples, the thing is that what you describe belongs for the most part in any superheroic game - PCs seem to "just know what to do". But when a PC - or a leading character in a flim - has a known low characteristic/weakness, we EXPECT him to fail some portion of the time, and to the degree it is more often comic relief (at least that's been my experience with 8 CHAR PCs). Do we see the low-CHAR character succeed "in the crunch"? Surely! And I have no issue with that - dramatic license is an important part of HERO.

[Javed]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

This is a continuation of a theme that started in the Fantasy Hero forum. In an effort not to hijack that thread, it has been moved here.

 

My idea was to fold STR, CON, and BODY into one stat ("BODY") costing six points, and INT and EGO into "MIND", costing 3 points. PD & ED would be based on the same stat, although they could be modified individually. SPD was eliminated.

 

 

I;'ve gone through all the posts, and I don't think these points have been brought up yet.

 

You say you fold STR, CON and BODY into a single Stat worth 6 points per point.

 

1) How does this affect BODY damage? From what was posted, it would seem that every point of BODY done also costs a point of STR and a point of CON. This will cause some pretty serious ramifications.

 

2) By the same token, weakness darts are now lethal attacks since they affect BODY, and hence can kill their targets instead of just weakening them.

 

3) What are you doing to adjustment powers? It will now cost three to six times as much to get an equivalent effect on the physical stats and 1.5 to three times as much on the mental. Even if you put limitations on the power to show that it is only affecting one part of the new stat, you still have problems with active points. You can't just change the active point cost of the power since DEX, PRE and other stats remain the same.

 

Curious to read how you handle these issues in your games.

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Tesuji's work sometimes makes me think of using some of those to make my own HERO Lite, a game of lightning-fast mechanics and more fudgy (RPing) play. Something like I was hoping from M&M (and to be fair M&M does accomplish some of those goals quite well).

 

But can you say Fuzion? That went over like a lead baloon.

 

Well, I do need to study the Fuzion stuff. Lemming was kind enough to loan it to me. I think I"ll look at it tonight, hope i don't fall asleep. This flu is weird, one moment I'm wide awake and raring to go, the next I'm dead as a doornail.

[dataweaver]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

The only problem with Fuzion (in terms of Champions) was that Champions: the New Millenium didn't have a sufficiently flexible Powers system. Other than that, it was at least as good as Hero System (and, in many ways, is the one that I prefer). Especially since the Powers system has been addressed quite nicely by Jason Dour's "Heroic Abilities" add-on - google for it.

 

As for "too many stats": I disagree. The problem is that Hero System's characteristics are poorly organized. Restructure into two sets of Primary Characteristics: Physical (STR, DEX, CON, BODY) and Mental (INT, EGO, PRE). Replace Comeliness with an Appearance Perquisite patterned after Reputation; STR and PRE are analogs of each other (except for PRE's participation in Interaction skills); INT can be treated as a mental analog of DEX (I'd base ECV off of INT instead of EGO), while EGO can be treated as a mental analog of CON. All you need to complete the symmetry is a mental analog of BODY - call it MIND, and use it in a manner similar to Sanity in Call of Cthulu. In terms of Figured Characteristics, Presence Defense can be revised to conform to the same type of mechanics as Mental Defense; it then becomes the mental analog of Physical Defense, while Mental Defense becomes the mental analog of Energy Defense. Adjust SPD, REC, END, and STUN so that their formulae are derived evenly from both sides of the split.

 

End result: you have even more Characteristics than you did before; but the ones that you have are more structured and thus less intimidating.

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

The only problem with Fuzion (in terms of Champions) was that Champions: the New Millenium didn't have a sufficiently flexible Powers system. Other than that' date=' it was at least as good as Hero System (and, in many ways, is the one that I prefer). Especially since the Powers system has been addressed quite nicely by Jason Dour's "Heroic Abilities" add-on - google for it. [/quote']

 

Thanks much, will do! Have added it to my mile-long to-do list!

 

As for "too many stats": I disagree. The problem is that Hero System's characteristics are poorly organized. Restructure into two sets of Primary Characteristics: Physical (STR, DEX, CON, BODY) and Mental (INT, EGO, PRE). Replace Comeliness with an Appearance Perquisite patterned after Reputation; STR and PRE are analogs of each other (except for PRE's participation in Interaction skills); INT can be treated as a mental analog of DEX (I'd base ECV off of INT instead of EGO), while EGO can be treated as a mental analog of CON. All you need to complete the symmetry is a mental analog of BODY - call it MIND, and use it in a manner similar to Sanity in Call of Cthulu. In terms of Figured Characteristics, Presence Defense can be revised to conform to the same type of mechanics as Mental Defense; it then becomes the mental analog of Physical Defense, while Mental Defense becomes the mental analog of Energy Defense. Adjust SPD, REC, END, and STUN so that their formulae are derived evenly from both sides of the split.

 

End result: you have even more Characteristics than you did before; but the ones that you have are more structured and thus less intimidating.

 

Personally I'm good with HERO's stats, though I'm always interested in what people have to say. I just don't think they necessarily require change. But change could be good.

 

Then again, I grouse about most HERO changes for at least 5 years before adopting them... (end of 2003 I finally went from 1 END/5 points (which I had corrupted, deliberately, to Real not Active) to 1 END/10 AP)). (to be clear, that rolling of eyes is self-directed)

[Gary]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

The only problem with Fuzion (in terms of Champions) was that Champions: the New Millenium didn't have a sufficiently flexible Powers system. Other than that, it was at least as good as Hero System (and, in many ways, is the one that I prefer). Especially since the Powers system has been addressed quite nicely by Jason Dour's "Heroic Abilities" add-on - google for it.

 

As for "too many stats": I disagree. The problem is that Hero System's characteristics are poorly organized. Restructure into two sets of Primary Characteristics: Physical (STR, DEX, CON, BODY) and Mental (INT, EGO, PRE). Replace Comeliness with an Appearance Perquisite patterned after Reputation; STR and PRE are analogs of each other (except for PRE's participation in Interaction skills); INT can be treated as a mental analog of DEX (I'd base ECV off of INT instead of EGO), while EGO can be treated as a mental analog of CON. All you need to complete the symmetry is a mental analog of BODY - call it MIND, and use it in a manner similar to Sanity in Call of Cthulu. In terms of Figured Characteristics, Presence Defense can be revised to conform to the same type of mechanics as Mental Defense; it then becomes the mental analog of Physical Defense, while Mental Defense becomes the mental analog of Energy Defense. Adjust SPD, REC, END, and STUN so that their formulae are derived evenly from both sides of the split.

 

End result: you have even more Characteristics than you did before; but the ones that you have are more structured and thus less intimidating.

 

This sounds a lot like the old DC Heroes RPG where all characters had 3 physical, 3 mental, and 3 mystic stats. All 3 sets were symetrically balanced to have 1 acting stat, 1 power stat, and 1 toughness stat.

 

Dex, Str, Body for physical

Int, Will, Mind for mental

Infl, Aura, Spirit for mystic.

[dataweaver]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

It does, doesn't it? To my mind, that's a good thing - especially considering how few changes are needed to accomplish it.

[DrFurious]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

This sounds a lot like the old DC Heroes RPG where all characters had 3 physical, 3 mental, and 3 mystic stats. All 3 sets were symetrically balanced to have 1 acting stat, 1 power stat, and 1 toughness stat.

 

Dex, Str, Body for physical

Int, Will, Mind for mental

Infl, Aura, Spirit for mystic.

A similar scheme is used in the Action! system:

There are six attributes, which are arranged in two groups: Body and Mind.

Each group contains a Power Attribute, an Aptitude Attribute and a Resistance Attribute.

New attribute groups can be added, providing more variety and additional attributes for characters, but the core rules use only these two.

The three attributes that define a character’s “body†or physical being are Health, Strength, and Reflexes.

The three attributes that define the character’s “mind†or mental and emotional being are Presence, Intellect, and Will.

 

!DrFURIOUS!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Player choices should affect chances, but should not to the extent that having an 8 PRE nonetheless most of the time is effectively the same as a 13 PRE. Sometimes, particularly if the player uses a clever idea that does NOT depend on his character's PRE, yes, but it should not be the norm, or the PC should simply have a 13 PRE, lest the Player be metagaming the PC.

 

As to your last paragraph, I can't buy that comparison as the movement closer requires the character to actually do something physical that is in the PC's wherwithall. Always speaking more eloquent than you are - without a specific skill or other compensatory game mechanic - is pure metagaming.

 

 

Zornwil hits the nail on the head. Yes, bonuses to PRE skills apply iuf a chatracter has an especially persuasive argument. How often does/should an 8 INT character think of that very persuasive argument under pressure? How eloquently can an 8 PRE character present his argument? If I'm using my high player INT and PRE to offset my low Character INT and PRE, that's just bad roleplaying/metagaming.

 

"Your argument is, of course, very cogent, and your presentation as a player was flawless. Unfortunately, Mordo the Spaz has a 5 PRE, and in receiving delivery his speech, the Princess has discovered, to her disgust. that Mordo is a spitter."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

2) By the same token, weakness darts are now lethal attacks since they affect BODY, and hence can kill their targets instead of just weakening them.

 

3) What are you doing to adjustment powers? It will now cost three to six times as much to get an equivalent effect on the physical stats and 1.5 to three times as much on the mental. Even if you put limitations on the power to show that it is only affecting one part of the new stat, you still have problems with active points. You can't just change the active point cost of the power since DEX, PRE and other stats remain the same.

 

Curious to read how you handle these issues in your games.

 

The above are great examples of why I don't like tinkering with the game system. Anything beyond the most minor change often has rasmifications that aren't considered, and tend to come back to bite one at inopportune times.

 

To add another, if the SPeed chart goes away, how do we handle characters who cause others to move slower, or speed up their own actions. M & M has superspeeed and time manipulation powers, among others. Hero has SPD Aid and SPD Drain as examples. What does Hero have if we toast the SPD chart? Well, we need an all,new mechanic, so we didn't necessarily simplify the game we just changed it. It's probably simpler in some cases, and more complex in others.

[Vorsch]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

As to dropping the spd chart and how spd drains etc would work i have tried the following

 

Hth OCV DCV now based on dex/5 + spd

Ranged OCV dex/3

Ranged DCV spd or based on movement combat inches/3 ( note in my version +5" doubles your velocity with 1-10 being 1-10ms, give mach 1 at 35" DCV 12 )

Initiative based of spd + random roll, lightning reflexis at 3pt each give +1 ( spd only for initiative -2 lim basically)

 

People can attack more than once at 2 OCV penalty

 

This gives a gun weilder at close range a advantage over HTH guy ( not unreasonable )

 

Most characters will end up with the same relative CV.

 

I find new players find this more intuitive that the spd chart and some of its more Metagaming attributes, also allows for spd enhancement in a simple way ( gee this spell makes me 10 time quicker, gives +7 spd , each +2 doubles your speed just like +5str doubles your lift. character now becomes a HTH god ,but then i think being 10x faster should affect your CV not just the amount of actions you can take )

 

i call this new mechanic "combat rounds"

[zornwil]

Re: Too many stats in Hero

 

Zornwil hits the nail on the head. Yes, bonuses to PRE skills apply iuf a chatracter has an especially persuasive argument. How often does/should an 8 INT character think of that very persuasive argument under pressure? How eloquently can an 8 PRE character present his argument? If I'm using my high player INT and PRE to offset my low Character INT and PRE, that's just bad roleplaying/metagaming.

 

"Your argument is, of course, very cogent, and your presentation as a player was flawless. Unfortunately, Mordo the Spaz has a 5 PRE, and in receiving delivery his speech, the Princess has discovered, to her disgust. that Mordo is a spitter."

 

Ewww, did you have to make your point so graphically?