Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

[TikiGawd]

I've recently come up with an idea for a limitation; "Cannot Be Increased With Experience", which means an ability that simply can't improved by adding experience points to it. This could be applied to some of a character's inherent abilities, for example, 'powers' that all members of a particular race possess.

 

The trouble I'm having deciding how much this limitation should be worth.

 

I suppose the value might depend on what the limitation is applied to. It might be worth -1/4, sort of an inverse form of Inherent. It could also be an interesting limitation for other powers in general, or a power framework, such as a multipower with a reserve that can't be increased, but new slots could be purchased, which should be a fairly hefty limitation, IMO.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

It's not really a limitation at all, on the power; it's a limitation on the character himself, at best. It doesn't limit the power, or its usefulness.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Sounds problematic at best.

 

Could the same abilities be affected positively by Adjustment Powers?

If so, why is this somehow better than spending experience?

 

It really seems like more of a campaign restriction than a character one since an individual character can always have a 'radiation accident'.

 

Example:

Captain Mar-Vell (Marvel Comic's) was given abilities above those of other 'ordinary' Kree warriors.

[tesuji]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

I've recently come up with an idea for a limitation; "Cannot Be Increased With Experience", which means an ability that simply can't improved by adding experience points to it. This could be applied to some of a character's inherent abilities, for example, 'powers' that all members of a particular race possess.

 

The trouble I'm having deciding how much this limitation should be worth.

 

I suppose the value might depend on what the limitation is applied to. It might be worth -1/4, sort of an inverse form of Inherent. It could also be an interesting limitation for other powers in general, or a power framework, such as a multipower with a reserve that can't be increased, but new slots could be purchased, which should be a fairly hefty limitation, IMO.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

its worth nuthin'

 

at chargen if a guy came up to you with his 14d6 EB bought and he said "i did not spend points for 15d6, so how big a lim can i put on the 14d6" you would say no, perhaps smack him, right?

 

same deal if this is 5xp into the campaign.

 

Every trait on the sheet qualifies for the "i spent my other points on something else" modifier... its just not worth anything.

 

usually this thing appears as a multipower steal, where they try and get points off the multipower for "i cannot add more slots later on".

[TikiGawd]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

It doesn't limit the power' date=' or its usefulness.[/quote']That was my first thought. In the short/mid term, it won't really mean much, if anything, given the limited amounts of xp generally earned. However, it seems to me it should be worth something, in the long run.

 

...but when I think about it that way, I think it might just be some fluffy element to be worked out in character.

 

Ok, so maybe I'm just nuts, or my general lack of experience with the hero system is showing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

At best, a GM might judge it to be worth a small Physical Limitation to the character: "Cannot improve certain abilities with XP" (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

I'm going to second Lord Liaden's suggestion. You have Limited the Power - you have Restricted the Character. It's a Physical Limitation Disadvantage.

[JmOz]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

As said above "What about adjustment powers", personaly I would make it a -1/4 modifier to inherent, you will save points because you basicaly get inherent for +0

[CTaylor]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

I'd have to echo others in saying that limitation does not actually limit the power and is worth no points. It limits potential, but not the power. Perhaps a disadvantage could be used instead.

[tesuji]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

As a momentary burst of devils advocate - and a decidely anti-hero-system approach...

 

consider the following.

 

in a typical 12-15d6 supers game one player buys ... wait for it ... a 6d6 Eb.

 

thats it nothing fancy just pays good points, 30 cp maybe 15 cp in an ec, for a 6d6 eb.

 

now that eb is so far below the normal level of effectiveness it is practically useless.

 

so as gm will you -

 

a - let him buy it

b - warn him against it

c - refuse to allow it

d - reduce the cost

e - script in a lot of villains very 2x bulnerable to it (assumes he is the only one with that sfx)

f - other please specify.

 

if d is even an option then "cannot raise with xp" on a power that has higher levels might be worth something. maybe.

 

the potential downside is the campaign will outgrow that power that is "left behind" and so eventually those points will be wasted. its kind of like "independent" in that he is paying for a power he will only use for a while and eventually he wont be able to use it (effectively.)

 

any takers?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

any takers?

Not here... sorry.

 

There's already a "reward" for not increasing any Power beyond it's current level: the points that you save by not raising it. If you also saved points by taking a Limitation that you couldn't raise it, you'd be double-dipping.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Not here... sorry.

 

There's already a "reward" for not increasing any Power beyond it's current level: the points that you save by not raising it. If you also saved points by taking a Limitation that you couldn't raise it, you'd be double-dipping.

 

I agree. And Derek happens to be the last guy who said it, so he gets the quote.

 

Before I answer Tesuji's question, I'll pose one of my own:

 

If you don't get any points for not increasing anything beyond its current level, why should Normal Characteristic Maxima be a disadvantage? Most characters who take this as a disadvantage (rather than as a campaign standard) don't have stats above the maximum, and will never buy them.

 

For those that do, why should the disadvantage be worth any more than the extra points spent on stats above NCM.

 

I've never seen a Brick take this "disadvantage", for some reason...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

As a momentary burst of devils advocate - and a decidely anti-hero-system approach...

 

consider the following.

 

in a typical 12-15d6 supers game one player buys ... wait for it ... a 6d6 Eb.

 

thats it nothing fancy just pays good points, 30 cp maybe 15 cp in an ec, for a 6d6 eb.

 

now that eb is so far below the normal level of effectiveness it is practically useless.

 

so as gm will you -

 

a - let him buy it

 

Sure - it's his character. But:

 

b - warn him against it

 

Absolutely.

 

c - refuse to allow it

 

No. It's his chartacter.

 

d - reduce the cost

 

No - he wants it, he pays for it.

 

e - script in a lot of villains very 2x vulnerable to it (assumes he is the only one with that sfx)

 

Absolutely not - that's like letting him buy a 12d6 EB for the cost of a 6d6 EB. The occasional vulnerable target, maybe.

 

f - other please specify.

 

Suggest he can, if he wishes, either buy the power up with xp or remove it and use the points elsewhere if he does take it and is disappointed with the results.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

A 6d6 EB in a 12-15 DC game is not necessarily worthless. Nor is it necessarily "worth less" than a 6d6 EB in a less powerful game. That's why characters in a 12-15 DC game are given more Character Points to start with. If we scaled the value of powers according to the power level of the game, then all chacaters in all games could start with, say, 100 points.

[CTaylor]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

NCM is a bonus for being within concept and limiting yourself, like multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

NCM is a bonus for being within concept and limiting yourself' date=' like multipower.[/quote']

 

That particular debate has been fought elsewhere. I will repeat that a character who can fly faster than the speed of light, generate laser beams from his eyes, coat his skin in organic steel armor, live forever, breathe underwater and survive in an active volcano is not within any "normal" concept I can fathom, and yet is still easy to construct with the NCM disadvantage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

My Mystic charcter in my bi-weekly Defenders game has a 6D6 Energy Blast, in a game with DCs topping at 15 and normally at 12. I use it on mooks. It's not worth any less than it's actual point total just becase it's half the games standard DCs. There are no plans to increase the DCs of this attack (it's a handgun whose bullets have been magically altered to be less lethal - and the DCs are limited to what a normal guns DCs are).

 

Just as an example of real play version of this discussion.

[CTaylor]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

and yet is still easy to construct with the NCM disadvantage

 

That's because his characteristics are what is normal, not his other abilities. I'm not arguing that NCM ought to be retained in the game, I'm just noting what its purpose and justification is.

[CTaylor]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

If you give any "hero points" or fate points or what have you, this could be a way to compensate characters who deliberately cripple a power: give them one point per adventure arc for each of these powers; but only after people have gotten xps and could have progressed further with the powers they chose not to for rp or character concept reasons.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Thinking about this more ... what kind of inborn racial powers could there be that absolutely cannot be improved by practice or training? Except for powers that are binary in Hero System (you either breathe water or you do not, you have IR vision or you do not), I can't imagine it. People can train themselves to run faster, jump higher ... why not fly faster or get stronger telekinesis?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

At some point there is a practical ceiling -- you can train to get stronger but there is a limit to just exactly how strong one can get. Or how fast one can run. Or any number of things.

 

Perhaps, for whatever reason, this is just that maximum limit that can't be passed.

[Vondy]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

I am in the "campaign restriction" camp. Treat it as de rigueur. If, however, you feel you must give points for it I would recommend following Lord Liaden and Ghost-Angel's suggestion: a small physical limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Whilst I personally think a 6d6 EB that can not be increased over time (assuming you can't just add it to another power, like a MP slot) is worth less than a 6d6 that can be, especially in a game where the starting damage averages at least 6d6 and is likely to increase over time, I don't think, as a matter of practical application, you can put a value on that, and all the other 'below par' powers without going stark staring mad and even then you could just, at a later stage, buy off the limitation and incerase the power with XP anyway.

 

I'm not a fan of metagame power modifiers, even system approved ones: I loathe, for example, most uses of 'megascale'.

[Alibear]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Apart from the wife swap powers?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Opinions wanted on a custom limitation

 

Apart from the wife swap powers?

 

I did say 'most' uses