The Emergence Of Superhumans

[Clonus]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Like the real world' date=' I can imagine that there would be a variety of social systems in existence. Many would be absolute monarchies, some would be theocracies, and there will be democracies, although the notion of an Athenian democracy that was mentioned, where only superhumans have the vote, are some possibilities.[/quote']

 

Which is what I called an "oligarchic republic".

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

The American Revolution could happen. If we posit that the Enlightenment still happened' date=' and also that you get English colonies in America that are operated under the rules of mercantilism, and thus regarded solely as economic resources, and a bit of an out of the way backwater, and not a true part of England, you might see the following: There is resentment in the colonies as native born supers are brought back to England and incorporated into the nobility there, and also at the taxes and restrictive trade laws imposed on them to support England's military forces. Without the nobility around to run things, normals are left to run things for several generations. As the nobility acts crassly and makes things worse, the desire for independence grows. The supers that emerge in America during that period have been taught how badly their peers in England have been handling things, and a lot of them take it to heart and resist the temptation to join the establishment. Independence is declared, and America wins much the same way it did in the real world - by not losing before England gave up, as it has military commitments all across the globe. While supers were integral to the American victory, the Enlightenment ideal of 'all men born equal' has taken hold among the colonists, and resentment against the concept of nobility leads them to democracy. While supers are heavily represented in the government, they never completely dominate it, inspiring normals around the world as the nation improbably survives and thrives without nobility.[/quote']

 

Now that's well said, and it's a good background for how a form of America could happen. Someone please rep this man. I've hit him too recently already.

 

In this world, American supers see themselves as the guardians of peace, patriots raised to view themselves as having a solemn duty to use their powers for supporting what is right and just. In a sense, it would be a form of superhuman Protestantism, a new way for superhumans to look at themselves and their powers.

 

 

Of course' date=' this assumes that the science of heredity and genetics is not much more advanced than in the real world at the time. Since supers can be born of any parents, it seems, and some noble children lack powers, 'All men born equal' takes on a slightly new meaning. While science might later prove it wrong, it would be popular among the masses. And with supers in the 400 point range, a sufficiently motivated mob is still a threat.[/quote']

 

Yes, I'm inclined to think that science does not progress any faster than in the real world. No one has powers at birth, and anyone with the right genes can manifest powers.

 

 

Of course' date=' this assumes that somehow the Americas are colonized in the exact same way as the real world, which I find preposterous. To start with, you'd have Native American superhumans, blunting the Europeans' military edge. I also suspect that contact with the Americas would happen sooner, as crossing the Atlantic would be less daunting for Supers. I also feel that there'd be less colonization in this world, partly because it would be harder to displace the natives, but also because there would be different economic incentives in such a world. In the real world, a lot of economic output is required for the upkeep of armies and navies. In superworld, you need much less, as you don't have a large standing army and your navy is much cheaper without the need for large ships-of-the-line (let's face it - large, slow ships are easy pickings for supers, so warships will be small, fast, and lightly armed). In the real world, military forces can be sustained at 1% of the total population, and can peak higher during total war, nearing 20% for Russia in WW2. But in superworld, you're looking at .001% of the population, max, as the military force of the nation, and a smaller budget for warships and artillery as well.[/quote']

 

You raise some excellent points here, and I'll try and take them in order.

 

Far-travelling superhumans probably would cause an earlier discovery of the Americas, but the numbers of superhumans based on population distribution would probably not be a match for the numbers that Europe and Asia would generate.

 

Colonization of America could happen for the desire of normals to better their lives once word gets out (farmland for the taking). Superhumans could also see the colonies as an opportunity to gain their own fiefdoms without waiting for parents to pass on.

 

 

Actually' date=' this is an interesting point that I just noticed, but superworld has historically lower taxes than in the real world, since it doesn't need as much money for the military. I'm not even sure how that would affect things, but I'm sure it would.[/quote']

 

Lower taxes and a mercantile culture could produce quite an interesting mix. There could be an even wealthier culture as a result.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

One more question for Steve:

 

In this setting, how do trained normals fit in? Is there a place for Batman or Nighthawk or any of the other 'normals' that lack powers but are still able to fight on the same level as the powered folk? Or do the rules of the universe prohibit such characters? You mentioned weaponmasters earlier, but its hard to imagine how they'd be recognized as superhuman compared to bricks and blasters.

 

Trained normals would probably not be a fit for this universe. When I was speaking of martial artists and weaponmasters, I was thinking of mutants who have enhanced physical abilities augmented by training.

[OddHat]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Yes' date=' I'm inclined to think that science does not progress any faster than in the real world. No one has powers at birth, and anyone with the right genes can manifest powers.[/quote']

 

Science doesn't advance as fast as in the real world, maybe not at all. Technology may advance, but Science is screwed. You have people flying, time travelling, creating matter and energy out of nothing, building impossibile devices based on idiotic theories, lifting hundreds of tons in complete defiance of physics and even common sense. You have people who really can negotiate with Thunder Storms. The Scientific Method goes into the crapper. It's a world of Miracles, Curses, Gods and Demons. People who believe you can make sense of it past finding the appropriate god or spirit and striking a bargain are clearly barking mad.

 

A few brave souls may keep technology going forward, especially when the odd Super Genius deigns to share something with his peers and servants, but the Scientific Method will probably never mean anything in a world where you really can cure disease by finding a miracle man.

[Clonus]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Trained normals would probably not be a fit for this universe. .

 

So, once again, there's no real future for democracy because commoners don't have the power to make it happen...except...in countries where the Church monopolizes superhumans you could possibly have elected civil leaders. But of course they'd have to be sure not to cross the Church

[novi]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Science doesn't advance as fast as in the real world, maybe not at all. Technology may advance, but Science is screwed. You have people flying, time travelling, creating matter and energy out of nothing, building impossibile devices based on idiotic theories, lifting hundreds of tons in complete defiance of physics and even common sense. You have people who really can negotiate with Thunder Storms. The Scientific Method goes into the crapper. It's a world of Miracles, Curses, Gods and Demons. People who believe you can make sense of it past finding the appropriate god or spirit and striking a bargain are clearly barking mad.

 

A few brave souls may keep technology going forward, especially when the odd Super Genius deigns to share something with his peers and servants, but the Scientific Method will probably never mean anything in a world where you really can cure disease by finding a miracle man.

 

Perhaps, depends on the exact setting, and how you define science. Science is based on observation of the world and trying to find patterns and causes behind those observations. Remember, for the longest time, the sun, the moon, and the stars revolved around the Earth, because that best fit the observations that could be made. Then bored noblemen made detailed observation of the movements of the planets, and realized that things would make more sense if planets went around the sun. Or another case, but everyone knows that a rock falls faster than a feather, so logically gravity pulls things at different rates. Until people discovered wind resistance...

 

My point is, if powers work consistently and with fixed rules, you'll still get science, even if it doesn't completely match the real world. The more things that work inconsistently, and the more often impossible things happen, the less scientific inquiry occurs.

 

As to technology, you'd need fantastic occurrences to be awful widespread before it interfered with technology, because the muggle masses are going to need all the normal stuff in life to happen whether or not the local wizard is around.

[Dronf]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

The farther back, the more the effect. Changes wouldn't "damp down" they'd accelerate.

 

One 100-point flying blaster at Marathon and there's no Greece, no Rome. Persians and the following empires rule Eastern Europe, Carthage and its following empires rule Western Europe. No Christianity or Islam either. Gunpowder stays a propellant for rockets, guns aren't used, etc. etc.

[novi]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Yes' date=' I could see the initial group of superhumans working within the existing systems, as champions or advisors. In places such as China or India, there might be more loyalty to the existing rulers than you'd find in the West. The West was more balkanzied than China, but I'm not sure about India's structure at the time.[/quote']

 

My understanding is that to a certain extent, despite the changes in emperors and invading Mongols, the Chinese state bureaucracy remained fairly stable for over 2000 years, part of the reason for why there has been a recognizable Chinese state for much of written history.

 

India, though, looks to be about as volatile as Europe, with a lot of various sized states at times, and large empires that only lasted a century or three at others.

 

Yes, that is how I would see it happening. China and India getting the largest share might change the development of civilization to a more Eastern feel as the centuries roll on, but they might have more stasis built into their cultures than the West.

 

Africa and the Americas would seem to be ripe for the plucking by the Asians and Europeans.

 

True, but you have to remember logistics here. First you need ocean worthy vessels, and then you need advanced enough navigation to cross them, and lastly, the voyage can take months, one way. And once you get there, then what? Hunter-gatherers, pastoralists, or simple farmers aren't terrible worth conquering; there's no money in it. You can displace them and develop an economic infrastructure, but that's a different ball game.

 

And to a certain extent, trading with the locals is often easier and more profitable.

 

Those are good points to be considered.

 

In the West, there are also the Crusades to consider. Adding superhuman crusaders to the mix on both sides could make for interesting developments. Or it could cause a stalemate among superhuman forces, negating their effect.

 

I'm not sure and don't have the number, but I imagine they end up canceling each other out.

[novi]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Far-travelling superhumans probably would cause an earlier discovery of the Americas, but the numbers of superhumans based on population distribution would probably not be a match for the numbers that Europe and Asia would generate.

 

Colonization of America could happen for the desire of normals to better their lives once word gets out (farmland for the taking). Superhumans could also see the colonies as an opportunity to gain their own fiefdoms without waiting for parents to pass on.

 

While the total number of supers in the new world would be lower, you also have to consider how many supers can be spared while maintaining adequate military defense back home. Sure, England may have 300 supers compared to the 30 in all of North America, but France and Spain also have several hundred supers each, so England can't deploy more than, say, 30 of its own supers for adventures around the entire world.

 

Another consideration is that earlier contact would give the Natives a better chance. Old world diseases would devastate their populations as in the real world, but a few things may happen. One thing is that supers and carriers, having previously described as more healthy, would likely resist the diseases better, increasing the percentage of superhumans among Native Americans. I also imagine that this world would not see the same rush of colonization immediately following the discovery of the New World. If early voyages are enabled by superhumans, you probably won't see many voyages by normals until much later. So this gives the native populations a few centuries to recover and provides a period for trade with the old world. So there's a much more prepared population to object to immigrating foreigners. And some of the farming societies might be interested in advanced old world methods, increasing their populations significantly.

 

And while normals might desire free farmland they can own, they also might fear leaving the protective zone of friendly supers. It's harder to say how many would emigrate without knowing they outgun the natives.

 

But it's your call; depends on how much you want this world to resemble our world.

[novi]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I'm essentially looking at mutant types of powers, so the range of abilities could be fairly represented by looking through CU write-ups of those with the Distinctive Features: Mutant.

 

I have been thinking about the different powersets and how common they would be. A first draft view of this would be:

 

• Bricks - Very Common
  
• Energy Projectors - Common
  
• Martial Artists/Weaponmasters - Uncommon
  
• Mentalists - Rare
  
• Metamorphs - Rare
  
• Speedsters - Rare
  

 

Martial artists and weaponmasters would have physical enhancements from mutant abilities, but they would not have the raw physical power of a brick or energy projector. Gadgeteers and powered armor types, I'm not sure how to place. I'm looking at creating an Earth where superpowers are inborn or inborn and enhanced through training (martial artists/weaponmasters).

 

I don't know, part of me has trouble seeing the MAs/weaponmasters in this mix. Part of it is just that in some cases, they might not be recognizable as superpowers. Another is that the development of fighting styles that match up with them. It seems that they would be hard to develop, just based on the rarity of potential students. It is helped a little because fighting styles would likely be limited to within an ethnic group rather than spread around the entire world, but it still seems weird to me.

 

Also, is the distributions of powers consistent around the world? Cases can be made either way.

[caris]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I don't know, part of me has trouble seeing the MAs/weaponmasters in this mix. Part of it is just that in some cases, they might not be recognizable as superpowers. Another is that the development of fighting styles that match up with them. It seems that they would be hard to develop, just based on the rarity of potential students. It is helped a little because fighting styles would likely be limited to within an ethnic group rather than spread around the entire world, but it still seems weird to me.

 

Also, is the distributions of powers consistent around the world? Cases can be made either way.

 

Steve in a later post indicated that by MAs/Weaponmasters he was talking about "enhanced" humans that augment their lower levels of super powers with greater fighting skills or weapons. In other words they are mainly made up of what other people think of as the "hybrid" Martial Artists and Weapon Masters. For example, Marvel's Beast (Martial Brick) through much of his career would fit here.

[caris]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Some of the important things to consider is not just what archetypes are generally available, but the specific powers that show up, when they show up and how powerful are they. Someone with Storm's powers (mainly an energy projector) is going to have a significantly different impact than say someone with Cycolops powers (also an energy projector, but without as much non-combat impact).

 

Specifically, what powers and effects do you beleive are or are not possible. Most super powers fall in the category of "magic tech" they do not have a strong grounding in scientific principles to support them. So how far into the realm of "psuedo science" are you willing to go. Is precognition possible? Time travel? Extra Dimensional Movement? Mass Teleportation?

 

Really pay attention to things that don't have a direct combat impact and consider when where and how they show up. If you are allowing healing/bio control type powers, than it is possible that someone who can influence which sperm fertalizes an egg in a meaningful way. That person would be able to have a radical impact on the number and type of supers in an area. Some one who has a power that can improve the food supply, health or technology of an area and uses it that way is probably going to have a bigger long term impact than someone that limits how they use their power.

 

Another consideration is the distribution of the types of powers. Yeah, speedsters are rare, but did it just happen that the first two speedsters happened to be in what is modern day New Zealand, so most speedsters are also Maori?

 

The same goes for power levels. Presumably really high power levels are rare too. What if the first really cosmic god powerful super (assuming there was one and only one in the original batch of supers) was an Inuit?

 

Assuming that you do end up with at least one culture with a class/caste system based on super powers how would it resolve itself? Class/caste is determined by power set (Mentalists are priests, Bricks warriors, Energy Projectors crafters)? By raw use of power (i.e. he who defeats you in battle is your superior until you can defeat him)? By some other measure of power? Is it possible to not have enough "super power" (afterall cyberkinetics really doesn't do you any good until there are computers to interface with psychically)?

 

You also have to consider personalities. Is it likely that people with powers will mainly use them to improve their own life? Yes, but it doesn't follow that they would necessarily want or expect to rule those around them. The local brick just might demand a tribute of food, wine, and entertainment (and I'm using that word extremely broadly) without requiring that everyone does what the brick says, or listening to the brick when it comes to resolving disputes that doesn't involve the brick. Of course, there will also be supers, and from what you are saying I would assume they would be in the majority, that would veiw themselves as the "champions" of the area and would support someone that they perceived to be good leaders.

 

Finally, it is also always fun to imagine specific historical figures with super powers. How would the world be different if Joan of Arc was a fire weilding energy projector? If the Holy Roman Emporor Otto III had became a brick as part of the event? If Machiavelli was an immortal?

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Science doesn't advance as fast as in the real world, maybe not at all. Technology may advance, but Science is screwed. You have people flying, time travelling, creating matter and energy out of nothing, building impossibile devices based on idiotic theories, lifting hundreds of tons in complete defiance of physics and even common sense. You have people who really can negotiate with Thunder Storms. The Scientific Method goes into the crapper. It's a world of Miracles, Curses, Gods and Demons. People who believe you can make sense of it past finding the appropriate god or spirit and striking a bargain are clearly barking mad.

 

A few brave souls may keep technology going forward, especially when the odd Super Genius deigns to share something with his peers and servants, but the Scientific Method will probably never mean anything in a world where you really can cure disease by finding a miracle man.

 

Maybe the science issue shows I am approaching this from the wrong direction.

 

As far as powers go, there are limits I am formulating. Extra-dimensional movement is not going to be available, so no time travel or visits to Faerie. Same for FTL travel. Life Support will not allow for Immortality and will be limited to the 400 year lifespan category at maximum. Superman when he was reset by Byrne post-Crisis would probably be a good upper limit for what I am trying to simulate.

 

Maybe another way for me to approach it is to say I would like modern technology and science to be available in the alternate present, and how could I reasonably present that in a world that has had superhumans for 1000 years?

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

The farther back, the more the effect. Changes wouldn't "damp down" they'd accelerate.

 

One 100-point flying blaster at Marathon and there's no Greece, no Rome. Persians and the following empires rule Eastern Europe, Carthage and its following empires rule Western Europe. No Christianity or Islam either. Gunpowder stays a propellant for rockets, guns aren't used, etc. etc.

 

I suppose it could work out that way, but I don't mind admitting I'm steering history to an alternate present where some things remain the same (TV and telephones exist). But other things would be wildly different (superhumans in large numbers and having been openly around for centuries).

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

While the total number of supers in the new world would be lower' date=' you also have to consider how many supers can be spared while maintaining adequate military defense back home. Sure, England may have 300 supers compared to the 30 in all of North America, but France and Spain also have several hundred supers each, so England can't deploy more than, say, 30 of its own supers for adventures around the entire world.[/quote']

 

That's true. It also gives a reason why an American Revolution could occur. The Old World superhumans are tied up eyeing each other and can't break off easily to go deal with a rebellion on the other side of the world.

 

Such a rebellion could also provide an impetus for a modified French Revolution, with superhumans hidden from the nobility providing enough muscle to overthrow the monarchy. If America rebelled succesfully, then they may have a chance too.

 

 

Another consideration is that earlier contact would give the Natives a better chance. Old world diseases would devastate their populations as in the real world, but a few things may happen. One thing is that supers and carriers, having previously described as more healthy, would likely resist the diseases better, increasing the percentage of superhumans among Native Americans. I also imagine that this world would not see the same rush of colonization immediately following the discovery of the New World. If early voyages are enabled by superhumans, you probably won't see many voyages by normals until much later. So this gives the native populations a few centuries to recover and provides a period for trade with the old world. So there's a much more prepared population to object to immigrating foreigners. And some of the farming societies might be interested in advanced old world methods, increasing their populations significantly.

 

And while normals might desire free farmland they can own, they also might fear leaving the protective zone of friendly supers. It's harder to say how many would emigrate without knowing they outgun the natives.

 

But it's your call; depends on how much you want this world to resemble our world.

 

You make good points again. If a wandering flyer makes it to America by the 12th century, it doesn't mean a land rush will occur. The natives might have more say in the formation of the country, alliances could form with colonists and trade enjoyed, and other such changes to the timeline.

 

If there are more powerful superhumans among the natives than those that can be spared from Europe, it gives America time to develop away from the guiding hand of Europe.

 

And centuries later, the Wild West might be really wild. Imagine a saloon brawl with superpowers. Or the town marshal is a hired superhuman with energy projection abilities.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I don't know, part of me has trouble seeing the MAs/weaponmasters in this mix. Part of it is just that in some cases, they might not be recognizable as superpowers. Another is that the development of fighting styles that match up with them. It seems that they would be hard to develop, just based on the rarity of potential students. It is helped a little because fighting styles would likely be limited to within an ethnic group rather than spread around the entire world, but it still seems weird to me.

 

Also, is the distributions of powers consistent around the world? Cases can be made either way.

 

As tempting as it is to say that powers are evenly distributed, it seems more likely that genetics would have clusters of similar types nearby each other, since there wasn't a lot of mobility in that time. Most people lived and died within a few miles of where they were born.

 

Catalan of the CU might be a common example of the type of Brick that occur in an area, for example.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Some of the important things to consider is not just what archetypes are generally available' date=' but the specific powers that show up, when they show up and how powerful are they. Someone with Storm's powers (mainly an energy projector) is going to have a significantly different impact than say someone with Cycolops powers (also an energy projector, but without as much non-combat impact). [/quote']

 

I will have to sit down and think through categories of powers that would be available. Going through the Gestalt sourcebook would probably be a good example to work from here.

 

 

Specifically' date=' what powers and effects do you beleive are or are not possible. Most super powers fall in the category of "magic tech" they do not have a strong grounding in scientific principles to support them. So how far into the realm of "psuedo science" are you willing to go. Is precognition possible? Time travel? Extra Dimensional Movement? Mass Teleportation?[/quote']

 

Well. time travel and EDM are out. I'm eyeing the Stop Sign powers with a critical eye. Summon could still work, depending on the special effect. Mass teleportation and precognition might be possible. A line of oracles would be in line with fantasy and comic books. Mass teleportation does have logistics effects. If a single superhuman can carry food to the front lines in the blink of an eye or evac wounded halfway around the world, it has an effect.

 

 

Really pay attention to things that don't have a direct combat impact and consider when where and how they show up. If you are allowing healing/bio control type powers' date=' than it is possible that someone who can influence which sperm fertalizes an egg in a meaningful way. That person would be able to have a radical impact on the number and type of supers in an area. Some one who has a power that can improve the food supply, health or technology of an area and uses it that way is probably going to have a bigger long term impact than someone that limits how they use their power.[/quote']

 

This is definitely something I am thinking about.

 

 

Another consideration is the distribution of the types of powers. Yeah' date=' speedsters are rare, but did it just happen that the first two speedsters happened to be in what is modern day New Zealand, so most speedsters are also Maori?[/quote']

 

Yes, it could be interesting to have the genetic luck of the draw on the day the energy wave hits Earth provide pockets of superhumans of similar types. Maybe Filipinos are world class teleporters. How would that affect their society?

 

 

The same goes for power levels. Presumably really high power levels are rare too. What if the first really cosmic god powerful super (assuming there was one and only one in the original batch of supers) was an Inuit?

 

That's an interesting idea. There's no reason why the most powerful superhuman can't be from a small culture. Imagine if it was a Jew. That would give the Christian and Islamic worlds something to consider.

 

 

Assuming that you do end up with at least one culture with a class/caste system based on super powers how would it resolve itself? Class/caste is determined by power set (Mentalists are priests' date=' Bricks warriors, Energy Projectors crafters)? By raw use of power (i.e. he who defeats you in battle is your superior until you can defeat him)? By some other measure of power? Is it possible to not have enough "super power" (afterall cyberkinetics really doesn't do you any good until there are computers to interface with psychically)?[/quote']

 

India is where I would probably set such a culture. It would have an exotic feel to the superhuman culture it develops.

 

 

You also have to consider personalities. Is it likely that people with powers will mainly use them to improve their own life? Yes' date=' but it doesn't follow that they would necessarily want or expect to rule those around them. The local brick just might demand a tribute of food, wine, and entertainment (and I'm using that word extremely broadly) without requiring that everyone does what the brick says, or listening to the brick when it comes to resolving disputes that doesn't involve the brick. Of course, there will also be supers, and from what you are saying I would assume they would be in the majority, that would veiw themselves as the "champions" of the area and would support someone that they perceived to be good leaders.[/quote']

 

Catalan would likely be a good example of such a local "village Brick." The less powerful would sort themselves out beneath those that are more powerful in an early feudal arrangement in Europe. Other cultures would sort out differently.

 

 

Finally' date=' it is also always fun to imagine specific historical figures with super powers. How would the world be different if Joan of Arc was a fire weilding energy projector? If the Holy Roman Emporor Otto III had became a brick as part of the event? If Machiavelli was an immortal?[/quote']

 

An immortal Machiavelli might be quite frightening after living a few hundred years. Your other examples are quite interesting as well.

[OddHat]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Maybe another way for me to approach it is to say I would like modern technology and science to be available in the alternate present, and how could I reasonably present that in a world that has had superhumans for 1000 years?

 

You can do it any way you like; it's your setting.

 

In my own games, Supers have been around as long as humans (longer if you include Aliens), with the latest open activity of Supers going back to the late 1800s. Technology in many areas is slightly more advanced than Real World Tech, especially in the military of wealthy nations, but most things remain the same. This is Comic Book Default. I justify it by:

 

• 1) maintaining a distinction between Mad Science (often unrepeatable experiments, Alien tech that can't be duplicated, bizarre devices that should not work yet function, etc) and real science.
   
  2) Pointing out that just because something is possible doesn't mean it's commercially viable. A Mad Scientist may invent a real-tech flying car (as has been done, more or less, in the real world), but if they cost tens of millions of dollars each to manufacture they're only going to be available to the smallest markets until ways to produce them at a reasonable price are found. Even then, they may never be licensed for use.
   
  3) Including in the setting a number of competing groups, all of whoch have reasons for keeping technology from public use. These groups include key campaign specific conspiracies and organizations, including governments trying to keep dangerous technologies under control.
   
  4) "That's how it worked out." Many things in the real world make very little sense on casual observation, and on closer examination you find multiple contradictory theories as to why such-and-such is thus-and-so. If some things in your campaign setting don't make sense to the player, maybe the player just doesn't have all the facts.

 

For science and tech to be at a level you want, I'd assume that most real world scientists lived their lives in your setting just as they did in the real world; they just worked for the Supers rather than the real world Nobles. Super Geniuses doubtless pushed things along, but any number of social factors could have slowed them down at about the same rate, from repression of research and technologies to mass purges of the educated classes (something not uncommon in real history) to the lack of a tradition of public access to information and education (if only the children of the Elite are allowed access to education, progress will be glacial, even with the odd genius popping up now and then).

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Stargate had an "Ancient Gene" that some had and some didn't. If you had the right genetic codes' date=' the higher technology of the Gate Builders worked for you; of not, it was so much junk.[/quote']

 

twenty five years ago, we called it Fringeworthy.

[Steve]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

You can do it any way you like; it's your setting.

 

In my own games, Supers have been around as long as humans (longer if you include Aliens), with the latest open activity of Supers going back to the late 1800s. Technology in many areas is slightly more advanced than Real World Tech, especially in the military of wealthy nations, but most things remain the same. This is Comic Book Default. I justify it by:

 

1) maintaining a distinction between Mad Science (often unrepeatable experiments, Alien tech that can't be duplicated, bizarre devices that should not work yet function, etc) and real science.

 

I've given the science and mad science issue some more thought, and I think I've come up with a good solution that works pretty well.

 

Science and technological development pretty much matched the real world until the 18th century. Up until then, men like DaVinci and Newton were the only type of scientists and technologists that the world knew. But in the 18th century, a new mutation of the superhuman gene came about, creating a new type of superhuman, the wondermaker. The concept of a wondermaker I'm borrowing from "Genius: The Transgression".

 

A wondermaker has the ability to alter reality in their vicinty just enough to allow for weird science. DaVinci was an example of a wondermaker who didn't have an activated supergene that would allow his fantastic ideas to function.

 

In the 18th century, the first active superhuman with the wondermaker gene manifested: Benjamin Franklin. His steam-powered battlesuits and other wonders enabled the Americans to successfully deal with the few British superhumans that were able to be sent to deal with the American rebellion. Others manifested across the globe over the next few years, and suddenly the natural-powered superhumans had competition. America became a special country though, as it seemed to have more wondermakers born than other nations. This gave it enough of an edge to maintain parity with nations gifted with natural superhumans.

 

There are limitations to wondermaker technology. Typically, they are non-reproducible items that tend to break down or go berserk when they get into the hands of non-wondermakers. But those with latent wondermaker genes, while they can't create wonders themselves, help to allow wonders to maintain themselves in working order when used by normals. Also, wondermakers tended to isolate themselves in earlier centuries, mainly due to an inability to explain their wonders to normal scientists. So you'd have wondermakers working alone or with a few assistants in mountaintop castles, away on islands, or in isolated villages. Doctor Moreau or Doctor Frankenstein are examples of this isolation.

 

There is also a side-effect created by the existence of the wondermaker gene, the paradigm window. These are gestalts created by the beliefs of those with the wondermaker gene, frequently beliefs that the rest of humanity do not share. So a wondermaker can travel to the North Pole and find a paradigm window that leads to Inner Earth, where dinosaurs dwell. If they build a rocketship and travel to Mars, they could find the paradigm window that leads to the ancient Martian Empire, instead of the barren rock that normal science has shown.

 

And probably the most famous example of a wondermaker on this alternate Earth is a man by the name of Tesla.

[OddHat]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

In the 18th century' date=' the first active superhuman with the wondermaker gene manifested: Benjamin Franklin. His steam-powered battlesuits and other wonders enabled the Americans to successfully deal with the few British superhumans that were able to be sent to deal with the American rebellion.[/quote']

 

I've always liked Franklin as Mad Scientist.

 

It also works well with some of John Adams' apocryphal snide comments about Franklin "hurling lightning bolts" against the British and driving them single handedly from America's shores.

[sinanju]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

For science and tech to be at a level you want' date=' I'd assume that most real world scientists lived their lives in your setting just as they did in the real world; they just worked for the Supers rather than the real world Nobles. Super Geniuses doubtless pushed things along, but any number of social factors could have slowed them down at about the same rate, from repression of research and technologies to mass purges of the educated classes (something not uncommon in real history) to the lack of a tradition of public access to information and education (if only the children of the Elite are allowed access to education, progress will be glacial, even with the odd genius popping up now and then).[/quote']

 

Let's not forget, either, that the state of the art in a given science is a factor too.

 

Give a supergenius a 2009-model integrated circuit. Heck, give him a whole PC. Even if he's smart enough to figure out how it works and to grasp the concept of microscopically small circuits etched into silicon wafers and magnetic disks to contain insanely huge amounts of data and the need for software to operate it all...if he's living in the 19th century he can't reproduce it. The tech base simply doesn't exist.

 

Maybe he can single-handedly bootstrap 19th century England to the level of technology necessary--but he's going to be spending his time on THAT project for a long time to come. He may understand what he needs, but first he has to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools. And even if he's smart enough to do it...Intel's fab facilities cost billions to create. He may not have enough money to do it even if he knows exactly how. Heck, the whole economy might not have enough money depending on how far back you go.

[Dronf]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I've given the science and mad science issue some more thought, and I think I've come up with a good solution that works pretty well.

 

Science and technological development pretty much matched the real world until the 18th century. Up until then, men like DaVinci and Newton were the only type of scientists and technologists that the world knew. But in the 18th century, a new mutation of the superhuman gene came about, creating a new type of superhuman, the wondermaker. The concept of a wondermaker I'm borrowing from "Genius: The Transgression".

 

A wondermaker has the ability to alter reality in their vicinty just enough to allow for weird science. DaVinci was an example of a wondermaker who didn't have an activated supergene that would allow his fantastic ideas to function.

 

In the 18th century, the first active superhuman with the wondermaker gene manifested: Benjamin Franklin. His steam-powered battlesuits and other wonders enabled the Americans to successfully deal with the few British superhumans that were able to be sent to deal with the American rebellion. Others manifested across the globe over the next few years, and suddenly the natural-powered superhumans had competition. America became a special country though, as it seemed to have more wondermakers born than other nations. This gave it enough of an edge to maintain parity with nations gifted with natural superhumans.

 

There are limitations to wondermaker technology. Typically, they are non-reproducible items that tend to break down or go berserk when they get into the hands of non-wondermakers. But those with latent wondermaker genes, while they can't create wonders themselves, help to allow wonders to maintain themselves in working order when used by normals. Also, wondermakers tended to isolate themselves in earlier centuries, mainly due to an inability to explain their wonders to normal scientists. So you'd have wondermakers working alone or with a few assistants in mountaintop castles, away on islands, or in isolated villages. Doctor Moreau or Doctor Frankenstein are examples of this isolation.

 

There is also a side-effect created by the existence of the wondermaker gene, the paradigm window. These are gestalts created by the beliefs of those with the wondermaker gene, frequently beliefs that the rest of humanity do not share. So a wondermaker can travel to the North Pole and find a paradigm window that leads to Inner Earth, where dinosaurs dwell. If they build a rocketship and travel to Mars, they could find the paradigm window that leads to the ancient Martian Empire, instead of the barren rock that normal science has shown.

 

And probably the most famous example of a wondermaker on this alternate Earth is a man by the name of Tesla.

 

IOW, The Schimmelhorn Effect; Or, Supertech Depends On The Supertechnician

[Peregrine]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

Let's not forget, either, that the state of the art in a given science is a factor too.

 

Give a supergenius a 2009-model integrated circuit. Heck, give him a whole PC. Even if he's smart enough to figure out how it works and to grasp the concept of microscopically small circuits etched into silicon wafers and magnetic disks to contain insanely huge amounts of data and the need for software to operate it all...if he's living in the 19th century he can't reproduce it. The tech base simply doesn't exist.

 

Maybe he can single-handedly bootstrap 19th century England to the level of technology necessary--but he's going to be spending his time on THAT project for a long time to come. He may understand what he needs, but first he has to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools. And even if he's smart enough to do it...Intel's fab facilities cost billions to create. He may not have enough money to do it even if he knows exactly how. Heck, the whole economy might not have enough money depending on how far back you go.

 

This would be a candidate for the Quote of the Week thread, but it's relevant here.

 

"A hyperintellect can figure out anything they put their mind to. The key to keeping a hyperintellect from figuring something out is to keep them from putting their mind to it. The best way to do that is to give them something else to put their mind to." - Rod Blaine, Director of PRIMUS (homebrew CU variant setting)

 

On the other hand, the development of electronics in the 20th century followed two parallel paths. One is miniaturization - circuits to vacuum tubes to transistors to semiconductors to - ?. The other path is algorithmic - what can be done with electrical circuits, dependent on complexity but independent of scale. Thus, if someone knows what can be done with electronic circuits, they can reproduce the algorithm at any scale of electronics. The larger the scale, of course, the more space and power the circuits will require.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Emergence Of Superhumans

 

I read an article once which pointed out that if you dropped a 1980's era calculator back into the 1950's, nobody - not even the greatest minds on Earth - would be able to figure out how the microprocessor worked. They might be able to figure out what it does but they simply lacked the basic technology to analyze it. To them, a microprocessor would be nothing more than a bit of silicon with some strange impurities. Even with a knowledge of transistors (bleeding edge in the early 50's) they'd never figure out how the chip worked. Sometimes (often, actually) science has to wait until technology catches up with it.

 

Seems to me a lot of "supergenius-class" or alien tech might be in the same boat.