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Lord Liaden

6E Rules changes confirmed so far

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During Steve Long's chat of Wednesday, June 3, Steve revealed several details of HERO System elements which will definitely change, or not change, for the upcoming Sixth Edition. People who were at the chat have responded to individual questions regarding those changes here on the forums, so the information has been filtering out piecemeal to the general community; but I thought it would be helpful to post all of it in one place for people who can't wait until Sixth Edition is published. ;)

 

None of what follows is speculation. It's all been confirmed by Steve Long as definitely happening, although in some cases Steve didn't elaborate on specifics. As new information comes to light I'll add to or clarify this list. I welcome anyone else who wishes to add data that they're aware of to this thread, but only if it's been confirmed by Steve or another DoJ staff member.

 

And so, on to 6E:

 

----------------------

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

 

No changes to the Speed Chart.

 

Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with a Talent, Striking Appearance, which a given group can choose to use in their game if they want a character's appearance to have a mechanical effect.

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

 

Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.

 

Perception will still be based on INT.

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

 

Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Toolkitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.

 

Seduction Skill will be renamed Charm.

 

No new Skills will be added, although a couple have been "tweaked" (no more details yet).

 

Package Deal will be renamed Template

 

Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.

 

Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.

 

Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage, as they are in 5E.

 

The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

 

Nothing has changed about the way STR adds to Hand-To-Hand Killling Attack damage.

 

Increased reach for larger-than-normal beings and weapons will not necessarily require Stretching -- no further details yet.

 

The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power (no value given). Aside from GM oversight there will be no restrictions on what Unified Power can be applied to.

 

Damage Shield is going to be "different" -- no details yet.

 

There will be another, more granular way to make a Power ECV-targeted than using the BOECV Advantage. No specifics given, but it involves breaking the Advantage into its separate components (i.e. ECV Attack Roll, Line Of Sight, etc.) and "reassembling" them to make them more flexible (and simpler according to Steve). Steve implied that he's used this approach for other elements of the system.

 

Disadvantages are being renamed Complications, and Psychological Limitations will become Psychological Complications.

 

There will be a single index, printed in both 6E rulebooks, with a letter code before each number to indicate which book it refers to.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

:thumbup::celebrate Hourrah !

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

  • The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."
  • No changes to the Speed Chart.
  • Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.
  • All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.
  • Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.
  • All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.
  • OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.
  • Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.
  • Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.
  • Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Tool-kitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Toolkitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.
  • Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.
  • Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.
  • Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage.
  • The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.
  • You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.
  • The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.
  • The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.

My reaction:

  • The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."
    No Opinion
  • No changes to the Speed Chart.
    No Opinion
  • Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.
    Was hoping for something more, but not sure what. (8^D)
  • All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.
    Liked Hexes, but no big deal
  • Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.
    No Opinion
  • All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.
    Thumbs Up
  • OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.
    A Completely Unexpected Change... Thumbs Up
  • Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.
    Thumbs Up
  • Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.
    Thumbs Up
  • Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Tool-kitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Tool-kitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.
    No Opinion
  • Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.
    Thumbs Up
  • Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.
    Ten Thumbs Up... Something Needed To Be Done
  • Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage.
    No Change?... No Opinion
  • The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.
    Would Prefer Another Solution... Unsure On This One... Might Work Better
  • You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.
    Added Complication... Unsure
  • The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.
    Thumbs Up
  • The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.
    Thumbs Up

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

  • Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage. Unexpected Change.... Thumbs Up

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, Christopher. I didn't mean to imply that there was a change from 5E -- the exact opposite, in fact.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment, Christopher. I didn't mean to imply that there was a change from 5E -- the exact opposite, in fact.

I thought you meant that Normal Damage is applied vs Normal/Killing would be separate which would simplify things. I now see that a completely new rule is replacing the old one concerning that.

 

I'll change my reaction to no opinion now that it is more clear.

 

- Christopher Mullins

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

 

This could have changed without bothering me, I'm happy with it staying the same

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

 

Unfortunate but not a serious problem.

 

Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.

 

Pointless significant change to the game rules; nothing is added by this and it makes all previous character sheets and builds obsolete for nothing more than a whim.

 

All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

 

Doesn't sound very good but I'll have to see what is done. The biggest problem with this is that it is such a significant departure from a decades-old massive success it seems unwise and totally negates the value of previous builds.

 

OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

 

Less traumatic a change from above, but it seems odd to me that being agile and strong willed now has no effect on your combat and mental combat ability. Putting it mildly.

 

Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.

 

Why not, every edition pushes the point value up higher. By 8th edition we'll have 1000 point Champions characters as the suggested base.

 

Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

 

Great change, that helps reduce the effectiveness of strength considerably. Dumping damage would have been even better, and more in line with the "stats have no tangible combat effect" shift of this edition.

 

Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.

 

I always thought Find Weakness was weird anyway, perhaps a system of doubling advantage values for Armor Piercing to continue halving defenses would be a good addition.

 

The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.

 

how will this affect the hit location chart, I wonder? The x5 for head was there because on a stun multiple roll you could get a 5, will the max bonus be reduced to 3?

 

You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

 

That's a pretty significant change, and it reduces the power and effectiveness (and scariness) of killing attacks quite a bit. For normal games that makes guns and swords much less of a concern.

 

The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.

 

Can't really comment on that other than to say I never really liked Elemental Control. I did like the attempts to make a unified power framework in the 6th edition but they were super complex and even more confusing than the present system. I still think a skill tree style framework should be added.

 

I'd also really really like to see a power framework that made it possible to build martial arts-style constructs for other groups of abilities. Martial Arts are a de facto power framework that only works for them, without any of the build math shown.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

That's a pretty significant change, and it reduces the power and effectiveness (and scariness) of killing attacks quite a bit. For normal games that makes guns and swords much less of a concern.

 

This isn't as big a change as it might appear at first. Remember, it's only the STUN Damage from KA that will be blocked by Normal Defenses -- you'll still need Resistant DEF to stop the BODY damage from getting through. All you ever needed for STUN to be stopped by Normal Defenses under 5E was a single point of RDef; and as Steve Long pointed out during the chat, almost every character from every genre has a little RDef in one form or another.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

None of the thus-far-released changes seem like anything that would make me want to "upgrade" to 6E. Quite the contrary. Too much of this looks to me like change for the sake of change. But I'll wait until I've bought and read it before I make any final decision.

 

The only change I like is switching to meters rather than hexes - something I was always amazed wasn't obvious way back in 1982.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

I really havn't played enough to have any real opinions about most of the changes. But this one makes a bit of sense to me.

If you are using minitures just break out your tape measure and use the usual conversion. A lot of the miniture games seem to be doing this

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

This isn't as big a change as it might appear at first. Remember' date=' it's only the STUN Damage from KA that will be blocked by Normal Defenses -- you'll still need Resistant DEF to stop the BODY damage from getting through. All you ever needed for STUN to be stopped by Normal Defenses under 5E was a single point of RDef; and as Steve Long pointed out during the chat, almost every character from every genre has a little RDef in one form or another.[/quote']

 

I also doubt that this changes the current rule about any BODY taken becoming the minimum amount of STUN damage taken.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

None of the thus-far-released changes seem like anything that would make me want to "upgrade" to 6E. Quite the contrary. Too much of this looks to me like change for the sake of change. But I'll wait until I've bought and read it before I make any final decision.

 

The only change I like is switching to meters rather than hexes - something I was always amazed wasn't obvious way back in 1982.

 

I think in 1982, there was still a pretty strong attachment between RPGS and miniature wargames.

 

I think my group will have to take up a collection to get a single copy to see if there's anything worth keeping from the new rules. So far 90% of the listed changes are crap. It'll be able to house rule in any new rules that are somehow, miraculously, worthwhile.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think in 1982, there was still a pretty strong attachment between RPGS and miniature wargames.

 

I think my group will have to take up a collection to get a single copy to see if there's anything worth keeping from the new rules. So far 90% of the listed changes are crap. It'll be able to house rule in any new rules that are somehow, miraculously, worthwhile.

My thought is if there are any actually useful new Powers or Skills in 6E we'll end up "back-porting" them into 5ER.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I wonder if a character built on 5e rules would still cost the same in 6th ed? If not, I hope there's a suggestion for upgrading. I guess we'll see.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I wonder if a character built on 5e rules would still cost the same in 6th ed? If not' date=' I hope there's a suggestion for upgrading. I guess we'll see.[/quote']

 

Given the changes to Characteristics - not a chance.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'd like to echo Toadmaster's thanks for posting this.

 

Th real jaw dropper for me is that OCV/DCV et al are becoming separate characteristics. I suppose that shouldn't be surprising, it is just that I had not thought of them as 'true' figured characteristics, in that you could not buy them up or down directly.

 

Whilst I welcome the change from the point of view of logic, cost and concept realisation, I can see this adding to the complexity of creating characers.

 

I'm surprised about 'normal defences reduce stun from killing attacks, regardless, but it makes sense in that it gets rid of some real inconsistencies (but possibly creates some others).

 

I'm surprised about the 1/2d6 stun multiplier - have to see that in practice before I can form a firm opinion - especially with stun being reduced by normal defences - it seems to me that there mighht be an awful lot of serious wounds people barely feel, which might be difficult to believe. A 1d6+1 KA (say a bullet from a .38 - a pretty common handgun) against a normal will average 7 stun (and 4.5 Body). Good for heroic 'it is only a flesh wound' games, I suppose. At superheroic level, KAs will become almost exclusively for property destruction. Have to see how it works in practice...

 

Everything else seems very positive and exciting - I'm especially pleased there are changes to ECs and we are losing FWeakness, both of which I've struggled to justify. I'm intruiged to see what happens to adjustment powers.

 

I'll be buying 6th as soon as it comes out.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Unofficial 6thEd Changes:

 

1) Bob gets to re-roll.

 

2) Unless another guy named Bob is the GM. In that case, players named Bob must bribe GMs named Bob for the right to re-roll.

 

3) Other players may also bribe the GM for the right to re-roll.

 

4) If two or more players are named Bob, they must compete in a contest of strength to determine which Bob will retain their name for the length of the game. Alternatively, one Bob may bribe the other to retain rights to the name.

 

5) Pizza is now the official Food of Champions. Other genres will have their own official foods. Tentatively, the Hoagie / Subway Sandwich is the Food of Dark Champions, the Hotdog is the Food of Pulp, and the Burrito is the Food of Lucha Libre. Tang is the Drink of Star Hero.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I like all the changes I've seen so far. Well, most of them, some I'm still mulling over. . .

 

Personally I think the system is moving towards being able to create a concept much better than it was before. And it may help break down some barriers about what an Archetype "should" look like.

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

My reaction:

  • The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."
    Good ,I approve
  • No changes to the Speed Chart.
    Good ,I approve
  • Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.
    Good another thing that works fine and didn't need to change

  • All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.
    I like this better

  • Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.
    major suckage but I knew this

  • All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.
    Super major suckage ruins one of my favorite things about the beauty of character creation

  • OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.
    Unbelievable suckage completely bad bad bad. The original way made so much more sense. This is the third of the one two three that kills 6th for me and by way way way the worst.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

  • Suggested starting point totals will be raised to compensate for the change to Characteristics -- no specifics yet.
    good idea

  • Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.
    don't really care but would make my character builds more complicated in most cases

  • Skills will still be calculated from CHAR/5, but there will be an optional "Tool-kitting" note about changing that if desired. Other Tool-kitting notes will appear throughout the rules -- no further details on those.
    OK have to see the toolkitting

  • Some new Powers have been added, and others have been removed. The only one mentioned is Find Weakness, which is being removed. There will be no official way to reduce Defenses below 1/2 as with Armor Piercing.
    I dislike it but seems a pity to drop a tool many people like.

  • Adjustment Powers have been significantly reworked -- no further details yet.
    I'll have to see what they do probably better
  • Energy Blast and Killing Attack will still be separate forms of Damage.
    Works for me

  • The Stun Multiplier for Killing Attack will become a straight 1/2d6. It will still be possible to buy up the Stun Multiplier with Advantages.
    works for me

  • You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.
    like that

  • The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.
    sounds good

  • The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.
    I'll see but I like elemental controls

 

Conclusion some good some bad but the thing that kills it for me is "OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately." Never discussed never mentioned and totally off the wall and contrary to any HERO before. Something this big should have been mentioned more that COM or figured even this is the deal breaker.

 

No way will I ever use that rule. I'll wait until you guys give reviews to tell if there's anything i want but support HERO by buying 5th edition products or maybe genre books.

 

 

Thanks for posting I must say things exceeded my worst fears

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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I'm surprised about the 1/2d6 stun multiplier - have to see that in practice before I can form a firm opinion - especially with stun being reduced by normal defences - it seems to me that there mighht be an awful lot of serious wounds people barely feel' date=' which might be difficult to believe. A 1d6+1 KA (say a bullet from a .38 - a pretty common handgun) against a normal will average 7 stun (and 4.5 Body). Good for heroic 'it is only a flesh wound' games, I suppose. At superheroic level, KAs will become almost exclusively for property destruction. Have to see how it works in practice...[/quote']

 

People have been whinging on for years about the Stun Lotto and how hard it is to make a genuinely Bullet Proof character; the 1/2d6 Stun Multiplier as a default isn't what I would have picked, but it does move killing attacks closer to where they should be in Comic Book and Wuxia campaigns. As long as Hit Locations remain in place, it shouldn't be a problem in gritty campaigns.

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