Fooling Telepathy

[Lucius]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Mental Defenses have visible effects?

 

It's invisible in the sense that someone can't normally just look at you (even with Mental Awareness) and know you have Mental Defense. By taking the Visible Limitation, you can make it obvious.

 

It's visible in the sense that if someone tries Telepathy (or anything else) and fails, they will know you have a defense of some kind. By taking the Invisible Power Effects Advantage you can make it seem to them as if their powers are working even if they're not.

 

Or that's how I view it. If you think someone trying Telepathy on someone with Mental Defenses, and failing, will therefore percieve an ordinary mind such as they expected to see, but not actually be able to read the real thoughts of the defended individual, then obviously in your game there'd be no need to make Mental Defense invisible.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Invisible Palindromedary Defense

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I see absolutely nothing saying the target cannot be affected before the Breakout Roll on his or her next Phase. Here are examples of this that would allow the attacker to take advantage of that time:

 

• Scare the target with a Mental Illusion and a Presence Attack. Or command them to defend themselves vehemently, requiring an Abort.
  
• The attacker may have a second Phase before the target's next one, in which case the attacker can search for answers using Telepathy before the target can make the Breakout Roll.
  
• Take advantage of the Telepathy link to exchange information silently (brief communication is an action that takes no time).
  

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I see absolutely nothing saying the target cannot be affected before the Breakout Roll on his or her next Phase.

What about the Rules? That's exactly what they do say. Do you mean you personally don't see a reason it should be that way?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I just don't like that Mental Powers can be instantly useless after a successful attack.

 

it's like saying "You hit, you did enough damage to get past his defenses, oh wait, he rolled his dodgy-roll and nothing happens" for Energy Blast.

 

it's total BS.

 

 

Well if everyone is right - and they probably are - that mental powers have no effect before the breakout roll then you don't need to even build it with trigger: just straight CSLs with breakout - horribly cheap and effective - they virtually cripple mental powers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

They are right. It bothers me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I see absolutely nothing saying the target cannot be affected before the Breakout Roll on his or her next Phase. Here are examples of this that would allow the attacker to take advantage of that time:

 

• Scare the target with a Mental Illusion and a Presence Attack. Or command them to defend themselves vehemently, requiring an Abort.
  
• The attacker may have a second Phase before the target's next one, in which case the attacker can search for answers using Telepathy before the target can make the Breakout Roll.
  
• Take advantage of the Telepathy link to exchange information silently (brief communication is an action that takes no time).
  

 

If you look at 5ER 117 it says something like 'as the target only react to the effects of a mental power on their next phase they always get a breakout roll before suffering the effects'.

 

This logic doesn't hold for telepathy but the description on page 231 seems to row telepathy back in - information is only obtained AFTER the breakout roll is made.

 

Due to different wording for mental illusions, it seems you can take damage before making a breakout roll. That is if the general rule stated on 117 doesn't over rule it.

 

Still 10 points spent on +5 with breakout rolls seems like abargain.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

The only reference I see to that is:

 

Since he can only react to the effects of a Mental Power on his own Phases' date=' and he gets to make his first Breakout Roll on his first Phase after being successfully attacked with a Mental Power, a character always gets one (but only one) Breakout Roll before he suffers the effects of a Mental Power[/quote']

 

I contend that the first assertion is false (I added emphasis to show what I mean). I pointed out several ways in my last post that a target could react to a Mental Power before his or her next Phase. So I don't hold with the conclusion that the game developer reached when writing down that particular line of reasoning.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

The only reference I see to that is:

 

 

 

I contend that the first assertion is false (I added emphasis to show what I mean). I pointed out several ways in my last post that a target could react to a Mental Power before his or her next Phase. So I don't hold with the conclusion that the game developer reached when writing down that particular line of reasoning.

 

 

Let's say I agree (because that is TRUE), 117 goes on to say that a character always gets one breakout roll before suffering the effects of a mental power. The rule may be based on spurious logic but it wouldn't be the only one

 

Anyway if you read the description for telepathy it seems to support the general rule.

 

I'm going to come up with a new basis for mental powers, so I may be quiet for a few days. Shouldn't be that hard...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

from the FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=breakout+roll&dateString=

 

The absolute rule is that a character can’t be affected by a continuing-effect Mental Power until he gets a chance to make his first Breakout Roll. In the rare instance a mentalist issues a command the character would have to perform before his next Phase after being attacked, such as the Mind Control “Abort!” situation, he gets the Breakout Roll as soon as the order is issued.

...

 

If a campaign uses the Negative Skill Levels rules, could a character buy Negative Skill Levels to reduce a target’s Breakout Roll versus a continuing-effect Mental Power?

 

Yes; those Levels would cost 3 Character Points apiece, and the character would also have to buy the Ranged Advantage for them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Let's say I agree (because that is TRUE), 117 goes on to say that a character always gets one breakout roll before suffering the effects of a mental power. The rule may be based on spurious logic but it wouldn't be the only one

 

Anyway if you read the description for telepathy it seems to support the general rule.

 

I just wouldn't call it a rule. I would call it the game designer pointing out a conclusion of other rules, but missing the fact that one of those axioms is not completely valid. If I were to state that, "You can't act until your next Phase," I happen to know most of the people here would jump down my throat (justifiably) with things like actions that take no time (e.g. Presence Attacks) and Aborts and such.

 

Here's an example. Mentalario uses a Mind Control to tell Scaremaster to intimidate his little buddy Frightful Mouse. Why should Scaremaster wait until his next Phase when he could normally make a big Presence Attack immediately by shouting "BOO!"?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

The absolute rule is that a character can’t be affected by a continuing-effect Mental Power until he gets a chance to make his first Breakout Roll. In the rare instance a mentalist issues a command the character would have to perform before his next Phase after being attacked' date=' such as the Mind Control “Abort!” situation, he gets the Breakout Roll as soon as the order is issued.[/quote']

 

Ah. Okay. So it's not that the target must wait to react, but if they must react sooner, the Breakout Roll comes sooner. I'm with GA; I can't say I like it. It's difficult enough to affect someone with a Mental Power as it is, and the target's Ego has already come into play twice (the ECV attack roll and the required amount of the Effect Roll).

 

That still doesn't quite cover Telepathy though, in any case. The mentalist could speak telepathically to the subject without the subject needing to react ("speaking - soliloquy" being an action that takes no time; I see no reason that can't extend to telepathic "speaking"), well before the target's next Phase.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Ah. Okay. So it's not that the target must wait to react' date=' but if they must react sooner, the Breakout Roll comes sooner. I'm with GA; I can't say I like it. It's difficult enough to affect someone with a Mental Power as it is, and the target's Ego has already come into play [i']twice[/i] (the ECV attack roll and the required amount of the Effect Roll).

 

That still doesn't quite cover Telepathy though, in any case. The mentalist could speak telepathically to the subject without the subject needing to react ("speaking - soliloquy" being an action that takes no time; I see no reason that can't extend to telepathic "speaking"), well before the target's next Phase.

 

 

from the same FAQ link:

 

Regarding Telepathy, the mentalist simply has to wait until the Breakout Roll is failed before he can start rummaging around for facts and memories — just like a character with Mind Control has to wait until the target starts obeying commands.

 

and from the main description of Telepathy from 5er page 231:

 

A character with Telepathy can read or send thoughts.

 

Personally, I can think of no way the act of just sending thoughts can force the target of Telepathy do anything therefore I don't think it would require the use of a Breakout Roll.

 

.....

 

also from the FAQ:

 

What are the effects of Shape Shift to the Mental Sense Group?

 

If a character has Shape Shift (Mental Group), his mind “looks” different to anyone who uses a Mental Sense to perceive his mind. Trying to perceive him with Mind Scan would generally be pointless; he “looks” like some other mind. Telepathy at the “surface thoughts” level would “see” a different mind, but at levels beyond that could still perceive the character’s deeper thoughts, memories, and so forth — Shape Shift doesn’t change those, and does not allow a character to change his Psychological Limitations, either.

[secretID]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Well, that was a kick-butt post by Hyper-man. Shows you what a little research can get you.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

also from the FAQ:

 

What are the effects of Shape Shift to the Mental Sense Group?

 

If a character has Shape Shift (Mental Group), his mind “looks” different to anyone who uses a Mental Sense to perceive his mind. Trying to perceive him with Mind Scan would generally be pointless; he “looks” like some other mind. Telepathy at the “surface thoughts” level would “see” a different mind, but at levels beyond that could still perceive the character’s deeper thoughts, memories, and so forth — Shape Shift doesn’t change those, and does not allow a character to change his Psychological Limitations, either.

 

So back to the O.P.'s question. Given that not even a Mental Shape Shift would cover probes deeper than Surface Thoughts, and really unsure how a Mental Images would/should react to different levels of Telepathy -- How about a Multiform? Multiform does let you change Disads, and IIRC, it is possible for one form to not know what another one knows.

[jtelson]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

So back to the O.P.'s question. Given that not even a Mental Shape Shift would cover probes deeper than Surface Thoughts' date=' and really unsure how a Mental Images would/should react to different levels of Telepathy -- How about a Multiform? Multiform does let you change Disads, and IIRC, it is possible for one form to not know what another one knows.[/quote']

 

When I've built this in the past it's always been a two stager

 

1) Mental Defense, Only vs. Telepathy, Invisible Power Effects (Fail to get information, fail to get the information that you failed to get information)

 

coupled with

 

2) Mental Images (Make a Perception roll to realise information recieved is not real)

 

It tends to be pricey, but not insanely so compared to the ability to pass bad intel to a telepath.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

So back to the O.P.'s question. Given that not even a Mental Shape Shift would cover probes deeper than Surface Thoughts' date=' and really unsure how a Mental Images would/should react to different levels of Telepathy -- How about a Multiform? Multiform does let you change Disads, and IIRC, it is possible for one form to not know what another one knows.[/quote']

 

You could combine mental shapeshift with a scad of mental defence limited to only reduce the level of effect for purposes of determining whether the attack is fooled by the shapeshift:

 

Mental Shapeshift: 10 points (or whatever)

+30 Mental Defence (doesn't subtract from atatck directly but if it would reduce the atatck to the point where only surface memories (or none) could be read, the mental shapeshift is what the attacker sees -1/2. only v telepathy -1/2

 

...which is pretty much what jtelson suggested

[SteveZilla]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Except that a powerful Telepath that routinely rummages through memories and the subconscious would likely be puzzled by never being able to get "deeper" than surface thoughts on this unassuming goon. I know I would be if I were playing such a Telepath.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Except that a powerful Telepath that routinely rummages through memories and the subconscious would likely be puzzled by never being able to get "deeper" than surface thoughts on this unassuming goon. I know I would be if I were playing such a Telepath.

 

With a setup like that, and assuming you had the 'cellular' adder to shapeshift, if the powerful telepath did not 'break through' i.e. get 'deeper' than surface thoughts, I'd probably rule that it 'looked' like he was reading deeper. They may work out that the thuoghts are inconsistent, but that woudl be deduction rather than observation.

[jtelson]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I think the only reason I'd go with images over shapeshift is that there's a simple mechanic for recognising that it's not real built into the power which helps the GM to go, for instance, The Probulatron 3000 TeepBot has had years of experience reading people's innermost thought, he even has KS: People's Inner Most thoughts. I'll give him a plus 2 on his PER roll to realise that these are not a person's innermost thoughts (Well probably make his KS complimentary to the PER roll but you get the idea)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I think the only reason I'd go with images over shapeshift is that there's a simple mechanic for recognising that it's not real built into the power which helps the GM to go' date=' for instance, The Probulatron 3000 TeepBot has had years of experience reading people's innermost thought, he even has KS: People's Inner Most thoughts. I'll give him a plus 2 on his PER roll to realise that these are not a person's innermost thoughts (Well probably make his KS complimentary to the PER roll but you get the idea)[/quote']

 

I agree that it makes for a more interesting construct. One thing occurs to me though - when you see someone who has a 'sight shapeshift' you are fooled - they look exactly like what they are supposed to BUT even just using sight you can still catch them out. They might LOOK like your wife, but they might not move just like her, their gestures and expressions might be out. Shapeshift is not a mimic power - it does not allow you to in some way 'become' that person - it just allows you to fool certain senses, and even 'fooled sight' can still pick up clues - in other words I might well have something like an acting roll opposed by a PER (or deduction) roll. The acting roll would get a substantial bonus because - well - it appears to be that person.

 

Transfering that 'logic' to a mental shapeshift, if the telepath scans the mind of a villain who has just been defeated in bloody combat after trying to murder several innocent civilians and - o take an extreme example - gets the mind of a bored shop girl, even though the mindscape might be flawless, the telepath is still going to work out that there is a problem. They might not be able to 'see through' the false mindscape, but they can certainly work out that it is not a true image.

 

Images also allows that kind of logical 'attack' on an images integrity, the difference being if the PER roll is made, the telpath can actually see through the images and read the real ones. Even if the PER roll is failed - and the mental image looks flawless - if it is the mind of a bored shopgirl in the head of a supervillain a rat will be smelled.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

By the same token - you only know the person who looks like your wife isn't your wife because you know your wife so well.

 

You'd have to know the specific bored shop girl really well (or what a bored shop girl should really be like) do note a difference.

 

A better analogy was if the enemy was Mentally Shapeshifted to a teammate to try and confuse you into passing over his mind as friendly and going on to look for the dangerous perp.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Hmmm...assume I am mentally shapeshifted to appear like SuperDude. TelepathMan is MindScanning an area in which both of us are presently located, and makes his roll successfully. Does he find both of us? If not, how do we determine which of us he found?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

ooh... which one makes for the better game session?

 

Maybe both and he can't tell which until he establishes a connection with one and gets a better chance to examine them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I agree that it makes for a more interesting construct. One thing occurs to me though - when you see someone who has a 'sight shapeshift' you are fooled - they look exactly like what they are supposed to BUT even just using sight you can still catch them out. They might LOOK like your wife' date=' but they might not move just like her, their gestures and expressions might be out. Shapeshift is not a mimic power - it does not allow you to in some way 'become' that person - it just allows you to fool certain senses, and even 'fooled sight' can still pick up clues - in other words I might well have something like an acting roll opposed by a PER (or deduction) roll. The acting roll would get a substantial bonus because - well - it appears to be that person.[/quote']

 

 

 

There is a way to mimic.

It's called the Imitation Adder.

 

...

 

from 5er page 216:

 

—look exactly like someone else without the need for the Disguise Skill (if the Shape Shift has the Imitation Adder)

 

 

and from page 217:

 

Imitation: This +10 Character Points Adder allows a character to shift shape to resemble specific persons. The change only affects the purchased Sense Groups (for example, Shape Shift affecting the Touch and Smell/Taste Groups with Imitation would allow the character to feel and smell exactly like someone else, but not to look exactly like him). The resemblance is extremely accurate; even those who know the imitated character well are unlikely to detect the deception (minimum of -3 to PER Rolls to determine that the character is not who he appears to be).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

There is a way to mimic.

It's called the Imitation Adder.

 

...

 

from 5er page 216:

 

 

 

 

and from page 217:

 

 

Mimic only allows you to be indistinguishable to those senses you have covered - you can look exactly like what you want to. I wouldn't think it covers acting like someone. That might require shapeshift that works against another sense, maybe shapeshift to body language...or an acting roll